Warmogs getting nerfed. I'm sure they'll do the dumb choice of maintaining its cost but lowering its effect, rather than both making it cheaper, but also less good. Right now getting Warmogs takes 5 years (more so for a jungle than an afk farming top), but also renders you a god once obtained. Would just make so much more sense to make it more buildable (less of a giant gap between becoming super tanky and doing damage), but also having it nerfed to the point where you aren't basically a pure tank because you have it (sup tons of free resistances for being melee).
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon either taking it for free, forcing a 4v3, or relieving pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team moves to defend drag.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
Hmmm. How would you all think a Riven is supposed to lane vs. a Volibear?
Just played a game where I think I may have been too worried about his w, but since his passive gives him free +30% health if you take him that low it felt like trading with him wasn't terribly worthwhile.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
Teams knowingly send champions to 1v2 lanes. To me that means that teams are pretty confident that at least certain champions can win certain 1v2 match ups. I think the most common 1v2ers in tourney games are probably Cho'Gath and Yorick. Both champions don't get too behind in CS and don't feed in lane. I'm sure there are plenty more examples but the fact of the matter is teams wouldn't set up 1v2 match ups unless they were confident that their 1 could win or at least go even with the enemy 2.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
I agree that they might not be perfect examples. But they are the only ones that we have. And to this point they dont prove that a 1v2 lane MUST go in any direction. The way that I have read a lot of the discussion up to this point is that people have taken for granted that a 1v2 WILL automatically favor the 2. I dont think that this is a valid assumption, thats all.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
Assuming NO champion in the game can 2v1 properly is a worse assumption, though. ''Winning'' a 1v2 as, say, Cho, Udyr or Yorick just means farming decently while watching your AD+Support totally rape the enemy top because he's not capable of 2v1ing, hence your decision to swap lanes.
I just think there's champions that get the better end of the stick if you 2v1, thus making it a valid strategic move. Recent tournaments have shown that those lanes can go either way and not taking mistakes into account is really dumb in my opinion. Even at professional level, lots of mistakes happen. They're bound to happen in a game as dynamic as LoL.
Also: Corvette and me broing it up real hard on Reddit. Awww yeah.
I was looking for a vod to the finals of the "Tournamentception" tournament that CLG ran recently, but I couldn't find it. Anyone know if / where it exists?
On December 07 2011 09:54 sylverfyre wrote: I was looking for a vod to the finals of the "Tournamentception" tournament that CLG ran recently, but I couldn't find it. Anyone know if / where it exists?
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
Teams knowingly send champions to 1v2 lanes. To me that means that teams are pretty confident that at least certain champions can win certain 1v2 match ups. I think the most common 1v2ers in tourney games are probably Cho'Gath and Yorick. Both champions don't get too behind in CS and don't feed in lane. I'm sure there are plenty more examples but the fact of the matter is teams wouldn't set up 1v2 match ups unless they were confident that their 1 could win or at least go even with the enemy 2.
I think that's the other important part. Your 1v2 lane doesn't actually need to win, just do better than the enemies so in the end you come out ahead. Your vayne going top with support and picking up a few kills could mean that even though your bottom lost significantly, you still came out ahead in the exchange in the sense that your Yorick bottom can still press R and your vayne can carry the game even harder than usual.
Really we have a situation that's so underused that anything would just be guessing sadly. Utilizing something so volatile in a tournament just seems too risky to be viable unless you don't think you can win head to head. I don't generally take risks though unless I don't think it's possible to win the game without them or a miracle occurring so I'm probably the worst case scenario for such things.
On December 07 2011 09:50 Ryalnos wrote: Hmmm. How would you all think a Riven is supposed to lane vs. a Volibear?
Just played a game where I think I may have been too worried about his w, but since his passive gives him free +30% health if you take him that low it felt like trading with him wasn't terribly worthwhile.
I actually did pretty well vs volibear and was ahead in cs, but I died to him 1 v 1 due to forgetting his passive x_x
The viability of 2v1 lanes hangs heavily on whether the sum of the farm/levels on the duo is equal to or greater than that of the enemy's solo and jungler. The issue at present is that the answer is "no" unless the duo is capable of repeatedly killing the solo.
If the duo does a full deny, meaning they do not last hit and permanently freeze the lane out of reach of the solo, the enemy jungler is capable of AFK farming enough gold to make the situation unfavorable (in addition to dragon/buff control). That means the duo must be more direct, which essentially means early tower dives.
It seems like the 2-1-2 strategy's only chance is to have three extremely aggressive lanes. That way lane swapping is ineffective and the enemy jungler is continuously forced out of the jungle to keep things in parity.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
Teams knowingly send champions to 1v2 lanes. To me that means that teams are pretty confident that at least certain champions can win certain 1v2 match ups. I think the most common 1v2ers in tourney games are probably Cho'Gath and Yorick. Both champions don't get too behind in CS and don't feed in lane. I'm sure there are plenty more examples but the fact of the matter is teams wouldn't set up 1v2 match ups unless they were confident that their 1 could win or at least go even with the enemy 2.
I think that's the other important part. Your 1v2 lane doesn't actually need to win, just do better than the enemies so in the end you come out ahead. Your vayne going top with support and picking up a few kills could mean that even though your bottom lost significantly, you still came out ahead in the exchange in the sense that your Yorick bottom can still press R and your vayne can carry the game even harder than usual.
Really we have a situation that's so underused that anything would just be guessing sadly. Utilizing something so volatile in a tournament just seems too risky to be viable unless you don't think you can win head to head. I don't generally take risks though unless I don't think it's possible to win the game without them or a miracle occurring so I'm probably the worst case scenario for such things.
Slight disclaimer- I dont know if the way that I think about this and enumerate my theory in this post actually makes any sense to anyone who isnt me. So fair warning.
I think the biggest problem from a theory standpoint is that you are looking at a situation unlike a swap. In a swap, as you noted, you just need to do better than their 1v2. Both teams influence this, ie- the solo can crush unexpectedly, or the duo can crush the solo. But in each case, you are looking at the same scenario- (in farm %) 100-0 vs 100 (for each team). It just becomes a question of who can cut those numbers down more.
But what about a 1v2 when the other person is in the jungle? Well, they automatically get 100% farm, realistically even 125% farm by stealing enemy camps for free. But lets call it 100% farm. This leaves a 100-100 vs 100 (with another 100 already banked). Now in order to make that even, both solos need 100% farm, or for 1 to get 100% farm and the other to somehow magically get some sort of farm equal to the enemy top lane. I just dont buy that ever happening.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
Teams knowingly send champions to 1v2 lanes. To me that means that teams are pretty confident that at least certain champions can win certain 1v2 match ups. I think the most common 1v2ers in tourney games are probably Cho'Gath and Yorick. Both champions don't get too behind in CS and don't feed in lane. I'm sure there are plenty more examples but the fact of the matter is teams wouldn't set up 1v2 match ups unless they were confident that their 1 could win or at least go even with the enemy 2.
I think that's the other important part. Your 1v2 lane doesn't actually need to win, just do better than the enemies so in the end you come out ahead. Your vayne going top with support and picking up a few kills could mean that even though your bottom lost significantly, you still came out ahead in the exchange in the sense that your Yorick bottom can still press R and your vayne can carry the game even harder than usual.
Really we have a situation that's so underused that anything would just be guessing sadly. Utilizing something so volatile in a tournament just seems too risky to be viable unless you don't think you can win head to head. I don't generally take risks though unless I don't think it's possible to win the game without them or a miracle occurring so I'm probably the worst case scenario for such things.
Except that in most cases in high level games the 1v2 champion doesn't lose significantly. They usually do fine in CS, albeit probably not as good if it was a typical 1v1 lane.
The whole discussion started because people said you could get away without a jungler because you would be able to just win top lane really hard. That's almost certainly not the case and your team won't have a jungler. It's like if Two_Down says something on these forums it becomes a contest of "let's see how many people can prove him wrong."
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
I agree that they might not be perfect examples. But they are the only ones that we have. And to this point they dont prove that a 1v2 lane MUST go in any direction. The way that I have read a lot of the discussion up to this point is that people have taken for granted that a 1v2 WILL automatically favor the 2. I dont think that this is a valid assumption, thats all.
it will favor the 2, unless it is just beyond a terrible matchup, i think the real question is how much it favors the 2. I have to say i kinda agree that 1v2 doesnt necessarily mean that the 1 is basically out of the game, which has certainly been implied during a lot of this discussion.
On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote: So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks.
The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag.
See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2.
The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally.
Teams knowingly send champions to 1v2 lanes. To me that means that teams are pretty confident that at least certain champions can win certain 1v2 match ups. I think the most common 1v2ers in tourney games are probably Cho'Gath and Yorick. Both champions don't get too behind in CS and don't feed in lane. I'm sure there are plenty more examples but the fact of the matter is teams wouldn't set up 1v2 match ups unless they were confident that their 1 could win or at least go even with the enemy 2.
I think that's the other important part. Your 1v2 lane doesn't actually need to win, just do better than the enemies so in the end you come out ahead. Your vayne going top with support and picking up a few kills could mean that even though your bottom lost significantly, you still came out ahead in the exchange in the sense that your Yorick bottom can still press R and your vayne can carry the game even harder than usual.
Really we have a situation that's so underused that anything would just be guessing sadly. Utilizing something so volatile in a tournament just seems too risky to be viable unless you don't think you can win head to head. I don't generally take risks though unless I don't think it's possible to win the game without them or a miracle occurring so I'm probably the worst case scenario for such things.
Slight disclaimer- I dont know if the way that I think about this and enumerate my theory in this post actually makes any sense to anyone who isnt me. So fair warning.
I think the biggest problem from a theory standpoint is that you are looking at a situation unlike a swap. In a swap, as you noted, you just need to do better than their 1v2. Both teams influence this, ie- the solo can crush unexpectedly, or the duo can crush the solo. But in each case, you are looking at the same scenario- (in farm %) 100-0 vs 100 (for each team). It just becomes a question of who can cut those numbers down more.
But what about a 1v2 when the other person is in the jungle? Well, they automatically get 100% farm, realistically even 125% farm by stealing enemy camps for free. But lets call it 100% farm. This leaves a 100-100 vs 100 (with another 100 already banked). Now in order to make that even, both solos need 100% farm, or for 1 to get 100% farm and the other to somehow magically get some sort of farm equal to the enemy top lane. I just dont buy that ever happening.
Well if you can get kills in that 1v2 lane and all the cs you could technically achieve greater than 100% from the lane if that makes sense. In higher level play you likely wouldn't be seeing these kills, but since the lanes are so rare it wouldn't surprise me if it happened. Again it's just all theorycraft because this just doesn't happen enough
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