On November 16 2011 00:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote: What does everyone think of these Masteries setups?
Sustaining Top: 0/21/9 < - get everything that gives regen AP Carry: 21/0/9 <- XD dat Annie burst! Get runic mastery on utility to extend the duration of blue. Support: 8/0/22 <- Mental Force + Sorcery on Offense AD Carry: 24/6/0 Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this Ganking Jungle: 21/0/9 <- Shaco must run this. Other junglers run this if the team is weak in the early game or the other team is super strong early.
Dont see why you'd run 0/21/9 on any jungler other than amumu tbh..
All benefit soo much from the old 21/0/9, doubt that's gonna change
Udyr. Rammus. Possibly Skarner. You'd never ever want to go 21 offense on pheonix udyr and rammus and skarner is debateable. Prepatch pheonix udyr with mostly utility spec and movement quints clears full jungle in 3:20, and all the offense masteries suck o him. Tiger udyr is a different story though. Rammus I'm not sure about because just getting spiked shell and going 21 offense might be interesting in the wriggles builds. But juggernaught veteran scars and even mercenary are all really nice when you're going warmogs as well.
I'm talking about tiger udyr since i haven't played phoenix in ages, maybe I should try it out, do people still only get 3 points in phoenix as a norm for the early game? I can't not see it justified to run 21 offense, you're like the old udyr which levels faster than solo lanes as long as you have jungle to clear. Skarner is debatable, I'd say it depends on what runes you're running and who your opposing jungler is (as if, the more offensive jungler the more defensive you build skarner).
Phoenix udyr maxes R > W > E > Q (3 in Q vs 3 in E is debatable). 21 offense is pointless as phoenix because you clear so freaking fast anyway, and points 10-20 in offense doesn't do much for him. Meanwhile the health, move speed, damage reduction, and Juggernaut are all insanely good for Udyr for the entire game.
For almost every other jungler you have a suboptimal rune/mastery set to clear jungle faster, but Udyr is so fast that you can build him normally.
EDIT: points 10-20 gives you crit/lethality, lifesteal, and flat armor pen / AP. None of those stats are are particularly good, since you'd rather have attack speed instead. If you plan on using tiger then yes, 21 offense is the way to go, but phoenix is considered stronger right now in jungle.
WTF are you saying dude.
Phœnix Udyr maxes R > E > Q > W, with 1 point in W at lvl2. Phœnix Udyr doesn't even need sustain in the jungle, just begin cloth 5 pots and with this 5 pots you can stay long enough in the jungle to buy your Wriggle XD
Late game Phœnix Udyr switching betwee R and Q lvl 5 is just craze, and ganks are WAY more powerful with E. As well as faster clear times.
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it's R > W > E > Q in terms of what to max
OddOne, Jatt, and SaintVicious all go with this. -_- don't mislead people
EDIT: Alright I read more discussion on this.
I always go wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> red -> double golems as it's what i've seen from all top jungler streamers.
If you don't max turtle stance on udyr, I don't know what to say to you. it's 200+ free health every THREE seconds with 40% CDR, which you should be building for.
You cannot possibly lose a teamfight at level 11 when you have turtle and phoenix maxed with blue buff on yourself. Wits end + merc treads and you're god mode at pre 20 minute fights. After that, you can feed blue to your AP mids without losing as much as you should be building for CDR and NOT HEALTH. facepalm every single time an Udyr builds warmogs. Jatt says "CDR > HP because of turtle stance"
If you play Udyr to go q and r for auto attacks, you'll without exception die to anyone competent.
On November 16 2011 06:05 Sabin010 wrote: With the Jungle changes how viable are the following, jungle blitz, jungle renekton, jungle irelia, jungle leona, jungle veigar, jungle xerath.
Was doing some jungle Leona today was pretty beasty, really good for lvl 3 counter jungle gank catching them when they go by red/blue depending on starting spots of other hero.
On November 16 2011 07:52 red_ wrote: The only argument would be maxing R before W, and even that is pretty silly. Udyr totally bosses people around by using his ridiculous shield + armor/mr to just spam effective health all over a fight. If you don't have a good shield people will focus you and crush you, fast, especially the carries you're trying to bully.
I wonder if Jatt will consider going back to his old Sapphire+2pot opening with the new masteries, Sheen isn't as good as wit's end, but you get it faster because you can build into it with an opening item(unless you want to start null mantle...). Could even give up a bit of the 2nd jungle clearing speed and go back to catalyst rush udyr, that way you have crazy mana sustain even after you give up your 2nd blue.
Since you have to get boots before Wit's End anyway, starting boots would be pretty nice. Assuming you start wolves/blue, Udyr doesn't really have that much mana trouble in the jungle; it's only when he starts spamming bear stance that he might run into some mana issues.
On November 16 2011 08:07 Bluebush wrote: Every time CLG argues with each other after a game, it's so awkward to listen to. Poor jiji getting blamed for everything.
Wait... does Havoc (the mastery) increase all damage dealt or just physical damage -.- I mean I think its all, but it looks like a muscled dude so I don't know if I want to take it -.-
Why would you want jungle Renek or Irelia? Even if they can clear acceptably and find room to farm after laning, their lane control top lane is so much stronger than any amount of jungle control you could ever hope for from them.
On November 16 2011 08:10 Bluebush wrote: Oh, and HSGG trying to pull Elementz out of state of the league for a random scrim... I dunno man...
Well I'll be honest, elementz is the least dedicated to scrimming. He's never there, how many times have you seen clg scrim without elementz because he's off doing workouts or out doing something.
On November 16 2011 00:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote: What does everyone think of these Masteries setups?
Sustaining Top: 0/21/9 < - get everything that gives regen AP Carry: 21/0/9 <- XD dat Annie burst! Get runic mastery on utility to extend the duration of blue. Support: 8/0/22 <- Mental Force + Sorcery on Offense AD Carry: 24/6/0 Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this Ganking Jungle: 21/0/9 <- Shaco must run this. Other junglers run this if the team is weak in the early game or the other team is super strong early.
Dont see why you'd run 0/21/9 on any jungler other than amumu tbh..
All benefit soo much from the old 21/0/9, doubt that's gonna change
Udyr. Rammus. Possibly Skarner. You'd never ever want to go 21 offense on pheonix udyr and rammus and skarner is debateable. Prepatch pheonix udyr with mostly utility spec and movement quints clears full jungle in 3:20, and all the offense masteries suck o him. Tiger udyr is a different story though. Rammus I'm not sure about because just getting spiked shell and going 21 offense might be interesting in the wriggles builds. But juggernaught veteran scars and even mercenary are all really nice when you're going warmogs as well.
I'm talking about tiger udyr since i haven't played phoenix in ages, maybe I should try it out, do people still only get 3 points in phoenix as a norm for the early game? I can't not see it justified to run 21 offense, you're like the old udyr which levels faster than solo lanes as long as you have jungle to clear. Skarner is debatable, I'd say it depends on what runes you're running and who your opposing jungler is (as if, the more offensive jungler the more defensive you build skarner).
Phoenix udyr maxes R > W > E > Q (3 in Q vs 3 in E is debatable). 21 offense is pointless as phoenix because you clear so freaking fast anyway, and points 10-20 in offense doesn't do much for him. Meanwhile the health, move speed, damage reduction, and Juggernaut are all insanely good for Udyr for the entire game.
For almost every other jungler you have a suboptimal rune/mastery set to clear jungle faster, but Udyr is so fast that you can build him normally.
EDIT: points 10-20 gives you crit/lethality, lifesteal, and flat armor pen / AP. None of those stats are are particularly good, since you'd rather have attack speed instead. If you plan on using tiger then yes, 21 offense is the way to go, but phoenix is considered stronger right now in jungle.
WTF are you saying dude.
Phœnix Udyr maxes R > E > Q > W, with 1 point in W at lvl2. Phœnix Udyr doesn't even need sustain in the jungle, just begin cloth 5 pots and with this 5 pots you can stay long enough in the jungle to buy your Wriggle XD
Late game Phœnix Udyr switching betwee R and Q lvl 5 is just craze, and ganks are WAY more powerful with E. As well as faster clear times.
................
it's R > W > E > Q in terms of what to max
OddOne, Jatt, and SaintVicious all go with this. -_- don't mislead people
EDIT: Alright I read more discussion on this.
I always go wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> red -> double golems as it's what i've seen from all top jungler streamers.
If you don't max turtle stance on udyr, I don't know what to say to you. it's 200+ free health every THREE seconds with 40% CDR, which you should be building for.
You cannot possibly lose a teamfight at level 11 when you have turtle and phoenix maxed with blue buff on yourself. Wits end + merc treads and you're god mode at pre 20 minute fights. After that, you can feed blue to your AP mids without losing as much as you should be building for CDR and NOT HEALTH. facepalm every single time an Udyr builds warmogs. Jatt says "CDR > HP because of turtle stance"
If you play Udyr to go q and r for auto attacks, you'll without exception die to anyone competent.
Because you think having Wriggles and Wits end is completly bypassing tankiness ? If the opposing AD is good at kiting, your shield will just be used to tank the damage you could have avoided moving faster in his face with E :D I don't see the use of blue on Udyr past the first though, and would see why Turtle is good if you plan to take the first 3 blues. The mid should ALWAYS have better use of the blue than you though. And as I said, with W max, your ganks will be lacking, your clears will be longer (no speed boost between camps, and turtle is just useless at taking out camps), and even though you'll be more tanky, you're not much of an initiator anyway (no real gap closer, no AoE CC, ...). Your goal is to get into people's face and be able to annoy them while staying alive, like all tanks. Going early E maxing and no W allows you to do that even better, and when you hit an E, have 3 passive stacks, and press R, the guy you're hitting will probably be dead by the time he is out of the stun.
I don't go warmogs in my build btw, but phage/giant's belt, then decide on what to branch. Warmogs is awful if bought too late, and the goal of all «tanky» chars is to be at the frontier between too tanky (meaning you won't do shit, as nobody will care about you with a good reason) and too much DPS (which is why hybrid DPS/defense objects like Wits end are good). Except Singed.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree though, because nobody here seems to have ever tried to max E over W. But having played exclusively Udyr for 1 month (around 150 games with him this last month), and having toyed with all Udyr's build (Tiger-Turtle, Phœnix-Turtle, Phœnix-Bear, Phœnix-Tiger, ...), I can ensure you the most effective for jungle Udyr is Phœnix-Bear. In lane it's Turtle-Tiger though.
This is one of those times when appealing to authority really is the best way to go. Jatt has been an Udyr specialist for like a year and a half now, I'm going to go ahead and use his knowledge base. It's not coincidental that the other top tier junglers, despite actually having quite distinct styles, all agree on the Udyr build, because it's the best.
EPT
