[Patch 1.0.0.129: Fizz] General Discussion - Page 61

On November 20 2011 07:59 Craton wrote:
Losses and wins aren't always the same amount. It's completely possible (and has happened already) to have a negative win-loss and still be 1900+.

On November 20 2011 08:01 TieN.nS) wrote:


Well, I was in that game where you were top against Shen and it seemed like you'd never even played against an AP Shen top before. Your posts make it seem like you know all of the ins and outs of these matchups, when you've played Fizz for two days. Are you losing lanes because Fizz CAN'T win those lanes, or because a) you don't know the matchups, b) aren't familiar with Fizz, c) aren't a strong laner in the first place, or d) have just been matched up against stronger players in lane so far every game? It's not like anyone is a master Fizz player already, so maybe instead of just giving up on Fizz top after 5 games, you could keep trying and really figure it out.

On November 20 2011 07:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
If a player is "trapped" at an ELO for a significantly long time guess what: THAT IS THEIR ELO.

On November 20 2011 08:01 TieN.nS) wrote:


Well, I was in that game where you were top against Shen and it seemed like you'd never even played against an AP Shen top before. Your posts make it seem like you know all of the ins and outs of these matchups, when you've played Fizz for two days. Are you losing lanes because Fizz CAN'T win those lanes, or because a) you don't know the matchups, b) aren't familiar with Fizz, c) aren't a strong laner in the first place, or d) have just been matched up against stronger players in lane so far every game? It's not like anyone is a master Fizz player already, so maybe instead of just giving up on Fizz top after 5 games, you could keep trying and really figure it out.

On November 20 2011 07:59 Craton wrote:
Losses and wins aren't always the same amount. It's completely possible (and has happened already) to have a negative win-loss and still be 1900+.

For every game you get with morons or d/cs, so to do other players. Elo exists to give you opponents at a similar level of skill to your own and to your team, which is does once. This happens a lot sooner than the 100 games you talk about -- even 50 games is stretching how many you need to be near your appropriate rating.

Your example is even more telling of the myth of Elo hell, as you're arguing against the system saying that someone who can only play one champion of one role should be a "higher elo" than they really are.

What you're really trying to argue with this is that supports are less impactful in a game than carries. Food for thought: my support Janna has the highest win percent of any of my champions with >5 games played (81%), which includes many of the games I played at my peak S1 Elo. Everyone likes to rag on the support role for being the easiest, but any good team (and especially heavy AD players) will tell you the support makes a tremendous difference in a game.

I also greatly question the accuracy of your statistics.

On November 20 2011 08:22 Two_DoWn wrote:

I think b is given, and d could have easily been true as well. However, speaking in a general sense about my experience with fizz, he is best when he has the opportunity to harass and win trades because, well, thats what his kit is designed to do. The problem gets to be that you have to be melee in order to do that. You cant trade efficiently with free sustain/harass heroes because most of them get ranged harass, while all yours is melee. Take shen for example. There is literally NO WAY to stop him from throwing a q every 4 seconds at my head, so just trying to out farm him is out. If, in turn, I try to trade with him, I get to q-w, which does do decent damage, the only problem being that he then gets to q-auto me, which is going to hurt probably just as much. Then we run into the issue of what happens next. Do I stay and hit 1 more time? If I do, I am going to eat an auto attack and possible passive proc, but in either case shen is getting 5+ health from me for each auto he lands, and more innate tankiness than I have. If I run, my combo is on a longer CD than Shen's, so I am going to have to eat another q before even thinking about trading again. If I am missing some glaring truth please let me know, but I fail to see how you can win that lane without the shen being brain dead.

On November 20 2011 07:29 Craton wrote:
/ignore ally
carry game

On November 20 2011 08:24 ManyCookies wrote:
Pulled entirely out of my ass. I have no idea what the actual win rate of a 1400 player is in 1100-1200 ELO is, but 55% is a reasonable figure to use. Those calculations were to show that the amount of trapped people wouldn't be something insignificant like .0001%.

Again, I'm not justifying every person who complains that he's "trapped" at his ELO. That's ridiculous; if you've played 100 games, chances are you belong at the ELO you're at. But over hundreds of players, there will be a significant portion of players who will be "trapped".

On November 20 2011 08:34 Demonace34 wrote:
I doubt someone who is 1400 will get trapped between 1100-1200.

Eventually people need to realize that they have problems in their play that they need to improve before climbing any higher regardless of how much their team sucks.

On November 20 2011 07:00 MoonBear wrote:
Interestingly, someone who was 1536 Elo decided to disprove Elo Hell by dodging to -18 Elo and then grinding back up again to Gold Elo. He also recorded all 174 games it took to get back to Gold Elo. 153-21 record.

Linky

On November 20 2011 08:59 rigwarl wrote:He was just better than everyone else at that level because he actually last hit with his auto and moved back and forth in lane instead of using hold position or autoattacking). And that was the ONLY GUY out of A THOUSAND players who I even for a second questioned might also have been a smurf.

On November 20 2011 09:12 benefluence wrote:
Hi, I'm not sure if I should open my own thread for this post or not. If so, just complain at me and I'll move it.

I would like to pick up jungling so I can more effectively play rammus on SR. He can lane, especially at my level (normals only- no ranked; odds of actually having a jungler on a team are about 50/50), but it's not exactly optimal. What's the best way to pick up jungling, having never done it before, while hurting your allies least as you learn?

Is it worth it to just set up an custom game to get a feel for opening jungle paths? Which aspects of jungling (clearing fast/consistently, watching for gank opportunities, etc.) should I focus on most as I start out (i.e., which will help the team most if I don't do quite as well on the others)?

Thanks!

On November 20 2011 09:12 benefluence wrote:
Hi, I'm not sure if I should open my own thread for this post or not. If so, just complain at me and I'll move it.

I would like to pick up jungling so I can more effectively play rammus on SR. He can lane, especially at my level (normals only- no ranked; odds of actually having a jungler on a team are about 50/50), but it's not exactly optimal. What's the best way to pick up jungling, having never done it before, while hurting your allies least as you learn?

Is it worth it to just set up an custom game to get a feel for opening jungle paths? Which aspects of jungling (clearing fast/consistently, watching for gank opportunities, etc.) should I focus on most as I start out (i.e., which will help the team most if I don't do quite as well on the others)?

Thanks!

On November 20 2011 09:13 Haemonculus wrote:
ELO hell is a tricky subject. It exists everywhere, and you're not stuck in it.

Yes, some games are entirely out of your control. Some games you go 8-0 in lane, shit all over your lane opponent, turn enemy ganks into double kills, etc, but still lose because your team would rather farm wolves than contest baron, or just keeps getting caught out of position over and over and over again, or you suddenly notice that the enemy vayne has 10 kills and has been farming uncontested. Sometimes one of your teammates rages and/or quits or dcs or trolls.

And sometimes you get your ass carried hard. Or the enemy team has a leaver or troll or disc, or just keeps making retarded decisions. It all balances out in the end.

I've had games where I crush my lane and can't carry the team, and I've had games where I could afk in base all game and my team would win without me.

You'll also run into idiots/trolls/horrible players at all ELOs too, so don't think they're a plight unique to your elo, lol.

I'm arguing that any individual player has less of an impact on the course of a game than in a single player game like SC2. And that will inevitably lead to some unlucky people with a disproportionally high amount of leaver/AFKs on their team, which causes them to be "trapped" at an ELO lower than they strictly should be at.

On November 20 2011 09:13 Haemonculus wrote:
ELO hell is a tricky subject. It exists everywhere, and you're not stuck in it.

Yes, some games are entirely out of your control. Some games you go 8-0 in lane, shit all over your lane opponent, turn enemy ganks into double kills, etc, but still lose because your team would rather farm wolves than contest baron, or just keeps getting caught out of position over and over and over again, or you suddenly notice that the enemy vayne has 10 kills and has been farming uncontested. Sometimes one of your teammates rages and/or quits or dcs or trolls.