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Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 704

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6213 Posts
August 09 2024 08:17 GMT
#14061
The problem for Russia is that they're rail dependent to get heavy equipment near to the incursion and I think Ukraine seized a number of key rail lines in the area. Stopping this will be fairly difficult unless they choose to set up defensive lines well behind the current extent of the incursion.

Surging infantry to stop this won't work - even MRAPs are hard to handle without more support, let alone light/heavy armour.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23233 Posts
August 09 2024 08:32 GMT
#14062
On August 09 2024 16:22 Falling wrote:
People are fools if this impacts Ukraine's 'good guys' image. + Show Spoiler +
At the point at which the Allies entered the Rhineland did not suddenly change the moral balance of the war. If an aggressor nation is to be defeated, it's very likely you will have to enter their territory to do so.

Russia has benefited for far too long due to the West hobbling Ukraine's ability to flank and strike where Russia is weak. Because Russia can attack from anywhere, Ukraine must defend everywhere, dispersing their troops. However, Russia, already with the larger army can empty entire parts of the same border and stack their men wherever they want because Ukraine was not allowed to attack across certain lines.

I hope we see some long term value in this attack that can either cut off/ blow up significant supply depots or roll up a flank and capture many troops, easing the northern front because I have no idea if they can afford to hold a huge swath of Russian territory long enough to do land swaps or whatever.

I don't think it's so much about "good guy image" but plausible deniability for making targets in western nations legitimate.

The West doesn't want Russia responding to weapons from their countries attacking targets in Russia by attacking targets in the weapon's country of origin, and Russia doesn't want to be pressured to respond to such attacks in such a way.

It's basically in both sides (not so much actual Ukrainians) interest to limit the conflict to Ukraine.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42692 Posts
August 09 2024 09:09 GMT
#14063
Russian Telegram seems to think that the Russian tanks which were destroyed in transit on day 1 in Kursk were destroyed by a KA52. This is one of the upsides of this kind of attack, Russian command and control has been extremely poor throughout the war with large amounts of blue on blue.

Russia has performed relatively well in set piece attritional battles in which they can reliably level an area without worrying about who is there. They can schedule air attacks weeks in advance knowing the front is basically static etc. But once you introduce variables it all falls apart for them, half the time they’re instructed not to shoot at any aircraft on the assumption that whatever lock they get is friendly and the other half they’re shooting at every aircraft with predictable results.

Regardless of whether Ukraine entrenches or retreats after a successful raid I think this has shown a critical weakness of Russia. And there’s a thousand miles of front to pick from if Ukraine wants to do more of the same. I doubt we’ll see any more frontal attacks into concentrated minefields like we did last year until Ukraine gains air superiority, this more mobile strategy is more effective.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21687 Posts
August 09 2024 09:23 GMT
#14064
On August 09 2024 17:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2024 16:22 Falling wrote:
People are fools if this impacts Ukraine's 'good guys' image. + Show Spoiler +
At the point at which the Allies entered the Rhineland did not suddenly change the moral balance of the war. If an aggressor nation is to be defeated, it's very likely you will have to enter their territory to do so.

Russia has benefited for far too long due to the West hobbling Ukraine's ability to flank and strike where Russia is weak. Because Russia can attack from anywhere, Ukraine must defend everywhere, dispersing their troops. However, Russia, already with the larger army can empty entire parts of the same border and stack their men wherever they want because Ukraine was not allowed to attack across certain lines.

I hope we see some long term value in this attack that can either cut off/ blow up significant supply depots or roll up a flank and capture many troops, easing the northern front because I have no idea if they can afford to hold a huge swath of Russian territory long enough to do land swaps or whatever.

I don't think it's so much about "good guy image" but plausible deniability for making targets in western nations legitimate.

The West doesn't want Russia responding to weapons from their countries attacking targets in Russia by attacking targets in the weapon's country of origin, and Russia doesn't want to be pressured to respond to such attacks in such a way.

It's basically in both sides (not so much actual Ukrainians) interest to limit the conflict to Ukraine.
Russia responding by attacking a NATO country would be literal suicide.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4555 Posts
August 09 2024 10:04 GMT
#14065
Now is the time where we would be extremely interested in A_CH's opinions. When the propaganda has no coherence formed yet.

Also reports of Youtube being blocked in Russia, is it still blocked?
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
August 09 2024 10:07 GMT
#14066
On August 09 2024 18:09 KwarK wrote:
Russian Telegram seems to think that the Russian tanks which were destroyed in transit on day 1 in Kursk were destroyed by a KA52. This is one of the upsides of this kind of attack, Russian command and control has been extremely poor throughout the war with large amounts of blue on blue.

Russia has performed relatively well in set piece attritional battles in which they can reliably level an area without worrying about who is there. They can schedule air attacks weeks in advance knowing the front is basically static etc. But once you introduce variables it all falls apart for them, half the time they’re instructed not to shoot at any aircraft on the assumption that whatever lock they get is friendly and the other half they’re shooting at every aircraft with predictable results.

Regardless of whether Ukraine entrenches or retreats after a successful raid I think this has shown a critical weakness of Russia. And there’s a thousand miles of front to pick from if Ukraine wants to do more of the same. I doubt we’ll see any more frontal attacks into concentrated minefields like we did last year until Ukraine gains air superiority, this more mobile strategy is more effective.


Yes. Russia has really nailed down the large scale attritional warfare where they can just pour more shells and bodies on the problem. Rapid response to distant parts of the front is definitely not their forte.

This video sums it up nicely:


Also touches on the big problem for the RU propaganda streams and media. They've got a big headache and people are really confused. They did report the incursion but said it was small and quickly stopped so nothing to worry about. This directly contradicts the fact that people can see UA soldiers outside their windows and calls to evacuate whole towns.

I'm seriously interested in how they're going to try and spin this (and continue calling this "special operation" instead of war).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4555 Posts
August 09 2024 10:16 GMT
#14067
On August 09 2024 19:07 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2024 18:09 KwarK wrote:
Russian Telegram seems to think that the Russian tanks which were destroyed in transit on day 1 in Kursk were destroyed by a KA52. This is one of the upsides of this kind of attack, Russian command and control has been extremely poor throughout the war with large amounts of blue on blue.

Russia has performed relatively well in set piece attritional battles in which they can reliably level an area without worrying about who is there. They can schedule air attacks weeks in advance knowing the front is basically static etc. But once you introduce variables it all falls apart for them, half the time they’re instructed not to shoot at any aircraft on the assumption that whatever lock they get is friendly and the other half they’re shooting at every aircraft with predictable results.

Regardless of whether Ukraine entrenches or retreats after a successful raid I think this has shown a critical weakness of Russia. And there’s a thousand miles of front to pick from if Ukraine wants to do more of the same. I doubt we’ll see any more frontal attacks into concentrated minefields like we did last year until Ukraine gains air superiority, this more mobile strategy is more effective.


Yes. Russia has really nailed down the large scale attritional warfare where they can just pour more shells and bodies on the problem. Rapid response to distant parts of the front is definitely not their forte.

This video sums it up nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3s8VZsKXc

Also touches on the big problem for the RU propaganda streams and media. They've got a big headache and people are really confused. They did report the incursion but said it was small and quickly stopped so nothing to worry about. This directly contradicts the fact that people can see UA soldiers outside their windows and calls to evacuate whole towns.

I'm seriously interested in how they're going to try and spin this (and continue calling this "special operation" instead of war).


To be fair, this is now getting really special. "We are invading Ukraine because we have so much boundary with them that they are dangerous and might invade, so 1. Piss them off, 2. Remove all our defense from the boundary, 3. Call them terrorists"
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
August 09 2024 10:18 GMT
#14068
On August 09 2024 19:04 0x64 wrote:
Now is the time where we would be extremely interested in A_CH's opinions. When the propaganda has no coherence formed yet.

Also reports of Youtube being blocked in Russia, is it still blocked?




More info on this.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42692 Posts
August 09 2024 10:31 GMT
#14069
Another relevant point is that this situation scuppers any chance of an imposed ceasefire on current lines.

After the failure to conquer Ukraine outright and the failure of subsequent attempts to destroy the economy and infrastructure of Ukraine it has been hard to see any realistic exit ramp for Putin. He hoped to simply conquer Ukraine militarily. Then he hoped to destroy the power and gas infrastructure and let winter destroy them. Then he hoped to destroy the export and economic infrastructure. Then he hoped to wear them down with attrition.

That has all failed and the pool of remaining resources for Russia is rapidly drying up. Cash reserves are depleted and the Russian government is now rotating payday loans at increasingly bad interest rates. Soviet legacy stocks are scraping the 1950s bottom of the barrel. Payments to volunteers are 10x what they were at the start of the war as the number of new people interested in dying in Ukraine fails to keep up with casualties.

There is now no real path to an outright Russian victory, only a freezing of the conflict which Putin could still somehow spin as a victory. If the lines cease to move, the minefields become denser, and the west loses interest then there was a chance of a world in which they keep what they’ve stolen. It’s undermined somewhat by the legal annexations of land they don’t actually occupy but they could quietly undo that. Russians are used to flexible truth, they’d be able to accept that Kherson is both constitutionally and an intrinsic part of Russia and remaining part of Ukraine in any ceasefire. But
Kursk would be trickier.

Selling Russians on the glorious victory of the new borders along the contact line doesn’t work as well anymore. A frozen conflict is no longer acceptable to Russian people and won’t be unless Russian territorial integrity is preserved. They’ll need to retake every inch of Kursk before playing for a frozen conflict which makes the path to any kind of Russian victory that much further away.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
August 09 2024 10:41 GMT
#14070
On August 09 2024 19:31 KwarK wrote:
Another relevant point is that this situation scuppers any chance of an imposed ceasefire on current lines.

After the failure to conquer Ukraine outright and the failure of subsequent attempts to destroy the economy and infrastructure of Ukraine it has been hard to see any realistic exit ramp for Putin. He hoped to simply conquer Ukraine militarily. Then he hoped to destroy the power and gas infrastructure and let winter destroy them. Then he hoped to destroy the export and economic infrastructure. Then he hoped to wear them down with attrition.

That has all failed and the pool of remaining resources for Russia is rapidly drying up. Cash reserves are depleted and the Russian government is now rotating payday loans at increasingly bad interest rates. Soviet legacy stocks are scraping the 1950s bottom of the barrel. Payments to volunteers are 10x what they were at the start of the war as the number of new people interested in dying in Ukraine fails to keep up with casualties.

There is now no real path to an outright Russian victory, only a freezing of the conflict which Putin could still somehow spin as a victory. If the lines cease to move, the minefields become denser, and the west loses interest then there was a chance of a world in which they keep what they’ve stolen. It’s undermined somewhat by the legal annexations of land they don’t actually occupy but they could quietly undo that. Russians are used to flexible truth, they’d be able to accept that Kherson is both constitutionally and an intrinsic part of Russia and remaining part of Ukraine in any ceasefire. But
Kursk would be trickier.

Selling Russians on the glorious victory of the new borders along the contact line doesn’t work as well anymore. A frozen conflict is no longer acceptable to Russian people and won’t be unless Russian territorial integrity is preserved. They’ll need to retake every inch of Kursk before playing for a frozen conflict which makes the path to any kind of Russian victory that much further away.


Kursk is significant for many reasons if Ukrainians can take this area. Not only is it a big railway hub you also have a nuclear power plant nearby and gas control station that they already control and which can be used to shut off natural gas flow from Russia into Europe. This last one can be a pretty major trump card when negotiating with either side.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
a_ch
Profile Joined September 2022
Russian Federation240 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-08-09 10:45:31
August 09 2024 10:42 GMT
#14071
On August 09 2024 19:04 0x64 wrote:
Now is the time where we would be extremely interested in A_CH's opinions. When the propaganda has no coherence formed yet.

Also reports of Youtube being blocked in Russia, is it still blocked?


-a significant local success of AFU; agree with the guys saying that this is an attemp to escape attrition-style warfare (except for the usual idiocy about inefficiency and meat waves etc). Will see where this gets, since for now the Ukrainian forces are mostly running not far from the borders in small groups.
If their goal is to change the style of actions, then the key would be the kill/loss ratio, which is not very clear for now (for example, there are unconfirmed claims that gens. Drapatiy and Gnatov have been killed in a rocket strike). If they plan to to fortify and hold the territories - then they'll need to at least take Sudzha, since the other territories are mostly lowlands which would be difficult to defend.

-on the Youtube case - don't know; for me it currently works fine with one internet provider, and doesn't with the second; and there's always a VPN option.
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2620 Posts
August 09 2024 11:34 GMT
#14072
Really hard to know what's happening but I think if they want to stay they need to take, clear and entrench all of Sudza and surrounding area. Just looking at a map it seems pretty easy to defend from the north.

If they haven't taken the full town soon and Russia can get reinforcements to it I think it might be tougher.
waaaaaaaaaaaooooow - Felicia, SPF2:T
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11841 Posts
August 09 2024 11:59 GMT
#14073
The question is if they even want to stay? It would be hard to rotate troops and tie up a lot of Ukrainian troops. Might be better to keep pushing until Russia gets enough troops there to start pushing back and just go back. Regroup and then hit another spot 300km away in 2-3 months. Keep doing that to spread Russian forces and show it needs to keep troops there.

Downside with that strategy is that you now have more Russian troops at that border, making the warning of a potential Russian offensive shorter.
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2620 Posts
August 09 2024 12:12 GMT
#14074
If you can consolidate a good position like Sudza it's not that far from the border. Rotate out offensive units like the 82nd airmobile. Sure it devolves into a new front and eventually Russia will take it back if they want it enough.
But that will take time and effort and they probably have to level the entire town.
Plus you don't care as much if you give up territory to save men because it's not your land.

And also if you don't take it the exact same thing will happen but in Ukraine instead.

However if you can't consolidate a good defence and it looks like you have grinding city figthing coming sure just pull back and leave. No reason to stay if the fight is not advantageous.
waaaaaaaaaaaooooow - Felicia, SPF2:T
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13933 Posts
August 09 2024 14:47 GMT
#14075
More valuable than any land taken is the propaganda victory to the people in Russia. The long long lines of people evacuating in the rumor of a Ukrainian breakthrough isn't something putin could hold off addressing for a day. Those people who left are right now spreading the word of the Ukrainian armys assult in every gas station hotel parking lot store train station.

How do you spin that as a strongman? If you start saying the Ukrainians are committing war crimes then how are you protecting them from this? If you pushed them back so fast why are these people still here and not able to go back?

If Ukrainian forces get near the kursk nuclear power plant how can you respond? Best case Ukrainian engineers scram the plant by engaging safety measures cutting off power for a lot of people before leaving.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
kornetka
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Poland129 Posts
August 09 2024 15:53 GMT
#14076
On August 09 2024 19:04 0x64 wrote:
Now is the time where we would be extremely interested in A_CH's opinions. When the propaganda has no coherence formed yet.

Also reports of Youtube being blocked in Russia, is it still blocked?

TBH I would be much more interested in Ardias's take on it, but I don't think he posts much recently.
broodwar for ever
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15689 Posts
August 09 2024 18:10 GMT
#14077
On August 09 2024 23:47 Sermokala wrote:
More valuable than any land taken is the propaganda victory to the people in Russia. The long long lines of people evacuating in the rumor of a Ukrainian breakthrough isn't something putin could hold off addressing for a day. Those people who left are right now spreading the word of the Ukrainian armys assult in every gas station hotel parking lot store train station.

How do you spin that as a strongman? If you start saying the Ukrainians are committing war crimes then how are you protecting them from this? If you pushed them back so fast why are these people still here and not able to go back?

If Ukrainian forces get near the kursk nuclear power plant how can you respond? Best case Ukrainian engineers scram the plant by engaging safety measures cutting off power for a lot of people before leaving.


It is interesting because it highlights how dictators like Putin are extremely vulnerable to unexpected disaster. When the messaging is so distorted and exclusively positive, an event like this is probably much worse.

Imagine if Ukraine can hold on to this long enough for Joe Shmoe to realize Russia did not succeed in recapturing a land.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
August 09 2024 19:02 GMT
#14078
On August 09 2024 19:42 a_ch wrote:
If they plan to to fortify and hold the territories - then they'll need to at least take Sudzha, since the other territories are mostly lowlands which would be difficult to defend.


The reports are stating that Sudzha is fully under Ukrainian control now and they're closing in on the nuclear power plant.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-08-10 02:15:52
August 10 2024 01:24 GMT
#14079
It seems that Russians have tried their luck in the Bakhmut direction (again with the meat wave tactics):


Here, in a bold move, Russian forces launched a massive wave of attacks on Chasiv Yar's northern flank, aiming to cross the canal and establish a critical bridgehead. Despite their relentless efforts and heavy use of mechanized infantry, the operation faced fierce Ukrainian resistance, leading to a decisive confrontation.

With such intense, yet casualty-heavy operations, the Russian command achieved limited success in accumulating forces at Zhovtnevyi district. The Russian survival rate throughout the operation was low because there were three to four survivors from a dismounted squad of eight carried by a BMP during the assault. Ukrainian fighters reported that they did not have enough time to locate and destroy surviving Russian fighters from the first BMP assault because Russians kept sending one squad after another with less than 60 minutes between the attacks. The surviving three to four stormtroopers of each assault unit would thus gradually accumulate for further assaults to expand the bridgehead.

This tactic worked for as long as the Russians had reserves to deploy for reinforcements and replacement of losses. However, as the Russian command soon ran out of additional troops and equipment to deploy, the intensity of the assault gradually decreased, leading to its halt. This situation gave the Ukrainian fighters time to locate and destroy the isolated Russian survivors of the assaults...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
August 10 2024 12:46 GMT
#14080
Ukrainians have now also crossed into the Belogrod region.

https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1822178777297777143?t=fBmpinATtLI0QVUmSM5l8w&s=19
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
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