EPTOn July 31 2024 16:36 KwarK wrote:
It is an unprovoked war of aggression.
It is an unprovoked war of aggression.
Obviously so. Claiming it's not is "kindergarden level dumb shit".
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 701
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
Obviously so. Claiming it's not is "kindergarden level dumb shit". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23799 Posts
On July 31 2024 17:04 a_ch wrote: -all you need - is to create a local version of reality, where all of his peers adore veggies. Thats basically the same what has been done to you You seem to have a remarkable ability to just discount very cogent and logically sound counter-points to your own assertions, have you considered your overarching framework may be wrong? For example German policy shifts. A country that was perfectly happy to reach out to Russia, intimately link their energy logistics with, even had a term for this process which I can’t remember but being German was probably a 6 syllable compound term. If Russia had not dicked around to such a preposterous, self-sabotaging degree in the past, Germany would have been perfectly happy to continue that process. Russia could have just been another regular European/Eurasian country, it absolutely could have. It’s not some unique special snowflake that everybody innately, unjustly hates. It’s a great pity it did not choose a path towards normalisation, not just for the peoples of an Ukraine but for Russians as well. | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On July 31 2024 17:28 WombaT wrote: You seem to have a remarkable ability to just discount very cogent and logically sound counter-points to your own assertions, have you considered your overarching framework may be wrong? For example German policy shifts. A country that was perfectly happy to reach out to Russia, intimately link their energy logistics with, even had a term for this process which I can’t remember but being German was probably a 6 syllable compound term. If Russia had not dicked around to such a preposterous, self-sabotaging degree in the past, Germany would have been perfectly happy to continue that process. Russia could have just been another regular European/Eurasian country, it absolutely could have. It’s not some unique special snowflake that everybody innately, unjustly hates. It’s a great pity it did not choose a path towards normalisation, not just for the peoples of an Ukraine but for Russians as well. >>Russia could have just been another regular European/Eurasian country, it absolutely could have. It’s not some unique special snowflake that everybody innately, unjustly hates. -this is very far from my view. I have familiy members in Germany and in Israel and often travel there; also several good friends in the UK, some of them moved there recently. I know that even now the attitude towards Russians is good in 99% of the cases. The problematic part is not in the relations of ordinary people, but in the relations of the elites, - and a major part of the US and UK elites has been confrontational towards Russia all the way along. >>For example German policy shifts. A country that was perfectly happy to reach out to Russia, intimately link their energy logistics with, even had a term for this process which I can’t remember but being German was probably a 6 syllable compound term. -I wrote about my guess at the reasons for the German policy shift just recently; basically they switched under US pressure (sabotage of Nord Stream a part of it), and expectations of Ukraine victory in early 2022. >>It’s a great pity it did not choose a path towards normalisation, not just for the peoples of an Ukraine but for Russians as well -I agree; I've also put my opinion here in 2022, that the best way of actions was to immediately stop the hostilities at the existing front line, and continue with negotiations, voting etc. It looks like this was a viable option during the Istanbul talks (actually, the terms have been much more favourable), which has been botched in the end by the Ukrainian side. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21354 Posts
The time for normalisation of relations with Russia was before they started an open war of aggression. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11326 Posts
On July 31 2024 18:40 Gorsameth wrote: Its beyond bat shit insane that you talk about normalisation after Russia started an open war of aggression, and all Ukraine had to do was surrender part of their country and pray to god Russia doesn't invade in a few years time to claim the rest. The time for normalisation of relations with Russia was before they started an open war of aggression. Yeah, that is kinda funny. The time for normalization would have been before there was a war, before there was a front line. Just don't invade, and you don't even have to talk. Russia wanted to "talk" and "normalize" once their invasion stopped working. Even now, their offer is basically "surrender, give up all leverage you have, and we can have an armistice and start talking". That is not a fair position if you want to talk. But i guess the actual goal is that a_ch and his colleagues do their job well and demolish western morale. And, as a German, i want to emphasize: Germany would have been very, very happy to continue buying cheap natural gas and oil from Russia. Germany was so happy with it that they build Nordstream 2 despite the resistance of many of our allies. The thing that stopped that was the invasion of Ukraine. It lead to a lot of problems here trying to find an alternative energy source. If Russia wanted normalized relations with the west, the way towards that would have been extremely easy. Ideally, don't invade Crimea. But afterwards, don't invade the rest of Ukraine in 2022. Then, don't threaten your neighbours constantly. Instead, trade. The path was very open. Russia chose the other path. No one forced them into it, not Nato, not the US. | ||
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0x64
Finland4519 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5432 Posts
On July 31 2024 17:56 a_ch wrote:-this is very far from my view. I have familiy members in Germany and in Israel and often travel there; also several good friends in the UK, some of them moved there recently. I know that even now the attitude towards Russians is good in 99% of the cases. The problematic part is not in the relations of ordinary people, but in the relations of the elites, - and a major part of the US and UK elites has been confrontational towards Russia all the way along. It's a deceptive impression. It comes down to two reasons. 1) Selection bias. Russians who move to the West tend to be a bit more liberal and less brainwashed. And 2), most Westerners are simply unaware of how deranged and deplorable the views of an average Russian are. In everyday life, people don't talk about things like WW2, soviet repressions or Russian politics. But if they do venture to ask their Russian friend/colleague about their views on the USSR's role in WW2, Stalinist terror campaign, Russian colonialism, Soviet/Russian invasions or Putin, they realize they're dealing with an imperialist shitstain. They think it's an exception to the rule, without realizing that decent Russians are the exception. | ||
Falling
Canada11272 Posts
- The start of the war has been a shock for many people (me included). The key here is - such people were generally not very involved in politic matters, and thus are prone to media manipulations. To see the effect of it, you may compare the recation to the war start in the 'western influence' countries, and in the rest of the world. The latter had been moderately negative at first, and neutral or pro-Russian currently - exactly because of the lack of pro-western propaganda in the main media sources, which results in gradual understanding of the conflict reasons and timeline. This explanation fails to filter out simple spatial/ geographic bias, nor explain the switch pre and post. Was American propaganda absent/ incompetent pre-2022 and then suddenly introduced after/ suddenly became efficacious and convinced everyone at that point? If not, then why was Europe integrating and welcoming Russia in pre-2022 regardless of what America thought of the matter and then suddenly switched? It wasn't a sudden introduction of American propaganda (whatever that might be-still ill-defined). Nor was it a sudden change in tenor that made it efficacious post-2022 and largely a failure pre-2022. What changed? Might it be Russian action rather than American speech? Then for the spatial/geographic bias. Naturally, Europe and especially the border states around Russia are going to feel very strongly about an invasion in their backyard. Whereas, after the initial launch, I imagine Ethiopia goes back to being concerned about instability in Sudan. Not to mention certain African regimes are being propped up by Russian Wagner Mercenaries... which just might change a state's political stance when Russian boots on the ground is supporting you... Whereas, Poland. Poland does NOT need America to convince them of anything. Russia had close to fifty years to convince Poland of its good intentions. And as soon as Poland had a chance, they fled, skedaddled, moved post haste away from Russian influence. Again, the states that have had the least amount of time to subsume to American propaganda (whatever that might be) have been the most anti-Russian. Fear of Russia animates them and the war in Ukraine demonstrates that this fear is well-founded, far more than any talking head in the US might say. (Does Europe, especially Eastern Europe even listen to American media on the regular?) And again with your own low level claim that we are being 'kindergarten level'. Why? If I were to describe Hitler's invasion of Russia an 'unprovoked war of aggression' would you also describe that as 'kindergarten level.' Yes, we can dig into the weeds of Hitler's lebensbraum ideology as to what motivated his actions. But considering Stalin was doing very little against the Nazi regime that doesn't change the broad assessment that Hitler's invasion was an 'unprovoked war of aggression.' So to with Ukraine. In 2008 Merkel and Sarkozy have been strongly against NATO expansion to Ukraine and Georgia Truuee. And now post 2022, suddenly we are letting in Finland and Sweden, right on Russia's doorstep. What could have changed? Was it American speech... or maybe. Just maybe. It was Russian action. Russia invaded and suddenly everyone realized, oh. Russia cannot be trusted. Either you are in NATO and safe or you are out in the cold with fingers crossed that Russia's green men don't arrive in your country to overthrow your government. This example of yours only goes to further our own position, not yours. By the way, there is a little short cut button, that if you highlight a piece of text, then hit the " button (between the [s] and the puzzle piece buttons), it will box the quotation, making your posts eminently more readable than >> and us trying to figure out where your actual commentary is. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5432 Posts
On August 01 2024 03:08 Falling wrote:By the way, there is a little short cut button, that if you highlight a piece of text, then hit the " button (between the [s] and the puzzle piece buttons), it will box the quotation, making your posts eminently more readable than >> and us trying to figure out where your actual commentary is. That's what stupid peasants do, not big brain intellectuals. ;-) User was warned for this post | ||
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KwarK
United States41979 Posts
On August 01 2024 03:08 Falling wrote: And again with your own low level claim that we are being 'kindergarten level'. Why? If I were to describe Hitler's invasion... You’re misunderstanding a key component of the Russian worldview here. Remember that Russia allied with Hitler and agreed to carve up Eastern Europe between them. Russia started WW2 on the fascist side, they invaded Poland unprovoked and shortly afterwards the rest of the Baltic states. Russians have never had any issue with any of that, they don’t have a problem with the things that Hitler did. They’re very in favour of those, they armed him, they joined with him, they supported him. Literally the only part they didn’t like was when it happened to them. They’re fine with carving up Poland, they’re not fine with carving up Russia. It’s not out of any opposition to carving places up, it’s because they’re Russia. The idea that you could get through to a Russian with this angle relies on an erroneous belief that Russians disagree with Hitler’s expansionist foreign policy. They don’t. They never have. After WW2 they refused to give up the territories they took as part of their alliance with Nazi Germany etc. Russia wasn’t defeated, they never lost their empire, they never had a chance to learn why it’s a bad thing to do. | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 01 2024 03:08 Falling wrote: This explanation fails to filter out simple spatial/ geographic bias, nor explain the switch pre and post. Was American propaganda absent/ incompetent pre-2022 and then suddenly introduced after/ suddenly became efficacious and convinced everyone at that point? If not, then why was Europe integrating and welcoming Russia in pre-2022 regardless of what America thought of the matter and then suddenly switched? It wasn't a sudden introduction of American propaganda (whatever that might be-still ill-defined). Nor was it a sudden change in tenor that made it efficacious post-2022 and largely a failure pre-2022. What changed? Might it be Russian action rather than American speech? Then for the spatial/geographic bias. Naturally, Europe and especially the border states around Russia are going to feel very strongly about an invasion in their backyard. Whereas, after the initial launch, I imagine Ethiopia goes back to being concerned about instability in Sudan. Not to mention certain African regimes are being propped up by Russian Wagner Mercenaries... which just might change a state's political stance when Russian boots on the ground is supporting you... Whereas, Poland. Poland does NOT need America to convince them of anything. Russia had close to fifty years to convince Poland of its good intentions. And as soon as Poland had a chance, they fled, skedaddled, moved post haste away from Russian influence. Again, the states that have had the least amount of time to subsume to American propaganda (whatever that might be) have been the most anti-Russian. Fear of Russia animates them and the war in Ukraine demonstrates that this fear is well-founded, far more than any talking head in the US might say. (Does Europe, especially Eastern Europe even listen to American media on the regular?) And again with your own low level claim that we are being 'kindergarten level'. Why? If I were to describe Hitler's invasion of Russia an 'unprovoked war of aggression' would you also describe that as 'kindergarten level.' Yes, we can dig into the weeds of Hitler's lebensbraum ideology as to what motivated his actions. But considering Stalin was doing very little against the Nazi regime that doesn't change the broad assessment that Hitler's invasion was an 'unprovoked war of aggression.' So to with Ukraine. Truuee. And now post 2022, suddenly we are letting in Finland and Sweden, right on Russia's doorstep. What could have changed? Was it American speech... or maybe. Just maybe. It was Russian action. Russia invaded and suddenly everyone realized, oh. Russia cannot be trusted. Either you are in NATO and safe or you are out in the cold with fingers crossed that Russia's green men don't arrive in your country to overthrow your government. This example of yours only goes to further our own position, not yours. By the way, there is a little short cut button, that if you highlight a piece of text, then hit the " button (between the [s] and the puzzle piece buttons), it will box the quotation, making your posts eminently more readable than >> and us trying to figure out where your actual commentary is. -geo bias: you mention a couple of African countries (which I wouldn't underestimate too in your place), while the reality is the larger part of the world is becoming more and more alienated to the West. This is institutionalized through BRICS, which already has twice the GDP PPP and population compared to the G7, and got about 30 new applications in 2024, all of the countries there are neutral or pro-Russian. Your theory fails to explain why most of the world dislikes you more than the country that has started the war. -Poland has a long history of rivalry with us, so if needed, one side can find a lot of reasons to hate the other. Regretfully, since Walesa's Solidarity (which btw is one of the clearest examples of a western-influenced NGO) coming to power in 1980s, the russophobia is institutionalized there. You can see an example of it in @maybenexttime neighboring post, where Russia looks like a cat's description in a mouse's book. And this guy claims to have a special education in the field. At the same time, there is a strong anti-war party there as well. You can get to these conclusions by seing lots of government actions aimed at promoting anti-Ukrainian sentiments in the society (a memorial to UPA victims in Volyn has been opened a couple days ago; lots of local conflicts on Ukrainian grain transit, and so on). -about Hitler - yes, of course; Hitler's methods didn't differ too much from what Americans did to natives, Belgians to Congolesians, British to Boeres and Indians a couple decades before, and big conflicts dont take place without a long gradual escalation. 'Unprovoked war of aggression' in this case fits only a Soviet or Western propaganda narrative to put all the blame on him, at the same time whitewashing themselves. In my opinion the lebensraum ideology is the core reason for Europe's countries to get involved in this war too. Its basic logics is - Europe has long been the most industrialized part of the world, and is the first to get most of its natural resources depleted. It would like to keep a colonial or neo-colonial scheme, where it gets cheap resources from abroad, and trades back goods with a high value added, - so basically imports a product of cheap labor and exports the product of capital - allowing high living standards for its citizens. The partial breakup of this scheme in 2022 is the reason for the sharp decline of Europe's economy, and the surge in Russia in these two years, and I believe this to be the reason for Macron's claims like this one https://www.yahoo.com/news/macron-russias-war-against-ukraine-214326808.html Basically, for Europe losing this this war is a path to poverty. -about the formatting: sorry for being not very clear. In part this is due to my belief that this overall discussion would not get any meaning result anyway, so I also don't want to get too much involved - just procrastinating here. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5432 Posts
On August 01 2024 06:56 a_ch wrote:-Poland has a long history of rivalry with us, so if needed, one side can find a lot of reasons to hate the other. The last time Poland did something to Russia was more than 400 years ago, when we conquered Moscow. In the last century, Russia/USSR invaded Poland twice, including doing so with Nazi Germany, exterminated 20% (>100k) of its ethnic Polish population in 1930s, sent over a million Poles to Siberia during WW2 (of which estimated 30% died within a year), installed a brutal dictatorship for 50 years which made us poor, invaded Ukraine, sending millions of refugees to our country, and is currently staging acts of sabotage in Poland and calling for Poland to be nuked as an example. And what has Poland done to Russia in recent time that Russians hate us for? Joined NATO after we were tired of getting butchered by Russian savages, and helped Ukraine militarily after Russia brutally invaded them. So kindly fuck off with your both sides nonsense. ;-) | ||
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KwarK
United States41979 Posts
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Ryzel
United States519 Posts
Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion. | ||
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Sadist
United States7173 Posts
a_ch are you acknowledging what Russia is doing in Ukraine is wrong? | ||
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KwarK
United States41979 Posts
On August 01 2024 22:50 Ryzel wrote: It’s difficult to parse, but it doesn’t seem like he’s defending Hitler more so than he’s saying Europe in general are the ones following lebensraum ideology because they lost their colonies 40 years ago and can’t exploit them anymore? Or something? Also, can you do me a favor KwarK and link your previous conversation with a_ch on the mechanics of how Russians are/are not mindfucked? That was an entertaining read and actually seems relevant to the discussion. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573 It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. | ||
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Husyelt
United States808 Posts
On August 02 2024 00:32 KwarK wrote: https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5573 It was remarkable. I assert that Russians can’t evaluate the truth of a claim, they can only deflect and say that others are doing it instead. He replies about Americans. Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 02 2024 12:20 Husyelt wrote: Russians are a proud people broken through a century plus of mostly by their own hands and leaders. I have chatted to a few people within Russia in the past few years and they have the same worldview. "life cant get better, but at least we arent the West". They've had to reset their entire belief system multiple times, "The Tsar is no longer our good father", "Communism is the truth of all things", "Oligarchy and Dictatorship is all we possibly could have". If Putin were to croak tomorrow, there would be no glorious revolution or an attempt to go to a liberal democracy, they would behave the same way as today. There's obviously people within Russia that want life to be better and have opposing views, but the majority of that country is embracing fascism with a shrug. It's a fatalist mindset thats conditioned into them. Truth is meaningless, because reality to them is falseness everywhere. thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
Russia now has no defined borders, let that sink in. Which Russian citizen would think that is a great idea? The region of Kherson is now part of the Federation Council, but the city of Kherson is under Ukrainian control. It just doesn't make any sense and it dismantles the image of Russia as having any noble intentions. edit: and add to that that the current conduct of attacks for Russia is to bomb any potential cover to dust and then attack with infantry, leaving any village or suburb in its path in total destruction. It's obviously a war for nothing else but territory. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23799 Posts
On August 02 2024 15:38 a_ch wrote: thanks, I laughed so hard. For those here, who don't believe in mass manipulations - just look at the previous ~5 posts. Instead of a critically responding to the argument, some grown-up people are flocking to hear an emotioinal encouragement like a wounded child would. What arguments are there to critically respond to? There’s clearly a problem with the collective Russian psyche that manifests in how the state behaves. If we go further West, you see similar issues, albeit that manifest differently. The UK is probably most prominent, France to a lesser degree clearly struggle with the ‘we used to rule the world’ and subsequent loss of that prestige in contemporary times. It was a huge factor bubbling under the surface of Brexit to take an obvious example from recent times. Or American attitudes to China are clearly very influenced by the 20th century’s preeminent power struggling to parse that there’s a new kid on the block. One could go on The issue is you can identify some of those quite clearly, you’ve clearly got a decent analytical lens, but one that gets thrown in the bin seemingly when it comes to your own country. | ||
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