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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country.
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
That my friend is a truly beautiful analogy, well-played.
I actually own a fine Matrioshka penguin. I wouldnt say I was ever some weeb-esque Russophile but it was always somewhere I was really quite fascinated about, especially in my teens. Hell I even did a bit of Russian in school, also a bit of Latin. Probably says a lot about what kind of school I went to that either were even options!
It’s a crying shame that 20-ish laters later (not just that I can now say ‘20 years after my teens’, which is depressing enough) that this is where we currently are situated.
In basically every sphere one cares to look, post-Soviet Russia has made wrong call after wrong call in how to transition into this modern world.
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On August 02 2024 17:59 WombaT wrote:
In basically every sphere one cares to look, post-Soviet Russia has made wrong call after wrong call in how to transition into this modern world.
Because deep down they didn't really want to transition and they didn't even really have time because Putin came to the office not long after the fall of the USSR, he has occupied the position for 20 years and is hell-bent on going back to the glory days of the Soviet Union.
For Russia to transition into a modern country would require decades if not centuries. There's so much to undo there even going back to the tzar days and introduction of vodka as a "national drink" to keep the populace in fugue state and control it.
Even in Poland we still suffer from the vodka effect. It's slowly going away but it's still there.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country.
-this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions.
I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion.
On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =)
On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that:
1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'.
This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans.
2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls.
Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent.
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On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. Show nested quote +On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent.
1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows.
2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well".
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well".
1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm.
2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that.
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On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that.
Yes the sanctions hurt EU more in the short term. Germany especially got hurt a lot by it. Which is why they are so sad they had to impose them due to the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 03 2024 22:25 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that. Yes the sanctions hurt EU more in the short term. Germany especially got hurt a lot by it. Which is why they are so sad they had to impose them due to the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine.
-and I see the timeline differently, with the initial agression being done by the US using Ukrainians as a tool, and the EU is pressed to get involved partly due to the lack of sovereignty, and partly because of the difficulties to bail out.
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On August 03 2024 22:45 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 22:25 Yurie wrote:On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that. Yes the sanctions hurt EU more in the short term. Germany especially got hurt a lot by it. Which is why they are so sad they had to impose them due to the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine. -and I see the timeline differently, with the initial agression being done by the US using Ukrainians as a tool, and the EU is pressed to get involved partly due to the lack of sovereignty, and partly because of the difficulties to bail out.
That's a pretty hot take, stating that it's US and UA who are the aggressors here. Also, the lack of sovereignty on the EU part...
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On August 03 2024 22:45 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 22:25 Yurie wrote:On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that. Yes the sanctions hurt EU more in the short term. Germany especially got hurt a lot by it. Which is why they are so sad they had to impose them due to the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine. -and I see the timeline differently, with the initial agression being done by the US using Ukrainians as a tool, and the EU is pressed to get involved partly due to the lack of sovereignty, and partly because of the difficulties to bail out.
What lack of sovereignty? Most of us don't even like the US. Relations were frosty after Trump. Joining NATO was a no go issue before 2022. Other EU countries had no issue telling the US to fuck off about defense spending.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On August 04 2024 00:08 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 22:45 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 22:25 Yurie wrote:On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that. Yes the sanctions hurt EU more in the short term. Germany especially got hurt a lot by it. Which is why they are so sad they had to impose them due to the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine. -and I see the timeline differently, with the initial agression being done by the US using Ukrainians as a tool, and the EU is pressed to get involved partly due to the lack of sovereignty, and partly because of the difficulties to bail out. That's a pretty hot take, stating that it's US and UA who are the aggressors here. Also, the lack of sovereignty on the EU part...
Sovereignty has an on paper and in practice component. What many EU detractors seem to focus on is entirely the former. Hey great you’ve got your sovereignty back! OK great, enjoy trying to actually actualise this as a solo nation of sub-10 million or whatever it is when you’re existing in a world of legitimate solo superpowers.
There’s a very good reason that the likes of Putin, Trump, China would much rather the EU not be a semi-cohesive bloc. Much easier to pick off the stragglers who are away from the herd.
This component seems to be something our Russian friend either fundamentally doesn’t understand, or does understand but leaves out when it suits an argument.
Those in glass houses of course. Similar sentiments carried the day in the UK, it’s why we’re not in the EU after all. Russia isn’t alone in having delusions of grandeur and making atrocious decisions on that basis.
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On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote:
It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something?
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion.
https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that.
1. not really, Russia had china already then, and also could trade with USA etc, now that's all quite limited. Yeah those sanction were not optimal, but always better than right out declaring war.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 04 2024 00:09 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2024 22:45 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 22:25 Yurie wrote:On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that. Yes the sanctions hurt EU more in the short term. Germany especially got hurt a lot by it. Which is why they are so sad they had to impose them due to the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine. -and I see the timeline differently, with the initial agression being done by the US using Ukrainians as a tool, and the EU is pressed to get involved partly due to the lack of sovereignty, and partly because of the difficulties to bail out. What lack of sovereignty? Most of us don't even like the US. Relations were frosty after Trump. Joining NATO was a no go issue before 2022. Other EU countries had no issue telling the US to fuck off about defense spending.
The evidence on non-sovereignty is based on the number of self-harming actions and policies:
-trade sanctions and Ukraine weapons supply expectingly resulted in high inflation, energy deficit and deindustrialization,
-failure to investigate the Nord Stream bombing,
-the most dependent countries like Moldova, Finland, Poland and the Baltic States consider directly participating in the war. I except France here, because Macron's statements and actions haven't been consistently escalatory,
-biased news coverage of the war, especially in 2022,
-ban of pro-Russian media and heavy censorship on the big platforms like Youtube and Reddit.
The justification of these actions by moral standards is inconsistent with the EU passive position towards Israel in its current war.
All these does not contradict what you say about popular sentiments about the US, because of the mindcontrol argument - if needed, and given enough time, the governments can change social opinion on any topic through propaganda.
On August 04 2024 00:49 WombaT wrote:
There’s a very good reason that the likes of Putin, Trump, China would much rather the EU not be a semi-cohesive bloc. Much easier to pick off the stragglers who are away from the herd.
This component seems to be something our Russian friend either fundamentally doesn’t understand, or does understand but leaves out when it suits an argument.
-that's true, but somehow it is the Eurocomission that shows the most signs of acting in the interests of the US, while some of the European countries look more independent in many aspects (and I don't mean Hungary and Slovakia here).
On August 04 2024 01:27 0x64 wrote:
1. not really, Russia had china already then, and also could trade with USA etc, now that's all quite limited. Yeah those sanction were not optimal, but always better than right out declaring war.
-to get what?
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United States44287 Posts
How does your theory that inflation was caused by the sanctions explain that the inflation came before the sanctions and that countries not participating in the sanctions have more inflation?
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On August 04 2024 02:54 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2024 00:09 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 03 2024 22:45 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 22:25 Yurie wrote:On August 03 2024 22:24 a_ch wrote:On August 03 2024 19:24 0x64 wrote:On August 03 2024 04:34 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 17:07 WombaT wrote:On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote:On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote:
[quote]
Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West".
They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. -this 'collective psyche' thing is extremely difficult and evolving, especially in the case of Russia due to its multinationality. This also makes it easy to misinterpret, intentionally or not. For example, @Manit0u here writes about mass alcohol consumption in Poland, and a similar problem in Russia - but in 2024 we have average pc consumption rate at 8l/year, which is lower than the European average, and ~30% lower compared to Poland. Obviously such false premises would lead to biased conclusions. I agree with your assessment that I don't (completely) understand our own 'collective psyche'. All I see is that today it is quite different from what it has been before the war, and much closer to what it has been 30 years ago (which I like a lot). If any, some of the main and persistent traits/ideas of the Russian society imo are the Westerners/Slavophiles conflict and the related inferiority complex, and anarchism as a political idea. What I am certain about is that not once in my life I've seen the 'we used to rule the world' attitude, as this is quite contrary to what many Russians would like the most - to live in the absence of any coercion. On August 02 2024 17:41 0x64 wrote:
All true and simple, but that not how Russian deflection works. He cannot think outside the box, he is several layers inside the Matrioshka. You remove one layer of mind block, you find exactly the same one just a tiny bit smaller, until you find the last one in the core which cannot be open, and that, my friends is how they prove that removing any layer was useless hence most likely false and you should put back everything together and come to the same conclusions.
Sorry, I cannot take the 'out of the box' claim from someone who has found that primitive Litte Big's clip worthy of a serious discussion =) On the matter of deflection - there are a couple of reasons for that: 1) Many of your claims belong to the realm of non-(dis)provable opinions, like 'Russia will learn the hard way what it means to depends 100% on China for all trade. Currently it seems that they are in honeymoon'. This neither can be proved, non disproved (except for the part on 100% which is of course far from being so), and, by the way, implies that Chinese are somehow inherently worse than Europeans. 2) A well-known technology for propaganda creation is to take your own problem, and project it onto your target. For example, the legends like 'Russians steal toilet bowls and asphalt from Ukraine' were created this way by Ukrainian trolls. Thats why when I see a claim which looks more like a propaganda cliche rather than a well-though argument, I first try to apply it on the opponent. 1. It's not about being worst, business is business, but when you give monopoly to someone you don't control, you become theirs over time. Maybe you were feeling that you were becoming too occidental? who knows. 2. And you do that a little too much, it has become an automatism, therefor we tend to notice a failure to communicate. "That Russian is really weird, everyone else gets it but he keeps making these claims and then doesn't realize how twisted is his logic". We don't really benefit from convincing you that you are wrong and that your way of thinking is making the world a worst place for everyone. But we do understand, even if we don't agree, that Russians thinks that "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well". 1. -that's reasonable, but the EU acts as a monopsony as well, and tends to use politically motivated decisions instead of relying on markets and competition, as for example in Gazprom or Sputnik-V cases. I also think that due to the skewed structure of Russia-EU trade, the trade sanctions imposed by the EU did much more selfharm. 2. "if the life shall suck, it might as well suck for everyone else as well" - dunno, where did you get that. Yes the sanctions hurt EU more in the short term. Germany especially got hurt a lot by it. Which is why they are so sad they had to impose them due to the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine. -and I see the timeline differently, with the initial agression being done by the US using Ukrainians as a tool, and the EU is pressed to get involved partly due to the lack of sovereignty, and partly because of the difficulties to bail out. What lack of sovereignty? Most of us don't even like the US. Relations were frosty after Trump. Joining NATO was a no go issue before 2022. Other EU countries had no issue telling the US to fuck off about defense spending. The evidence on non-sovereignty is based on the number of self-harming actions and policies: -trade sanctions and Ukraine weapons supply expectingly resulted in high inflation, energy deficit and deindustrialization, -failure to investigate the Nord Stream bombing, -the most dependent countries like Moldova, Finland, Poland and the Baltic States consider directly participating in the war. I except France here, because Macron's statements and actions haven't been consistently escalatory, -biased news coverage of the war, especially in 2022, -ban of pro-Russian media and heavy censorship on the big platforms like Youtube and Reddit. The justification of these actions by moral standards is inconsistent with the EU passive position towards Israel in its current war. All these does not contradict what you say about popular sentiments about the US, because of the mindcontrol argument - if needed, and given enough time, the governments can change social opinion on any topic through propaganda. Show nested quote +On August 04 2024 00:49 WombaT wrote:
There’s a very good reason that the likes of Putin, Trump, China would much rather the EU not be a semi-cohesive bloc. Much easier to pick off the stragglers who are away from the herd.
This component seems to be something our Russian friend either fundamentally doesn’t understand, or does understand but leaves out when it suits an argument.
-that's true, but it is the Eurocomission that shows the most signs of acting in the interests of the US, while some of the European countries look more independent in many aspects (and I don't mean Hungary and Slovakia here). Show nested quote +On August 04 2024 01:27 0x64 wrote:
1. not really, Russia had china already then, and also could trade with USA etc, now that's all quite limited. Yeah those sanction were not optimal, but always better than right out declaring war.
-to get what?
No we realised that a) you need to under a nuclear umbrella to be safe (NATO in our case) and b) most of Europe support Ukraine even if it's against their short term intrest because if you don't want war in Europe you make sure that an invasion of another country is either unsuccessful or at least extremely costly.
If Russia didn't have nukes there would likely have been a no fly zone ASAP.
On a global level it also makes sense because if you leave Ukraine out to die alone you also send a very clear message to all small countries that either you get nukes or you are prey to any larger nation who has them. Which is not a situation we want at all because sooner or later someone would use them. Imagine if Georgia had nukes for example, would that make you feel safer?
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On August 04 2024 03:20 KwarK wrote:
How does your theory that inflation was caused by the sanctions explain that the inflation came before the sanctions and that countries not participating in the sanctions have more inflation?
The inflation before the sanctions was from COVID shutdowns and ensuing supply chain issues.Things which people here backed to the hilt but which have been shown in hindsight to be completely unnecessary.
To suggest the sanctions have not caused inflation is laughable.
https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leading-economy-is-falling-behind/
However, the once-great German economy is again in a recession. After being hit by COVID-19, Germany started to recover but was quickly beaten down by the geopolitical ramifications of Russia’s war in Ukraine. Russia, once a provider of cheap natural gas, became the target of almost unanimous Western sanctions, cutting Germany off from much of its energy supply. Although German energy prices have recently fallen, Germany is still recovering economically from the period of higher prices caused by energy shortages, which impacted vast subsectors of the economy, from the world’s largest industrial steel mills to the smallest local bakeries. Apart from a complacent reliance on Russian gas throughout its period of fast growth, Germany’s energy policy faces a detrimental resistance to nuclear energy, a sluggish transition to green energy, and an incredibly slow bureaucracy, all contributing to the nation’s energy crisis.
I thought this was all common knowledge, pretty basic stuff....
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United States44287 Posts
On August 04 2024 09:18 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2024 03:20 KwarK wrote:
How does your theory that inflation was caused by the sanctions explain that the inflation came before the sanctions and that countries not participating in the sanctions have more inflation? The inflation before the sanctions was from COVID shutdowns and ensuing supply chain issues.Things which people here backed to the hilt but which have been shown in hindsight to be completely unnecessary. To suggest the sanctions have not caused inflation is laughable. https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leading-economy-is-falling-behind/Show nested quote +
However, the once-great German economy is again in a recession. After being hit by COVID-19, Germany started to recover but was quickly beaten down by the geopolitical ramifications of Russia’s war in Ukraine. Russia, once a provider of cheap natural gas, became the target of almost unanimous Western sanctions, cutting Germany off from much of its energy supply. Although German energy prices have recently fallen, Germany is still recovering economically from the period of higher prices caused by energy shortages, which impacted vast subsectors of the economy, from the world’s largest industrial steel mills to the smallest local bakeries. Apart from a complacent reliance on Russian gas throughout its period of fast growth, Germany’s energy policy faces a detrimental resistance to nuclear energy, a sluggish transition to green energy, and an incredibly slow bureaucracy, all contributing to the nation’s energy crisis.
I thought this was all common knowledge, pretty basic stuff....
Yes, I know sanctions impacted German energy prices. But placing inflation wholly at the feet of sanctions is completely excluding the impact of COVID shutdowns and supply chain shock.
The Russian is implicitly arguing that on the day the sanctions were enacted the COVID inflation was completely over and had no further impact, only sanctions. It’s nonsensical. Inflation is global and it started long before the sanctions, the sanctions may be a contributing factor in a handful of nations but to assert they’re the sole cause is simply wrong.
Also I’m not entirely sure that everyone on teamliquid was backing the hugely fraudulent trillion dollar payroll protection program that transferred hundreds of billions straight to shareholders through forgiven loans spent on stock buybacks. People here were advocating for taking the vaccination, avoiding unnecessary travel, testing, contact tracing, isolating etc. They weren’t advocating for dropshipping pallets of cash to businesses.
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On August 04 2024 09:18 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2024 03:20 KwarK wrote:
How does your theory that inflation was caused by the sanctions explain that the inflation came before the sanctions and that countries not participating in the sanctions have more inflation? The inflation before the sanctions was from COVID shutdowns and ensuing supply chain issues.Things which people here backed to the hilt but which have been shown in hindsight to be completely unnecessary. To suggest the sanctions have not caused inflation is laughable. https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leading-economy-is-falling-behind/Show nested quote +
However, the once-great German economy is again in a recession. After being hit by COVID-19, Germany started to recover but was quickly beaten down by the geopolitical ramifications of Russia’s war in Ukraine. Russia, once a provider of cheap natural gas, became the target of almost unanimous Western sanctions, cutting Germany off from much of its energy supply. Although German energy prices have recently fallen, Germany is still recovering economically from the period of higher prices caused by energy shortages, which impacted vast subsectors of the economy, from the world’s largest industrial steel mills to the smallest local bakeries. Apart from a complacent reliance on Russian gas throughout its period of fast growth, Germany’s energy policy faces a detrimental resistance to nuclear energy, a sluggish transition to green energy, and an incredibly slow bureaucracy, all contributing to the nation’s energy crisis.
I thought this was all common knowledge, pretty basic stuff....
How exactly were lockdowns shown to be unnecessary?
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Zurich15366 Posts
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Finland965 Posts
Zelensky says that the F-16s have arrived. (Reuters link)
Ukrainian pilots have started flying F-16s for operations within the nation, President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Sunday, confirming the long-awaited arrival of the U.S.-made fighter jets more than 29 months afterRussia's invasion.
Or least a number of them, it's unclear how many pilots or jets Ukraine currently has. According to the article, there are still more pilots in training, and it's also likely that more jets are still on the way. The jets have probably been in action for days, but it's nice to have an official confirmation.
This also means that we'll almost certainly see some of the jets destroyed by enemy action. The airfields and airbases will be high priority targets from now on, so I hope that Ukraine is also receiving more air defense material.
e: Also, Finland a dependent country and considering directly participating in the war? Where are these things coming from?
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EPT
