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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 07 2011 07:35 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:26 mordek wrote:On December 07 2011 07:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 07 2011 07:01 JackDino wrote:
The problem with running 2-1-2 no jungler is that if your opponent does have a jungler and you fail to deny top lane you're most likely gonna be behind. Even if you deny top, your mid is going to lose cause their middle will have a blue. Your bottom gets ganked and falls behind? screwed for the rest of the game. In the scenario given, blue could be given to mid first and then you have timer on it so you know when to come back. And isn't there a tradeoff of top lane getting ahead while bot lane gets behind? It really comes down to what extent bot gets behind and how far ahead the two up top get of course. I'm not trying to argue but rather re-think things. If it's a dumb idea I want to know why so I can be a better player as I'm comparitively very new to most in this forum. Almost no mids can take blue solo when it comes back up at 7 minutes without taking significant damage, using a ton(all of their) mana, and a lot of time. They'll certainly lose out on a wave even if they pushed the lane. You'd have to have someone top come down to help, which kills the advantage you have there(and may even lead to a death because you are now 1v1 top against someone who probably has a level or 2 on you).
I imagined someone coming down from top then. It doesn't take that long for 2 people to take blue but that's a valid point. If you zoned top well though it minimizes that impact.
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if you play 2-1-2 against a comp with a jungler, I'm pretty sure that 1 of the tops can help your mid with blue lol.
You just gotta ward your own jungle constantly.
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I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever.
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If you're purple team you're even more screwed though because whomever is left bottom is screwed in terms of farming unless the other team doesn't notice (your ad carry will always lose to ad carry+support basically). Assuming of course that your bottom isn't already behind in the first place since they'll never get jungle ganks. Blue team has less of an issue as already stated because of the two top thing, but still you're probably losing farm there. Of course, even if you get your mid blue it just turns into a farm fest instead of you losing the lane so it isn't even that good.
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On December 07 2011 07:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever.
Actually the respective 2nd laners would have more cs than supports do now since they´d take the junglecreeps. But well since you consider the current supports "thrown away"... well thats the kind of person you are.
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Is there anything wrong with doing both buffs at the start and jungler counter-jungling? I ask since jungle respawns so fast you can return to your own and all mini-camps are back up.
Edit: I shouldn't have prefaced my original questions with 2-1-2 low level that way we wouldn't be so de-railed. No worries it's a good discussion anyways 
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On December 07 2011 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Well RoA is a waste of gold if you don't have mana. When you only have one damaging ability it just isn't effective to make AP for damage. With his passive it's far more effective to build atmogs since that will give you extra passive damage and tankiness.
How about rylai's? It's got basically the same HP as RoA, same AP as a maxed ROA, the slow is not terrible on his Q.
I won't disagree that he definitely wants that atma's + HP items, but I think that Rylai's would be ok.
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On December 07 2011 07:48 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever. Actually the respective 2nd laners would have more cs than supports do now since they´d take the junglecreeps. But well since you consider the current supports "thrown away"... well thats the kind of person you are.
Well I suppose I should clarify. I meant thrown away in terms of the fact that you pick a character who you know will have no shot at carrying that game. You pick a support for utility, so that even though you know they arent going to get any gold, they will still be useful.
So basically a 2-1-2 has that same mentality, at least for bot lane- 1 person is not going to carry simply because they get no farm. But then you put someone else top, in an attempt to zone out their top lane. In order to make this actually work, their top lane not only has to farm less than your top lane, but that zoner has to farm more than the enemy jungle will. So 2 things have to go right in order for the strategy to actually even out. And given that the person top cannot possibly be more efficient than the jungler (they are not getting constant gold, and if you do send them to jungle they will not have anywhere near the same exp growth, you keep them there constantly you gimp YOUR top lane by making it so that he doesnt get leveled equal to the opponent top lane) I just dont think that it can be a viable strategy.
Combine that with the fact that there are quite a few champs who are perfectly happy to take on a 1v2 lane and win, a 2-1-2 strategy just doesnt seem anywhere near worth it to me.
And thats not even counting the loss of map control, dragon control, and lane pressure.
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What is the Teamliquid chat channel on EU West if there still is one or just that noone is there now, just changed regions so?
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On December 07 2011 06:55 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 06:25 Requizen wrote:On December 07 2011 06:15 Mogwai wrote:
I expect megaman weapon nods with all of his abilities. Alright, this is a crazy idea, but what if his abilities changed with buffs? Like, you get blue, and he has the Ice Slasher look, red has Fire Storm, and dual buff has like, Rolling Cutter? I'd lol so hard and instabuy so fast my fingers would break. AMG WHAT IF WHEN HE DIES HE EXPLODES INTO ROUND PARTICLES
My wallet would explode into an empty void.
I am trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion after reading an article that explicitly states "these data points ... unequivocally demonstrate that quickly clearing the camp yields much more gold and experience when compared with banking".
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On December 07 2011 07:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever.
A team with more supports will always win teamfights up to late game, if you don't believe me try a 5 support comp and watch how despite being 20 kills down you still win fights. I didn't think this was true until I won a game running 4 support where my team somehow won despite being down 20 kills. They're not throwaway champs
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On December 07 2011 07:55 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Well RoA is a waste of gold if you don't have mana. When you only have one damaging ability it just isn't effective to make AP for damage. With his passive it's far more effective to build atmogs since that will give you extra passive damage and tankiness. How about rylai's? It's got basically the same HP as RoA, same AP as a maxed ROA, the slow is not terrible on his Q. I won't disagree that he definitely wants that atma's + HP items, but I think that Rylai's would be ok.
Rylai's isn't even close to as stat efficient as RoA (granted few items are) although you do get the slow proc. Sadly with only one ability to proc the slow it's barely worth mentioning in the first place which means you're just buying Rylais for the raw stats. Ryalis might be the only item with AP and HP (Haunting Guise isn't an item), but that doesn't mean it's worth picking up. You could just buy a giants belt and NLR and have the same results basically and build them into other items like warmogs and you probably shouldn't buy AP ^_^
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On December 07 2011 08:01 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever. A team with more supports will always win teamfights up to late game, if you don't believe me try a 5 support comp and watch how despite being 20 kills down you still win fights. I didn't think this was true until I won a game running 4 support where my team somehow won despite being down 20 kills. They're not throwaway champs
Cool. And did all of you have 0 cs, a shurelias, boots 1, and a HOG? Or did you have actual items? Becasue a carry vs a support distinction currently has jack squat to do with the character- only the amount of income they have. Hence yorick and GP being perfectly acceptable supports AND carries. Or janna being able to carry as a solo mid.
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Really dont like how Rivens ult basically goes infront of you, messed me up quite a few times so far --;
really should be a cone cast like force pulse or something imo
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On December 07 2011 08:05 arb wrote:
Really dont like how Rivens ult basically goes infront of you, messed me up quite a few times so far --;
really should be a cone cast like force pulse or something imo
Ehh...
What?
I don't even... I mean... WHAT?
It is a cone cast and it's pretty easy to hit. Not exactly Cass R or Kass E, but not exactly Graves Q either.
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On December 07 2011 08:01 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever. A team with more supports will always win teamfights up to late game, if you don't believe me try a 5 support comp and watch how despite being 20 kills down you still win fights. I didn't think this was true until I won a game running 4 support where my team somehow won despite being down 20 kills. They're not throwaway champs
A team with 5 carries wins every fight because if you have 5carries the chance to get a farmed carry is a lot higher than having 1 carry, and if an assassin jumps 1 carry you have 4 others to dish out the damage.
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On December 07 2011 08:01 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever. A team with more supports will always win teamfights up to late game, if you don't believe me try a 5 support comp and watch how despite being 20 kills down you still win fights. I didn't think this was true until I won a game running 4 support where my team somehow won despite being down 20 kills. They're not throwaway champs
Yeah, I heard CLG Canada is going to run Janna, Alistar, Taric, Soraka, and Sona at WCG.
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On December 07 2011 08:22 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 08:01 tobi9999 wrote:On December 07 2011 07:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont get it though. A 2-1-2 says "fuck it, Im going to throw 2 characters away instead of the usual 1, so all we need to do as a team is make sure that we fuck them over worse than we fucked ourselves over at the start."
Im sorry, but deliberately starting off at a disadvantage has no appeal to me whatsoever. A team with more supports will always win teamfights up to late game, if you don't believe me try a 5 support comp and watch how despite being 20 kills down you still win fights. I didn't think this was true until I won a game running 4 support where my team somehow won despite being down 20 kills. They're not throwaway champs Yeah, I heard CLG Canada is going to run Janna, Alistar, Taric, Soraka, and Sona at WCG.
Reminds me of those Pros Vs Rioters games.
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On December 07 2011 08:18 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 08:05 arb wrote:
Really dont like how Rivens ult basically goes infront of you, messed me up quite a few times so far --;
really should be a cone cast like force pulse or something imo Ehh... What? I don't even... I mean... WHAT? It is a cone cast and it's pretty easy to hit. Not exactly Cass R or Kass E, but not exactly Graves Q either.
Maybe smart cast is just fucking with me
fml im so bad
smart cast was fucking with me, fuck my life
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On December 07 2011 08:52 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 08:18 Shiv. wrote:On December 07 2011 08:05 arb wrote:
Really dont like how Rivens ult basically goes infront of you, messed me up quite a few times so far --;
really should be a cone cast like force pulse or something imo Ehh... What? I don't even... I mean... WHAT? It is a cone cast and it's pretty easy to hit. Not exactly Cass R or Kass E, but not exactly Graves Q either. Maybe smart cast is just fucking with me fml im so bad smart cast was fucking with me, fuck my life
You'll get used to it. I smartcast it myself and once you get the hang on it it's reaaaaally easy.
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EPT
