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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 07 2011 16:16 GreenManalishi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 15:39 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Do you think attack damage or attack speed don't also suffer from diminishing per gold returns relative to other damage multipliers? Yeah, duh. I am just asking to see your math here dude. DPS = damage * attack speed * [(1+%crit)*(1+%crit damage)] * [1-(enemy armour/(100+enemy armour))] Assuming enemy armour is after armour penetration. Using Tristana as an example: At level 1 with a Doran's Blade against an opponent with 28 armour:Crit Marks: 66* 0.695 * 1.136 * .8 = 41.69 DPS Flat AD Marks: 75*0.695*1.044*0.8 = 43.535 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 66*0.695*1.044*0.893 = 42.76 DPS Now at level 8 with 2 Doran's and a BF Sword against an opponent with 60 armour:Crit Marks: 143* 0.834* 1.136 * .65 = 88.06 DPS Flat AD Marks: 151*0.834*1.044*0.65= 85.46 DPS Armour Penetration Marks: 143*0.834*1.044*0.71= 88.4 DPS Hope that helps. I realize 60 armour is a bit more than a level 8 carry would have (~7 more), but it is a lot less than a bruiser will likely have. Edit: shit, just realized I forgot the 6 armour pen mastery. Oh well.
i may be wrong, but this looks like to me that apen is the winner, with the added benefit that it applies to physical dmg skills
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I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets.
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On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets.
I was under the apprehension that people took flat ad quints as much for better last-hitting as for helping their damage. Like, most carries can get caster minions under tower with 20 damage from quints/masteries/dblade.
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How does Gragas work solotop in your opinion? I mean against what champs is it doable, and who sit on him?
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On December 07 2011 17:10 Gaslo wrote:
How does Gragas work solotop in your opinion? I mean against what champs is it doable, and who sit on him?
No one really sits on him, he too big. He does well against melee without gapclosers I'd say not too sure if you would want to lane him against a sustain lane though.
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On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets.
For ad carry bot flat ad is best because you can last so easily and also put pressure on enemy early on. Crit runes you just hope you crit
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flat ad isn't that good, arp reds are better if you play more agressive and arp is also way better if your abilities have a high base value. On someone like ez with a sheen you want arp, not ad.
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+ Show Spoiler [Mechanics Preview - Ahri, the Nine-Tai…] +
Mechanics Preview - Ahri, the Nine-Tailed Fox
Posted by Morello on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 00:21
Greeting Summoners!
Back in the end of september, we announced The Nine Tails Fox much to the excitment of our community. Well the time has finally come and after much anticipation, we wanted to reveal the gameplay style for Ahri, the Nine-Tailed Fox.
Ahri’s gameplay style revolves around mobility and managing position to aim her spells. When played properly, Ahri darts around teamfights, picking off wounded stragglers and harrying soft enemies.
This is largely accomplished through her ultimate, which allows her to dash multiple times before going on cooldown. Ahri can either use all three quickly to chase, burst, or escape, or she can spread out their uses to keep enemies guessing and juke around the battlefield. Combining this with her high magic damage and her Seduction ability to lock enemies down, she can strike from unexpected angles or bait enemies into overcommitting to disadvantageous situations.
Ahri’s major gameplay decisions are based on her assessment of risk/reward. Her burst is high, but must be in short range to maximize it. This creates a dynamic that requires her to endanger herself to reach full potential. Play it safe and have more light damage, or commit and go for the kill? Use your dash for damage, or save it for escape? The choices are constant with these opposed strengths and weaknesses.
Her kit is really designed to appeal towards opportunistic players who prefer characters with a lot of action, and especially players that like to lull enemies into overconfidence, only to capitalize and punish them. Ahri’s dangerous, seductive nature is something we’re happy to deliver for players who like to toy with their enemies before destroying them.
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On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find.
??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about?
at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns?
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On December 07 2011 17:10 Gaslo wrote:
How does Gragas work solotop in your opinion? I mean against what champs is it doable, and who sit on him?
He works fine vs pretty much everyone in my experience, Fizz can actually screw him over pretty bad though with all the gap closing and dodging/vaulting all the barrels.
Worst that happens is you sit under tower and can still farm fine with barrel/drink bonus damage and slam. He plays alot like morgana top except with way more damage and less tank.
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On December 07 2011 17:35 JackDino wrote:
flat ad isn't that good, arp reds are better if you play more agressive and arp is also way better if your abilities have a high base value. On someone like ez with a sheen you want arp, not ad.
Its fun to just melt faces early lvl with a vayne silverbullets full ADrunes. Lategame you will fall behind a little but you can build such an early lead that sometimes I find it viable , specially if you have Janna, vs a blitz/cait combo for example.
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Sivir ult works on minions, OP push with promote and nunu bloodboil.
On December 07 2011 18:09 ihasaKAROT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 17:35 JackDino wrote:
flat ad isn't that good, arp reds are better if you play more agressive and arp is also way better if your abilities have a high base value. On someone like ez with a sheen you want arp, not ad. Its fun to just melt faces early lvl with a vayne silverbullets full ADrunes. Lategame you will fall behind a little but you can build such an early lead that sometimes I find it viable , specially if you have Janna, vs a blitz/cait combo for example.
full ad does nothing for silverbolts, full ad might be good for tumble but arp is better if you max condemn first(westrice maxes it first for example). Arp is also better if you go black cleaver which a lot of vaynes do.
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Hey guys, is double mage still viable? If not, can you please enlighten me why it is not?
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Nine Tails fox is such a classic Ezreal champion. ( the designer )
A powerfull blink, and a notion of high risk / high reward.
Half of the champions he designed are like that. ( Ezreal, Kassadin, Nocturne, Irelia , etc )
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On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns?
No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it.
Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish.
Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns.
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On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets.
If you're just showing the breakeven points, I think you should recognize that the breakeven points are unrealistic.
A warwick at level 8 gets 13 from runes, 30 from wriggle's, 40 from just leveling his normal armor, and 6 from masteries. 89. Even after this heavy investment, since armor reduction works better at lower armor values, it's obvious that armor penetration is better than critical strike or attack damage.
I personally don't think it matters too much as long as no stat is entirely avoided.
I wouldn't analyze things with too much emphasis on dps either. Critical strike has a property that it can change the expected number of attacks needed to kill certain champions at certain levels. No one cares about the dps when you're chasing and don't get full use of your attack speed, or when you're positioning either.
And lastly, the first attack in any engage is free since it has no cooldown before using it.
edit: I didn't bother to say this since people mentioned this before but arpen and flat ad help with last hitting, and also with AD spells like cait's peacemaker for better harass.
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On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns.
no you wont get 3 more dmg
because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5
(numbers rounded)
when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... " 
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On December 07 2011 19:14 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets. If you're just showing the breakeven points, I think you should recognize that the breakeven points are unrealistic. A warwick at level 8 gets 13 from runes, 30 from wriggle's, 40 from just leveling his normal armor, and 6 from masteries. 89. Even after this heavy investment, since armor reduction works better at lower armor values, it's obvious that armor penetration is better than critical strike or attack damage. I personally don't think it matters too much as long as no stat is entirely avoided. I wouldn't analyze things with too much emphasis on dps either. Critical strike has a property that it can change the expected number of attacks needed to kill certain champions at certain levels. No one cares about the dps when you're chasing and don't get full use of your attack speed, or when you're positioning either. And lastly, the first attack in any engage is free since it has no cooldown before using it. edit: I didn't bother to say this since people mentioned this before but arpen and flat ad help with last hitting, and also with AD spells like cait's peacemaker for better harass.
your argument doesnt make sense. every stat in the game changes the number of attacks required for 1 player to kill another. things like crit and attack speed dont affect some attacks but ad affects all. arp affects all but crit can get you good luck. at the end of the day 1000000 different situations can conclude you needed a different stat to kill that guy a little quicker, your only hope to aggregate the best stat in general is to look at the dps boost.
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On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... "
Not sure if trolling...
Isn't 150*2=300? not 301.5?
On December 07 2011 19:22 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:14 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On December 07 2011 16:25 GreenManalishi wrote:
I just kind of showed the break even point, at level 8. Against the jungler who likely will come into the lane with 100+ armour at level 8, crit runes will serve you better. 60 armour is pretty low relative to the average armour rating you will be facing.
I think it is safe to conclude that crit chance is better for mid -> late game, armour penetration for early game. Flat AD for level 1 and against very low armour targets. If you're just showing the breakeven points, I think you should recognize that the breakeven points are unrealistic. A warwick at level 8 gets 13 from runes, 30 from wriggle's, 40 from just leveling his normal armor, and 6 from masteries. 89. Even after this heavy investment, since armor reduction works better at lower armor values, it's obvious that armor penetration is better than critical strike or attack damage. I personally don't think it matters too much as long as no stat is entirely avoided. I wouldn't analyze things with too much emphasis on dps either. Critical strike has a property that it can change the expected number of attacks needed to kill certain champions at certain levels. No one cares about the dps when you're chasing and don't get full use of your attack speed, or when you're positioning either. And lastly, the first attack in any engage is free since it has no cooldown before using it. edit: I didn't bother to say this since people mentioned this before but arpen and flat ad help with last hitting, and also with AD spells like cait's peacemaker for better harass. your argument doesnt make sense. every stat in the game changes the number of attacks required for 1 player to kill another. things like crit and attack speed dont affect some attacks but ad affects all. arp affects all but crit can get you good luck. at the end of the day 1000000 different situations can conclude you needed a different stat to kill that guy a little quicker, your only hope to aggregate the best stat in general is to look at the dps boost.
I think certain stats are better in certain situations, and certain champions are played in certain situations so these situations happen more often. Stats that are more beneficial to champions that move in between attacks are better for those champions. Therefore I don't think DPS is a good way to measure effectiveness.
edit: I shouldn't be such a dick.
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On December 07 2011 19:17 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 18:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 07 2011 17:59 turdburgler wrote:On December 07 2011 15:23 UniversalSnip wrote:
as long as we draw a distinction between diminishing returns and diminishing per gold returns i think it's fine to use the phrase. @manalishi: Crit doesn't have diminishing returns but it does have diminishing per gold returns and in this case that is what we are discussing. Rune slots do have gold value equivalencies which are pretty easy to find. ??? crit does have diminishing returns what are you on about? at 0% crit 1% crit is 1% more damage. at 99% crit 1% crit is a 0.5% dmg increase. how is that not diminishing returns? No! No, we are not having this discussion again! Aside from the fact I don't want to see another ten pages on this topic, you are just being lazy asking that. I'm barely arithmetically literate and I can see the hole in it. Say you have 300 damage and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. Let's say you have 300 damage and 99% crit and you buy 1% crit. You will get an average of 3 more damage per shot. THAT'S why it's not diminishing returns. It's diminishing returns per gold spent because the relative efficiency compared to buying, say, attack speed at that point is low, but the simple stat scaling does not diminish. Your question is akin to you having ten pennies in front of you. You add one penny and say, well, that added 10% to my penny total, pretty sweet. Later that day you have twenty pennies, you add one penny and say, what the hell, that only added 5% to my total, pennies have diminishing returns. no you wont get 3 more dmg because your 300 damage is actually 150 damage already critting 99% of the time. that 1% more crit will take you to 301.5 (numbers rounded) when you open with "im barely arithmetically literate... "
wtf bro, I think maybe you should be the one to preface your posts with that statement
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EPT
