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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 07 2011 09:51 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 09:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 07 2011 09:35 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 09:29 phyvo wrote:On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote:
So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure. I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks. The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag. See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2. The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally. I agree that they might not be perfect examples. But they are the only ones that we have. And to this point they dont prove that a 1v2 lane MUST go in any direction. The way that I have read a lot of the discussion up to this point is that people have taken for granted that a 1v2 WILL automatically favor the 2. I dont think that this is a valid assumption, thats all.
The examples we have of tournament 2v1 lanes are just typical support + AD picks which I'd argue are actually nowhere close to ideal for denying because of auto attacking pushes the lane and supports really don't do enough harassment damage.
In a 2-1-2 setup there'd be no reason to stick solely to support + AD for toplane. Instead you could pick champs like leblanc who can WTFCOMBOINSTAGIB someone who steps an inch out of line and/or have great tower diving power so even sitting at turret is far from safe and you can pick 1 physical burst caster and 1 magic burst caster to prevent the solo from ever building enough defense to sustain themselves.
Not that picking said lane composition doesn't possibly screw you over later, but I pretty much believe that if you lose a 2v1 straight up from minute 1 it's because you had bad picks or just don't know what you're doing.
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On December 07 2011 10:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 10:11 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 10:01 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 07 2011 09:51 overt wrote:On December 07 2011 09:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 07 2011 09:35 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 09:29 phyvo wrote:On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote:
So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure. I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks. The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag. See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2. The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally. Teams knowingly send champions to 1v2 lanes. To me that means that teams are pretty confident that at least certain champions can win certain 1v2 match ups. I think the most common 1v2ers in tourney games are probably Cho'Gath and Yorick. Both champions don't get too behind in CS and don't feed in lane. I'm sure there are plenty more examples but the fact of the matter is teams wouldn't set up 1v2 match ups unless they were confident that their 1 could win or at least go even with the enemy 2. I think that's the other important part. Your 1v2 lane doesn't actually need to win, just do better than the enemies so in the end you come out ahead. Your vayne going top with support and picking up a few kills could mean that even though your bottom lost significantly, you still came out ahead in the exchange in the sense that your Yorick bottom can still press R and your vayne can carry the game even harder than usual. Really we have a situation that's so underused that anything would just be guessing sadly. Utilizing something so volatile in a tournament just seems too risky to be viable unless you don't think you can win head to head. I don't generally take risks though unless I don't think it's possible to win the game without them or a miracle occurring so I'm probably the worst case scenario for such things. Slight disclaimer- I dont know if the way that I think about this and enumerate my theory in this post actually makes any sense to anyone who isnt me. So fair warning. I think the biggest problem from a theory standpoint is that you are looking at a situation unlike a swap. In a swap, as you noted, you just need to do better than their 1v2. Both teams influence this, ie- the solo can crush unexpectedly, or the duo can crush the solo. But in each case, you are looking at the same scenario- (in farm %) 100-0 vs 100 (for each team). It just becomes a question of who can cut those numbers down more. But what about a 1v2 when the other person is in the jungle? Well, they automatically get 100% farm, realistically even 125% farm by stealing enemy camps for free. But lets call it 100% farm. This leaves a 100-100 vs 100 (with another 100 already banked). Now in order to make that even, both solos need 100% farm, or for 1 to get 100% farm and the other to somehow magically get some sort of farm equal to the enemy top lane. I just dont buy that ever happening. Well if you can get kills in that 1v2 lane and all the cs you could technically achieve greater than 100% from the lane if that makes sense. In higher level play you likely wouldn't be seeing these kills, but since the lanes are so rare it wouldn't surprise me if it happened. Again it's just all theorycraft because this just doesn't happen enough 
this isn't really theorycrafting tho, this is more like a hypothetical situation. I think the biggest point is that you can't really say it's a given how a 1v2 will result just because it's inevitably based almost exclusively on skill with a dash of matchup dependencies on the side. On the other hand, it IS a given that a jungler will be able to farm the jungle, especially if the enemy doesn't have one. You can't just assume that the 2 players top are just going to completely crush the top player every single time (tho u can be reasonably certain they will 'win' in terms of who controls the lane relatively speaking), whereas you can reasonably rely on the fact that a jungler will farm x amount of gold in y minutes. It's a minute detail, but one that's kinda critical in this discussion. I will be the first to admit i'm wrong tho if you can convincingly tell me that 1v2 lane will completely crush the solo 99% of the time.
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On December 07 2011 10:21 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 09:51 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 09:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 07 2011 09:35 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 07 2011 09:29 phyvo wrote:On December 07 2011 07:55 Two_DoWn wrote:
So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure. I was pretty sure that the consensus awhile ago was that there simply isn't a champ in the game that can 1v2 and win without the 2 screwing up. There is no way a single champion can lane against 2 champions if he's by himself without jungler support or the 2 screwing up badly either mechanically or by being bad picks. The real challenge for a 2v1 team is in the other things you said: gold deficit and map control. If you last hit to farm you push the lane and can't zone effectively anymore and allow their solo to farm and their jungler to farm. But if you don't farm the enemy jungler can actually get almost 200 gold/min (about 75% of lane CS) from his own jungle alone and can still pressure dragon and take it either for free, force a 4v3, or relieve pressure from top lane as the 2-1-2 team has to move to defend drag. See, You say that, but we have seen recently that 1v2 swap lanes can still be effective at top level- provided you have the right solo. So I definitely do not think that a 1v2 lane is an autolane for the 2. The real issue is that these 1v2 situations are so rare that the results can't be considered for anything. Are you going to assume that just because it's a tournament game that the lane was played properly even though neither side has much experience in such a situation? I think that's a poor assumption to make personally. I agree that they might not be perfect examples. But they are the only ones that we have. And to this point they dont prove that a 1v2 lane MUST go in any direction. The way that I have read a lot of the discussion up to this point is that people have taken for granted that a 1v2 WILL automatically favor the 2. I dont think that this is a valid assumption, thats all. The examples we have of tournament 2v1 lanes are just typical support + AD picks which I'd argue are actually nowhere close to ideal for denying because of auto attacking pushes the lane and supports really don't do enough harassment damage. In a 2-1-2 setup there'd be no reason to stick solely to support + AD for toplane. Instead you could pick champs like leblanc who can WTFCOMBOINSTAGIB someone who steps an inch out of line and/or have great tower diving power so even sitting at turret is far from safe and you can pick 1 physical burst caster and 1 magic burst caster to prevent the solo from ever building enough defense to sustain themselves. Not that picking said lane composition doesn't possibly screw you over later, but I pretty much believe that if you lose a 2v1 straight up from minute 1 it's because you had bad picks or just don't know what you're doing.
But in a scenario where you run a top lane set up to shut down a solo top the team would have to ask if winning top lane is worth losing both mid and bottom. What's going to stop the enemy jungler from constantly ganking mid and bottom while taking your team's buffs for himself?
If you go to stop the enemy jungler from stealing your jungle your lanes will start losing out on XP and farm and likely find themselves in bad fights surrounded by the laner they just left and the enemy jungle. If your top decides to send someone to other lanes to gank or help out then your guaranteed "won lane" is now a 1v1 and could quickly turn for the worst.
I just can't see a 2-1-2 set up working in the current state of LoL.
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Any attempt at a 2-1-2 is hard countered by globals or partially global ults, imo. Roamer mids, especially ones who can push hard, will also dominate this setup.
The only way to counter something that can easily push a lane and gank is to have jungling pressure so that they can't just afk push your face in all day. TF specifically can easily aoe a wave down, pop a few steps over and be there top to 2v2 or 3v2 gank. "But you can just aoe the lane back" -- maybe. But that still leaves big lulls in your vision on the enemy laner unless you're sitting right up against his tower, in which case you're super vulnerable to being ganked.
It's pretty much a forgone conclusion that your lane will be heavily pushed when you've 2v1. I think something like rammus tf could shit on just about every 2v1 top. Can easily zoom in faster than you can react while TF, panth, etc. seals the deal.
Naturally this is all about helping top who has the hardest lane, but it's not like your mid or bot will have it any easier since you'll be perpetually outmanned in skirmishes and dragon fights. You also need a laner who takes smite or you just about auto-lose because of zero control on objectives.
Frankly I think the only way 2-1-2 can ever work is when you catch the other team completely off-guard with a setup / team that isn't capable of adjusting.
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On December 07 2011 10:42 Craton wrote:
Any attempt at a 2-1-2 is hard countered by globals or partially global ults, imo.
teleport also causes some problems for 2v1 lanes too
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I don't think so (other than involving a blink/dash). The description suggests that you activate the ult then get three 'dashes' to use in a limited time period. There is no mention of needing a target like Akali, and I would guess that it in fact doesn't since the preview suggests you can use it to 'escape' (admittedly Akali -can- use her ult to escape but it's not a primary use of the skill).
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Because we really need more champs with way too much free mobility.
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So I have come to the conclusion that early game crit is the single dumbest mechanic in the game. You should not be able to get a free win in lane because you got lucky on your 5% crit chance and sniped half of your opponents health.
Simmilarly, I now believe that trynd isnt actually a broken champion- he is just the beneficiary of a broken system (crit) just like jax was the beneficiary of a broken system (dodging tower shots)
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On December 07 2011 11:16 Two_DoWn wrote:
So I have come to the conclusion that early game crit is the single dumbest mechanic in the game. You should not be able to get a free win in lane because you got lucky on your 5% crit chance and sniped half of your opponents health.
Simmilarly, I now believe that trynd isnt actually a broken champion- he is just the beneficiary of a broken system (crit) just like jax was the beneficiary of a broken system (dodging tower shots)
The best part is that when Riot revamped the mastery tree, they increased the crit chance. I've won so many random lanes because "OH LOOK A CRIT"
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"But you can build armor to counter crits!"
-Riot
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In all honesty, they should remove the crit masteries, or make it so that you need to buy a crit item in order to "unlock" the ability to crit. Im fine if some moron wants to blow his reds and quints on ad since there are better options. But as is the system is so stupid.
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Doesn't solve the early brokenness of champs like Trynd who get free crit, though.
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I'm really surprised the J word hasn't been mentioned yet in this discussion.
Does a crit really throw off the lane that badly though? Obviously on something like Tryndymere who gets free ad and crit it becomes exponentially broken much faster, but shouldn't you account for that in the first place? Even if you weren't expecting a crit, does that one trade taking 60 extra damage suddenly cause you to go from winning the lane to losing?
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Definitely had a late where GP crit 2 times in a row at level 1. What was a friendly exchange in damage turned into a firstblood and a 2 level advantage (and an insta-lane win). There is nothing you can do to counter the lucky crit. I absolutely agree you should have items to be able to "unlock" the ability to crit.
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What exactly do critical hits contribute to a game anyway? I'm not sure that riot should remove it from the game at this point (considering how crazy people went over dodge removal) but i still don't see a point to it. crits cause a lot of rage from the receiver but don't really add much fun to the person getting the crits.
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On December 07 2011 11:37 danana wrote:
What exactly do critical hits contribute to a game anyway? I'm not sure that riot should remove it from the game at this point (considering how crazy people went over dodge removal) but i still don't see a point to it. crits cause a lot of rage from the receiver but don't really add much fun to the person getting the crits.
Without crits you can kiss AD carries goodbye basically. Between crit and the IE crit damage it's the reason they scale better than anything else. That and the fact that ad is cheaper than ap I suppose, but the exponential gains between crit, crit damage, aspd, ad, and arpen certainly have something to do with it being the highest sustained damage source in the game.
@Hoban
If he was running a full crit page that isn't even unreasonable though assuming he hit something else between Q cooldowns. Riot already uses some sort of Pseudo Random Distribution to minimize these effects so complaining about it is somewhat pointless. They've already put in the system to reduce the chances.
EDIT: Worded better.
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you guys talk as if riot has any idea of what they are doing.
critical strike is only there because Riot doesn't want their cool crit animations to go to waste. They removed dodge because it has no animation. basically it's appealing to super super super casuals who actually care about that kind of stuff lol.
it's technically fair though, because both sides have crit.
Edit: to respond to blitzkrieg
Rabadon's Deathcap
140 ability power
Unique Passive: Increased ability power by 30%
now imagine, if we just removed crit, and made this item
Infinity Edge
140 Attack
Unique Passive Increased Attack Damage by 30%
There is still attack speed to separate auto attackers from AD casters so why not add this item
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I like the play style of characters with crit exsisting. While it's random at some points you also have account for the fact that it is GOING to happen. They are going to build the character to CRIT. It's like his job or something. No one likes getting randomed out of something, because its RANDOM. It CAN happen.
There's a saying the TCG/Card Game Community. "Run Hot", because if you do you will win. These character's are based around that fundamental idea. Sometimes you get dicked, sometimes you don't and people like that idea. Now should crit chance have a cap? I don't think have a 100% chance to crit is fun for the 5 people on the receivening end of it, but it damn does it feel good to see it happen every swing.
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On December 07 2011 11:37 danana wrote:
What exactly do critical hits contribute to a game anyway? I'm not sure that riot should remove it from the game at this point (considering how crazy people went over dodge removal) but i still don't see a point to it. crits cause a lot of rage from the receiver but don't really add much fun to the person getting the crits.
Take less damage from them by getting armor. Dodge was an end all and be all with no good way of getting around it. It's similar to how they made on hit attacks not dodgable because of the problems it caused. Crits can work while dodges can't.
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1v1'd a friend in mid. He picked trist to troll me. Got 2 auto attack crits on lvl 1 exchange. I died. RNG 2 stronk. I thought riot removed how silly crit was back pre-season 1. T_T
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EPT
