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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 07 2011 11:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Does a crit really throw off the lane that badly though? Obviously on something like Tryndymere who gets free ad and crit it becomes exponentially broken much faster, but shouldn't you account for that in the first place? Even if you weren't expecting a crit, does that one trade taking 60 extra damage suddenly cause you to go from winning the lane to losing?
There's no way to account for luck. A single early crit can change a fight from a kill to a death or the lane from free farming to being zoned.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Without crits you can kiss AD carries goodbye basically. Between crit and the IE crit damage it's the reason they scale better than anything else. That and the fact that ad is cheaper than ap I suppose, but the exponential gains between crit, crit damage, aspd, ad, and arpen certainly have something to do with it being the highest sustained damage source in the game.
That still doesn't explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible at all. It's not like AD carries buy crit before their IE/BT.
You could probably get rid of crit runes/masteries, and remove Brawler's Gloves from the game (adjusting Ghostblade and Zeal accordingly) and be none the worse for wear. Crit's much more reasonable in mid- and late-game, when autoattackers are hitting people a lot, so the crit chance evens out. When you're in lane, and only occasionally hitting each other, with most of your trades interspersed with a lot of hits on creeps, the randomness is a much bigger deal.
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I have no problem with late game crit. But you should have to BUY it, not get it for free. Realistically, it would probably be best for the game if they did something like remove all passive (ie non bought) crit save runes (since you essentially waste decent slots for crit if you're stupid enough to do it). Late game crit is fine because you actually CAN buy armor. Early game its stupid
As for trynd, as I said earlier, I think his current top lane stupidity is a result of a broken system. He is the single most reliant (beneficiary) champ on a broken system. In the hypothetical crit sweep they would have to change his passive to giving him some other steroid, be it ad or as that scales with his rage. Would he be weaker and need to get buffed back up? Yes. Would he be less gay? Definitly.
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Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game.
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On December 07 2011 11:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game.
You will note that no one wants crit completely removed (and if they do, they are wrong). I do think that the majority of us believe that crit needs to be phased out of the early game and remain in the late game.
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does lots of massive magic damage? has to be close to do it? dash ult? thank you riot for giving another akali to us.
friend: "does seduction mean when she's close to death she takes off all her clothes or something? i think that would slow me for a few seconds"
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If were going to force Crit out of the early game, just give BF sword and all BF items the ability.
That being said, How do you give AD carries and other crit like characters an advantage early in the game if they don't have access to it from level one? Everyone has some kind of advanatage early, be it farming or killing champions. What would you replace crit with?
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On December 07 2011 12:01 CeriseCherries wrote:does lots of massive magic damage? has to be close to do it? dash ult? thank you riot for giving another akali to us. friend: "does seduction mean when she's close to death she takes off all her clothes or something? i think that would slow me for a few seconds"
Good thing I main Ezreal.
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On December 07 2011 11:59 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 11:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game. You will note that no one wants crit completely removed (and if they do, they are wrong). I do think that the majority of us believe that crit needs to be phased out of the early game and remain in the late game.
After thinking about it, it'd probably be easier to just remove it completely and compensate with ad and change ad ratios completely though. Essentially crit comes down to two factors:
Crit Chance
Crit Damage
If you have 260% crit damage (IE+Mastery) and 100% crit chance then each of your attacks basically has 160% bonus attack damage. If you have less than 100% crit chance then your average attack has that percentage of the 160% bonus attack damage. It would be really challenging to actually explain this on an item, but it could all just be done behind the scenes. It'd give ad carries far more consistent damage in the mid game (like when they just buy IE they have a relatively small chance of getting that 260% hit) and completely screw up ad ratios (unless the crit bonus attack damage wasn't added to it, easy fix?). Would having more normalized damage actually be a bad thing?
The more I think about this the more I like it even though I thought it was stupid at first ^_^
Actually this would require Tryn to be remade again since half his abilities are intertwined in crit. Completely forgot about that ^_^ laugh
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Please don't let this get fotm. Please.
"now imagine, if we just removed crit, and made this item
Infinity Edge
140 Attack
Unique Passive Increased Attack Damage by 30%"
Also double the damage gain from every single in game item?
400 damage with 100% crit, 150%increased damage is 1000 damage
400 damage with 30% increased damage is 520.
If you don't want any randomness in the game just remove all abilities. Make everyone either a really big melee or caster minion.
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in other news..
people forgot about Galio again
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On December 07 2011 11:59 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 11:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game. You will note that no one wants crit completely removed (and if they do, they are wrong). I do think that the majority of us believe that crit needs to be phased out of the early game and remain in the late game.
I think crit should be removed. I don't think a competitive game should have luck-based mechanics at all (ie why not make wriggles flat 85 on hit rather than 20% 425 damage). But crit is a great niche and would need to be replaced with something, and until someone thinks of a better mechanic that isnt luck-based I think crit should stay.
I don't know how you'd phase crit out in the early game whil leaving it late though, except by removing the mastery and the base 2%. Even then you'd still see, like, gp taking crit runes or gloves early on the off chance he gets a crit parley early and a free lane win.
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Starcraft BW had a % chance that a projectile would miss if fired up a ramp.........................
Just throwing that out there.
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On December 07 2011 12:21 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 11:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 11:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game. You will note that no one wants crit completely removed (and if they do, they are wrong). I do think that the majority of us believe that crit needs to be phased out of the early game and remain in the late game. I think crit should be removed. I don't think a competitive game should have luck-based mechanics at all (ie why not make wriggles flat 85 on hit rather than 20% 425 damage). But crit is a great niche and would need to be replaced with something, and until someone thinks of a better mechanic that isnt luck-based I think crit should stay. I don't know how you'd phase crit out in the early game whil leaving it late though, except by removing the mastery and the base 2%. Even then you'd still see, like, gp taking crit runes or gloves early on the off chance he gets a crit parley early and a free lane win.
Except percent chance high damage abilities like the wriggles proc also have overkill that you aren't accounting for then. Getting 85 flat on hit is far superior to 20% 425 damage on anything with low hitpoints. It's not an even tradeoff in the slightest.
GP taking crit runes and opening brawler glove would be less effective in most cases though so it really isn't a good strategy. That one game you win might feel good, but consistency really is undervalued. There was once a person on TL who advocated such strategies like taking the crit mastery on AP mids on the off chance that you might just randomly win the lane. The legend of Jazriel really should live on ^_^
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On December 07 2011 12:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 12:21 Treadmill wrote:On December 07 2011 11:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 11:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game. You will note that no one wants crit completely removed (and if they do, they are wrong). I do think that the majority of us believe that crit needs to be phased out of the early game and remain in the late game. I think crit should be removed. I don't think a competitive game should have luck-based mechanics at all (ie why not make wriggles flat 85 on hit rather than 20% 425 damage). But crit is a great niche and would need to be replaced with something, and until someone thinks of a better mechanic that isnt luck-based I think crit should stay. I don't know how you'd phase crit out in the early game whil leaving it late though, except by removing the mastery and the base 2%. Even then you'd still see, like, gp taking crit runes or gloves early on the off chance he gets a crit parley early and a free lane win. Except percent chance high damage abilities like the wriggles proc also have overkill that you aren't accounting for then. Getting 85 flat on hit is far superior to 20% 425 damage on anything with low hitpoints. It's not an even tradeoff in the slightest.
Give wriggles 50 magic damage on hit instead.
Numbers. You can change them!
GP taking crit runes and opening brawler glove would be less effective in most cases though so it really isn't a good strategy.
agree, arpen reds way too powerful, using crit reds is asking to be "lol I bought armor"-ed.
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On December 07 2011 12:21 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 11:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 11:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game. You will note that no one wants crit completely removed (and if they do, they are wrong). I do think that the majority of us believe that crit needs to be phased out of the early game and remain in the late game. I think crit should be removed. I don't think a competitive game should have luck-based mechanics at all (ie why not make wriggles flat 85 on hit rather than 20% 425 damage). But crit is a great niche and would need to be replaced with something, and until someone thinks of a better mechanic that isnt luck-based I think crit should stay. I don't know how you'd phase crit out in the early game whil leaving it late though, except by removing the mastery and the base 2%. Even then you'd still see, like, gp taking crit runes or gloves early on the off chance he gets a crit parley early and a free lane win.
I don't see any problems with GP taking crit runes or gloves honestly. Like, I understand the 4% mastery is poisonous because you're getting a random chance to win the lane while sacrificing nothing, but if you waste your runes on crit chance instead of more useful things like armor pen or AD you deserve the small benefit you get.
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On December 07 2011 12:22 BlackPaladin wrote:
Starcraft BW had a % chance that a projectile would miss if fired up a ramp.........................
Just throwing that out there.
But but, the randomness! You can't have that! Then it's not balanced!
*panic*
Critical strike is fine, people just want to complain about something.
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On December 07 2011 12:30 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 12:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 07 2011 12:21 Treadmill wrote:On December 07 2011 11:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 11:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except I wasn't trying to explain why early-game crit needs to be accessible with that paragraph.
The only problem you run into is that it makes ad carries more consistent damage wise. I feel like this would give them a stronger mid game, especially heroes like Caitlyn who want raw ad (which removing crit would be the logical addition to compensate). Obviously ad scaling could be completely redone, but it's a huge ripple effect that can be completely avoided in the first place. IE also becomes problematic in how you change the bonus while keeping it balanced at all points in the game. You will note that no one wants crit completely removed (and if they do, they are wrong). I do think that the majority of us believe that crit needs to be phased out of the early game and remain in the late game. I think crit should be removed. I don't think a competitive game should have luck-based mechanics at all (ie why not make wriggles flat 85 on hit rather than 20% 425 damage). But crit is a great niche and would need to be replaced with something, and until someone thinks of a better mechanic that isnt luck-based I think crit should stay. I don't know how you'd phase crit out in the early game whil leaving it late though, except by removing the mastery and the base 2%. Even then you'd still see, like, gp taking crit runes or gloves early on the off chance he gets a crit parley early and a free lane win. Except percent chance high damage abilities like the wriggles proc also have overkill that you aren't accounting for then. Getting 85 flat on hit is far superior to 20% 425 damage on anything with low hitpoints. It's not an even tradeoff in the slightest. Give wriggles 50 magic damage on hit instead. Numbers. You can change them! Show nested quote +GP taking crit runes and opening brawler glove would be less effective in most cases though so it really isn't a good strategy. agree, arpen reds way too powerful, using crit reds is asking to be "lol I bought armor"-ed.
and then we're back to the question about normalized damage breaking the game or not. One thing I actually miss from dota is that heroes didn't do static damage. That's probably the only thing I actually miss though ^_^
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On December 07 2011 12:22 BlackPaladin wrote:
Starcraft BW had a % chance that a projectile would miss if fired up a ramp.........................
Just throwing that out there.
Thank you.
Because people didn't think rts games should be "based off luck" starcraft 2 was plagued with countless 4gate tournament victories and marine all-ins. Don't let this get fotm too.
I still regret even thinking that there was some truth to not having luck in pro games. *looks down and nods head sideways disappointingly."
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EPT
