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[Patch 1.0.0.129: Fizz] General Discussion - Page 18

Forum Index > LoL General
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Want to rage about your latest loss?
Use the QQ thread.
If you whine in GD, you'll get warned.
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 21:43:23
November 15 2011 21:42 GMT
#341
i pretty much stopped playing phoenix udyr when you were basically forced to get wriggles to keep up in the jungle, kus i hated not being able to just do hog->belt->w/e tank items you want. Unless they have an ultra-fast dragon-er that you have to watch out for, if you can get away w/o wriggles, then it's better imho. If you really want to do wriggles and aspeed shenanigans, you're prob just better off just doing tigerdyr
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 15 2011 21:44 GMT
#342
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:
except i dont, I don't agree. I think RE is better almost always. what is the point of lvl 2 w again?

I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!

Level 2 W allows you to clear at significantly higher health. And in the case of the new masteries, allows you to start boots+3pot and have enough HP to gank after a full clear.
Moderator
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 15 2011 21:49 GMT
#343
okay i finally got to play fizz

>rylai's 100% does not work with his w's passive nor it's active
>rylai's is an awful item on him tbh, i'd rather have mallet if you need the slow/HP, but i'd rather RATHER have real damage items i think
>i question the efficiency of an AP build when his W is so strong
>at the same time, his W makes last-hitting under a tower a nightmare (if you "prep" a ranged creep like you would with any other champ with an auto, it will die due to the dot, but if you wait for a tower hit first, you the dot won't apply fast enough to kill the creep from 1 attack. CRISIS) so i think that pushing champs will be very strong against him
>cuteness overload
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 15 2011 21:50 GMT
#344
On November 16 2011 06:44 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:
except i dont, I don't agree. I think RE is better almost always. what is the point of lvl 2 w again?

I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!

Level 2 W allows you to clear at significantly higher health. And in the case of the new masteries, allows you to start boots+3pot and have enough HP to gank after a full clear.


haven't tried the new masteries, I could totally see that

as for health issues before I never had any with cloth +5pot. like not even close to having any issues.


but yeah i def like the concept of starting boots + 3pot
JewJewBees
Profile Joined April 2010
United States87 Posts
November 15 2011 21:52 GMT
#345
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:


I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!


i think the only time you might want to go bear at 2 is if you're doing the wolves->blue->their wraiths path and have to skill bear to get away
otherwise not having turtle when you're doing red actually means you get pretty low, might have to end up going back after your first full clear

if you wanted to gank at 2 or w/e then you might as well run tiger udyr
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
November 15 2011 21:52 GMT
#346
Oh shits....is it true? 6 bans?
Also no one answered my question earlier....someone mention a 7/1013 jungle masteries page.
Would you want to take Greed and Def. mastery for the +gp/10?
Or go for Vet scars and fewer points in Hardiness...?
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
November 15 2011 21:52 GMT
#347
On November 16 2011 06:50 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 06:44 TheYango wrote:
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:
except i dont, I don't agree. I think RE is better almost always. what is the point of lvl 2 w again?

I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!

Level 2 W allows you to clear at significantly higher health. And in the case of the new masteries, allows you to start boots+3pot and have enough HP to gank after a full clear.


haven't tried the new masteries, I could totally see that

as for health issues before I never had any with cloth +5pot. like not even close to having any issues.


but yeah i def like the concept of starting boots + 3pot


with w second you can really explore a lot more openings. I've seen dblade, longsword and boots openings and they clear fairly safely, but i'd imagine a lot hinges on that lvl 2 w (prob dblade in particular)
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 15 2011 21:58 GMT
#348
On November 16 2011 06:52 JewJewBees wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:


I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!


i think the only time you might want to go bear at 2 is if you're doing the wolves->blue->their wraiths path and have to skill bear to get away
otherwise not having turtle when you're doing red actually means you get pretty low, might have to end up going back after your first full clear

if you wanted to gank at 2 or w/e then you might as well run tiger udyr


i generally went back to get boots before i did red anyways i didn't see any sense in doing otherwise
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 22:01:45
November 15 2011 22:01 GMT
#349
On November 16 2011 06:58 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 06:52 JewJewBees wrote:
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:


I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!


i think the only time you might want to go bear at 2 is if you're doing the wolves->blue->their wraiths path and have to skill bear to get away
otherwise not having turtle when you're doing red actually means you get pretty low, might have to end up going back after your first full clear

if you wanted to gank at 2 or w/e then you might as well run tiger udyr


i generally went back to get boots before i did red anyways i didn't see any sense in doing otherwise

Because doing a full clear with red allows you to buy and contest the enemy first red with double buff if they're a jungler that bluepills before doing red? If you take your red after your first clear, you miss that opportunity.
Moderator
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
November 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#350
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 06:18 mr_tolkien wrote:
On November 16 2011 04:46 TheYango wrote:
On November 16 2011 04:41 mr_tolkien wrote:
WTF are you saying dude.

Phœnix Udyr maxes R > E > Q > W, with 1 point in W at lvl2. Phœnix Udyr doesn't even need sustain in the jungle, just begin cloth 5 pots and with this 5 pots you can stay long enough in the jungle to buy your Wriggle XD

Late game Phœnix Udyr switching betwee R and Q lvl 5 is just craze, and ganks are WAY more powerful with E. As well as faster clear times.

Jatt, SV, and Oddone all verifiably go R>W>E>Q. W isn't about the sustainability, it's about the fact that it's a retarded amount of free HP in teamfights.

On November 16 2011 04:43 Ryuu314 wrote:
On November 16 2011 04:41 mr_tolkien wrote:
On November 16 2011 03:30 Sandster wrote:
On November 16 2011 03:22 Iplaythings wrote:
On November 16 2011 02:55 Slayer91 wrote:
On November 16 2011 00:32 Iplaythings wrote:
On November 16 2011 00:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
What does everyone think of these Masteries setups?

Sustaining Top: 0/21/9 < - get everything that gives regen
AP Carry: 21/0/9 <- XD dat Annie burst! Get runic mastery on utility to extend the duration of blue.
Support: 8/0/22 <- Mental Force + Sorcery on Offense
AD Carry: 24/6/0
Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this
Ganking Jungle: 21/0/9 <- Shaco must run this. Other junglers run this if the team is weak in the early game or the other team is super strong early.

Dont see why you'd run 0/21/9 on any jungler other than amumu tbh..

All benefit soo much from the old 21/0/9, doubt that's gonna change


Udyr. Rammus. Possibly Skarner. You'd never ever want to go 21 offense on pheonix udyr and rammus and skarner is debateable.
Prepatch pheonix udyr with mostly utility spec and movement quints clears full jungle in 3:20, and all the offense masteries suck o him. Tiger udyr is a different story though. Rammus I'm not sure about because just getting spiked shell and going 21 offense might be interesting in the wriggles builds. But juggernaught veteran scars and even mercenary are all really nice when you're going warmogs as well.

I'm talking about tiger udyr since i haven't played phoenix in ages, maybe I should try it out, do people still only get 3 points in phoenix as a norm for the early game?
I can't not see it justified to run 21 offense, you're like the old udyr which levels faster than solo lanes as long as you have jungle to clear.
Skarner is debatable, I'd say it depends on what runes you're running and who your opposing jungler is (as if, the more offensive jungler the more defensive you build skarner).


Phoenix udyr maxes R > W > E > Q (3 in Q vs 3 in E is debatable). 21 offense is pointless as phoenix because you clear so freaking fast anyway, and points 10-20 in offense doesn't do much for him. Meanwhile the health, move speed, damage reduction, and Juggernaut are all insanely good for Udyr for the entire game.

For almost every other jungler you have a suboptimal rune/mastery set to clear jungle faster, but Udyr is so fast that you can build him normally.

EDIT: points 10-20 gives you crit/lethality, lifesteal, and flat armor pen / AP. None of those stats are are particularly good, since you'd rather have attack speed instead. If you plan on using tiger then yes, 21 offense is the way to go, but phoenix is considered stronger right now in jungle.

WTF are you saying dude.

Phœnix Udyr maxes R > E > Q > W, with 1 point in W at lvl2. Phœnix Udyr doesn't even need sustain in the jungle, just begin cloth 5 pots and with this 5 pots you can stay long enough in the jungle to buy your Wriggle XD

Late game Phœnix Udyr switching betwee R and Q lvl 5 is just craze, and ganks are WAY more powerful with E. As well as faster clear times.

Erm...I'm pretty sure top Udyrs like Jatt go R>W>E>Q with 1 in E at 4. The sustain and tankiness W gives is just too good to pass up. You don't really get W so you can sustain in jungle, you get it because a 200+hp shield every 3-5 seconds is ridiculously strong for you durability. Also, getting Wriggles on Phoenix Udyr isn't necessarily core. I know Jatt never gets Wriggles on Phoenix Udyr except in edge cases.

On November 16 2011 04:45 travis wrote:
Apparently everyone has differing opinions on phoenix udyr.

I go rerw in that order

it takes a long time before i take a point in q, and i max r then e then w unless I think i need the tankiness in which case I probably max w before e

The 4 first skills are RWRE for everyone, I agree, but past this, I see a lot of Udyr's MAXING E over W. Buy the time the teamfights happen, you'll be 12-13 already, which means at least 2 or 3 points in another skill ! It can be turtle if you want, your 3 lvl 5s are personnal choices I feel.


except i dont, I don't agree. I think RE is better almost always. what is the point of lvl 2 w again?

I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!

I think the opposite lol. I take W at lvl2 because I open blue, and spamming W each time it's on cool down, allows you to do wolves/blue/their wraiths/(their golems if they gank)/wolves/wraiths/red/golem ah ah ah. Udyr on early blue is ridiculous in the jungle.
The legend of Darien lives on
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 22:14:31
November 15 2011 22:13 GMT
#351
Previously W at level 2 was highly recommended because of how squishy you are on wraiths/red without it. Meanwhile E is completely pointless unless you're ganking. Also, you could previously do full clear and immediately gank at level 4 with red without having to back.

With the new masteries I have no idea.
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
November 15 2011 22:17 GMT
#352
On November 16 2011 07:13 Sandster wrote:
Previously W at level 2 was highly recommended because of how squishy you are on wraiths/red without it. Meanwhile E is completely pointless unless you're ganking. Also, you could previously do full clear and immediately gank at level 4 with red without having to back.

With the new masteries I have no idea.

new masteries basically does the same thing
Kyhron
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States945 Posts
November 15 2011 22:19 GMT
#353
after playing with fizz for most of today i have to say building him AP is decent but building him with attack speed and on hit effects is alot more fun and efficent. havent tried an ad build but going boots wits malady mallet is really good. might try an atmogs after wits next chance i get.
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
November 15 2011 22:19 GMT
#354
On November 16 2011 07:17 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 07:13 Sandster wrote:
Previously W at level 2 was highly recommended because of how squishy you are on wraiths/red without it. Meanwhile E is completely pointless unless you're ganking. Also, you could previously do full clear and immediately gank at level 4 with red without having to back.

With the new masteries I have no idea.

new masteries basically does the same thing


But you open boots +3 now? How does a wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> gols -> red look hp wise? Assuming 9/21/0 or 0/21/9. Don't have the opportunity to test this myself for a while.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 15 2011 22:24 GMT
#355
On November 16 2011 07:01 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 06:58 travis wrote:
On November 16 2011 06:52 JewJewBees wrote:
On November 16 2011 06:41 travis wrote:


I can see going W lvl 2 if im not starting blue.. but if im starting blue i simply want E to be able to run faster or gank at lvl 2/3 if there is some kind of weird great opportunity. I don't need w at lvl 2!


i think the only time you might want to go bear at 2 is if you're doing the wolves->blue->their wraiths path and have to skill bear to get away
otherwise not having turtle when you're doing red actually means you get pretty low, might have to end up going back after your first full clear

if you wanted to gank at 2 or w/e then you might as well run tiger udyr


i generally went back to get boots before i did red anyways i didn't see any sense in doing otherwise

Because doing a full clear with red allows you to buy and contest the enemy first red with double buff if they're a jungler that bluepills before doing red? If you take your red after your first clear, you miss that opportunity.


well now this is getting very situational..
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 22:28:16
November 15 2011 22:27 GMT
#356
On November 16 2011 07:13 Sandster wrote:
Previously W at level 2 was highly recommended because of how squishy you are on wraiths/red without it. Meanwhile E is completely pointless unless you're ganking. Also, you could previously do full clear and immediately gank at level 4 with red without having to back.



yeah except if I wanted to I can still do that just fine with e lvl 2 instead of w lvl 2. cloth + 5pot i could do red if I wanted and have nearly full life. and e isn't pointless.. you run faster. given that with blue u don't run out of mana i like running faster, I clear my jungle faster.

none of this arguing is supposed to be saying "you guys are doing it wrong", im just saying I think some of you act like the best method is a little more clear than it really is. or maybe I just suck. but I really don't think that's the case.
OGKruemmel
Profile Joined March 2011
Croatia270 Posts
November 15 2011 22:32 GMT
#357
haha, that cait nerf and the mf buff....
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
November 15 2011 22:37 GMT
#358
maxing e before w on udyr is laughable, cant believe this has gone on for pages.

udyr is about as faceroll as it gets, but you can fuck it up if you dont skill properly. guess thats where those squishy bad udyrs come from.
Brees on in
eNyoron
Profile Joined September 2009
United States170 Posts
November 15 2011 22:52 GMT
#359
If you do W at lvl 2 you can do a full jungle sweep, be at full health and still have 1-2 potions left depending on the strength of your leash. With the new masteries, this is done by 3:20. And maxing out E to get to jungle camps faster? Irrelevant after the first clear because you just time their respawn. Get there as they spawn, don't try to play catchup with them. All maxing out E does is let you initiate ganks better... but without a leveled W, you can't dive and they have a pretty good ability to just turn around and kill you.

0sm9sm8sm... the beginning of the end.
red_
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8474 Posts
November 15 2011 22:52 GMT
#360
The only argument would be maxing R before W, and even that is pretty silly. Udyr totally bosses people around by using his ridiculous shield + armor/mr to just spam effective health all over a fight. If you don't have a good shield people will focus you and crush you, fast, especially the carries you're trying to bully.

I wonder if Jatt will consider going back to his old Sapphire+2pot opening with the new masteries, Sheen isn't as good as wit's end, but you get it faster because you can build into it with an opening item(unless you want to start null mantle...). Could even give up a bit of the 2nd jungle clearing speed and go back to catalyst rush udyr, that way you have crazy mana sustain even after you give up your 2nd blue.
How did the experience of working at Mr Burns' Nuclear Plant influence Homer's composition of the Iliad and Odyssey?
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