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On December 07 2011 14:36 Craton wrote:
Between IE and PD, AD carries get plenty of crit.
False. IE gives 20%, PD gives 30%. That is 50%. 50% crit isn't "plenty of crit" 100% crit is "plenty of crit". If your crit percent is between 0 and 100, more is always better. With IE, the value of crit is increased by 50% as well, and with LW the value of armour pen is devalued, so late game favors crit to a huge degree with these items.
Basically to me, the trade off is between 15 armour penetration or 8% crit on marks. I am going to give the 8% crit a try, because at least to me, it seems like they are better late game. Obviously I wouldn't run this against a really strong lane, but if I have an afk farm type lane, I think crit chance is the way to go.
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In Brood War, when you attack someone from the low ground, you know you're going into that fight at a disadvantage, and you should account for that. Even then, there's other ways to simulate that disadvantage without it being RNG based.
In LoL, you can't do anything about "knowing" there's a 4% crit chance when the enemy comes to lane. You can't meaningfully play around that factor in any realistic way. The problem is not "rng is bad for competitive games". The problem is that you can't really make a choice based off of that randomness.
In Magic: the Gathering, there's a luck of the draw in your deck. But that's part of the strategy - you need to build a good, consistent deck that minimizes the effects of that randomness. What's your strategy in LoL when someone has 4% crit at level 1 when they come to lane and you die because of it? What are you supposed to do to "play around" that crit chance? Riot is removing dodge from the game because it's not a mechanic you can really interact meaningfully with outside of one item. The same problem exists in that random crit at the beginning of the lane.
Yes, crit is an important stat because of the fact that some skills that scale off AD can't crit, only autoattacks can. It's incredibly useful for boosting damage late game without having to make every item worth a crapton of AD to compensate. (Can you imagine if IE turned its crit portion into AD if it was removed?) But that's a meaningful interaction, where you see some characters buying BT instead of IE because one benefits them more.
Anecdote here: I was playing TF vs Twitch. Level 1, I crit him twice in a row and he didn't die...because he dodged the next two attacks in a row. YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH~
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IE doesn't give 20%. AD carries can get more than 1 PD. AD carries are STILL better off not using crit runes.
Don't know what tree you're barking up with all this.
In Brood War, when you attack someone from the low ground, you know you're going into that fight at a disadvantage, and you should account for that. Even then, there's other ways to simulate that disadvantage without it being RNG based.
In BW at least you could have a large enough number of shooting uphill that it would usually balance out so that the intended % of shots missed was missed, but even then you saw streaking in one direction or the other that could change the outcome of the game. In LoL you only a single entity doing all of the attacks and usually at a slower rate, so the earlier the game (when there are less hits) crits are more significant, while later on where your chance to crit is higher and your attack rate is also higher, so numbers tend to be closer to what they should be.
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On December 07 2011 14:52 GreenManalishi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 14:36 Craton wrote:
Between IE and PD, AD carries get plenty of crit. False. IE gives 20%, PD gives 30%. That is 50%. 50% crit isn't "plenty of crit" 100% crit is "plenty of crit". If your crit percent is between 0 and 100, more is always better.
At some point it becomes less gold efficient than spending on attack speed or AD or survivability since all these stats multiply off each other. That number is not necessarily greater than 99, I mean if you have some math to back this up I'll roll with it but I don't see any reason to think that's true without some pretty ironclad mathcrafting
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On December 07 2011 14:53 Craton wrote:
IE doesn't give 20%. AD carries can get more than 1 PD. AD carries are STILL better off not using crit runes.
Don't know what tree you're barking up with all this.
Aw damn, 25%. I just forgot. My tree that I am barking up is why are so many ADs going full flat AD, when crit is going to be better for them after their 1st trip back to town. I think that crit runes have been forgotten about since armour penetration was so superior, and then flat AD got a huge buff when armour penetration was nerfed, and no one has bothered to look at crit runes as being viable.
I think a combination of crit marks, armour seals, flat AD quints, and either scaling or flat MR glyphs would be a really strong setup on like Vayne.
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On December 07 2011 15:01 GreenManalishi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 14:53 Craton wrote:
IE doesn't give 20%. AD carries can get more than 1 PD. AD carries are STILL better off not using crit runes.
Don't know what tree you're barking up with all this. Aw damn, 25%. I just forgot. My tree that I am barking up is why are so many ADs going full flat AD, when crit is going to be better for them after their 1st trip back to town. I think that crit runes have been forgotten about since armour penetration was so superior, and then flat AD got a huge buff when armour penetration was nerfed, and no one has bothered to look at crit runes as being viable. I think a combination of crit marks, armour seals, flat AD quints, and either scaling or flat MR glyphs would be a really strong setup on like Vayne.
i dont like crit runes on ranged AD kus it royally fucks with my last hitting
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On December 07 2011 14:57 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 14:52 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 14:36 Craton wrote:
Between IE and PD, AD carries get plenty of crit. False. IE gives 20%, PD gives 30%. That is 50%. 50% crit isn't "plenty of crit" 100% crit is "plenty of crit". If your crit percent is between 0 and 100, more is always better. At some point it becomes less gold efficient than spending on attack speed or AD or survivability since all these stats multiply off each other. That number is not necessarily greater than 99, I mean if you have some math to back this up I'll roll with it but I don't see any reason to think that's true without some pretty ironclad mathcrafting
There are no diminishing returns to gaining more crit chance. I agree that after a certain point it doesn't make sense to continue building crit items, since you will gain more from flat AD, attack speed, or crit damage (if you don't have IE yet) but that isn't really what we are talking about, my point was that gaining 8% more crit from runes is just as good whether you are moving from 0% or 50% as long as all other stats are being held constant.
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PEOPLE NEED TO STOP USING THE TERM DIMINISHING RETURNS WHEN TALKING ABOUT THIS GAME.
It just sparks a huge debate in which you realize everyone agrees and is just using different terms (and often incorrectly).
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Hot damn, Soraka mid is strong. Played two games, 10/3/9 and 12/2/2. You just can't be pushed out of lane, your silence makes you win every trade, and you can push like a boss when you need to. You dominate ranged ADs because of your Heal and you dominate AP carries because of your passive + silence.
R > E > Q > W
DRing, CDR Boots, Rylai's, WotA
Haven't made it further than that, I think I would get an Abyssal Scepter next? Or maybe a Deathcap.
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Oh wow I can jungle blitz easily, I'm lovin the new jungle 
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as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find.
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It's probably better in every conceivable way, just be glad it isn't a regular skill.
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on people like Cait you benefit more from AD and armor pen runes because of your abilities. I think going AD marks is bad anyways. armor pen is still the best because in lane, if you're facing a ranged AD and support, your targets will have low armor.
random crits might give you more kill opportunities but the unreliability and the fact that its super annoying to last hit at tower really turns me off crit runes.
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On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing.
Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? There is a reason why you look to balance your damage multipliers, but looking at conventional builds crit runes are going to be stronger than flat AD when damage exceeds 100.
I am just theorycrafting here, it seems odd to me that lots of AD carries are running flat AD runes now because it gives them a small advantage at level 1,when crit runes so quickly surpass the strength of flat AD. I have had crit runes shelved since I used to jungle old Tryndamere, and I am just trying to think of a way to use them again.
Edit: I agree that Caitlyn is not the best example of a carry that would benefit from crit chance. Any hero with a skill that has a built in damage component that cannot crit, armour penetration is definitely optimal. Tristana is probably the best example of a hero that would benefit from crit runes, since she has a built in attack speed steroid and no AD scaling skills.
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On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers?
Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude.
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yeah I can see it working on Tristana. get a crit, jump on them and burst them down. if I had crit chance runes I'd try it out.
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Crit runes in lane are bad, you have to rely on rng to outharass your opponent, it doesn't scale with abilities, it can fuck up your cs and a single crit can fuck up your lanecontrol.
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United States4053 Posts
On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude.
Hmm let's see. Hopefully I've done this right.
Tristana at level 18, I'll calculate 1 average autoattack. AD Quints for 6.75 AD (iirc). 21 in offense, so +3 AD, +4% crit, +10% crit damage, 10% arpen, 6 arpen from masteries.
Assuming enemy has 100 armor:
1 Dblade, Zerkers, IE, PD, PD:
Crit reds (+8.37% crit): 407.6
Arpen reds (+15 arp): 408.2
1 Dblade, Zerkers, BT, PD, LW:
Crit reds: 253.1
Arpen reds: 250.7
Assuming enemy has 40 armor:
1 Dblade, Zerkers, IE, PD, PD:
Crit reds: 519.2
Arpen reds: 528.2
1 Dblade, Zerkers, BT, PD, LW:
Crit reds: 322.4
Arpen reds: 324.3
The arp reds do a bit more consistent damage lategame, but the crit runes can be deadly in lane if you get a lucky crit.
Still, this is for Tristana, who probably makes the least use of Arpen out of the AD carries.
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On December 07 2011 16:07 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. Hmm let's see. Hopefully I've done this right. Tristana at level 18, I'll calculate 1 average autoattack. AD Quints for 6.75 AD (iirc). 21 in offense, so +3 AD, +4% crit, +10% crit damage, 10% arpen, 6 arpen from masteries. Assuming enemy has 100 armor: 1 Dblade, Zerkers, IE, PD, PD: Crit reds (+8.37% crit): 407.6 Arpen reds (+15 arp): 408.2 1 Dblade, Zerkers, BT, PD, LW: Crit reds: 253.1 Arpen reds: 250.7 Assuming enemy has 40 armor: 1 Dblade, Zerkers, IE, PD, PD: Crit reds: 519.2 Arpen reds: 528.2 1 Dblade, Zerkers, BT, PD, LW: Crit reds: 322.4 Arpen reds: 324.3 The arp reds do a bit more consistent damage lategame, but the crit runes can be deadly in lane if you get a lucky crit. Still, this is for Tristana, who probably makes the least use of Arpen out of the AD carries.
typically you only care about runes for like lvls 1-12 at the most, and typically with very few items. Runes become fairly inconsequential the longer the game goes on.
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On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude.
DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))]
Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration.
Using Tristana as an example:
At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:
Crit Marks:
66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS
Flat AD Marks:
75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS
Armour Penetration Marks:
66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS
Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:
Crit Marks:
143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS
Flat AD Marks:
151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS
Armour Penetration Marks:
143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS
Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have.
Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well. It looks like Armour penetration is the winner against opponents <100 armour. I could see having a crit page for when an opponents team has a Taric or Soraka, otherwise running armour penetration.
@infinitestory: I don't think many Tristanas would build 2 PD and no IE. Where crit chance will shine the most is a build with IE, PD, and LW. The holy trinity of AD carry items.
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EPT
