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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 05:16 a_ch wrote:
I wouldn't say that Russian elections are particularly honest, rather the opposite imho; but the public PR-ing around this topic clearly also have their own agenda and cannot be trusted per se I love this post because you have succinctly expressed exactly what years of Soviet media have ingrained within your national psyche. Early on the Soviets tried to paint the USSR as providing greater wealth and freedoms to its people than the capitalist west. Between the purges and the poverty this party line became increasingly difficult to sell. Soviet citizens understood that their government was lying to them. And so there was a pivot, instead of trying to convince their people of lies they tried to destroy the idea of objective truth entirely. “Well of course our government is lying to us, all governments lie”. That way they could reconcile that they had less than the people in the west appeared to have without inferiority, the people in the west don’t actually have what the media shows they have. Our media may show us rich when we’re actually poor but everyone is actually poor so we’re no worse off. And as the final step you get a Soviet attitude of superiority, our media may lie to us but they know we know that they’re lying so that makes them more honest than the west where the people actually believe the media. Its a pretty well documented phenomenon and I think you demonstrated it beautifully. Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing.
If you have problems with understanding the posts logics in the thread, let me explain:
1. A guy says that a vote have to be crystal-clear to be trustable
2. Then there is a claim that Russian elections are not crystal-clear, so not trustable. And the proofs are Shpilkin's articles
3. I bring a post where a Moscow University mathematician discusses one of the articles and concludes that the article itself is manipulative and full of blunders
...
4. You come on a white horse and conclude (with some remarks about what our media shows to us - have you seen it, besides cherrypicking from TV?) that "idea of actual truth is missing in Russians".
Congratulations, you win the prize for the dumbest person I've met in a week (or may be more).
Just to finish this up, let me say, that after Feb 24 I've spent enormous time thinking on almost all of the possible questions about this war you could bring here - including whether we live in fascist dictatorship, media manipulations and who is whose spy, etc etc. - trying to understand how did we get there, and what should be done. So you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised).
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Russian Federation240 Posts
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Russian Federation240 Posts
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United States43203 Posts
On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised).
Stalin broke y’all.
I point out that you cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it.
You instantly respond with
do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised).
You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it.
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Russian Federation610 Posts
On October 13 2022 06:14 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
Fair enough. As far as I can tell, the context was legitimacy of the elections - how believable such high support is. I'm pretty sure he was interested in legitimate elections but I could be wrong. Because what's the point of using blatantly rigged elections to show that such results can happen in fair elections.
My guess is to understand the extent of rigging in elections and if there could be correlation between the result of election and actual public opinion. I mean, if every election could be rigged to show 80+% turnout and 90+% result, why would United Russia be on the brink of 50% every parliamentary election, with all the rigging and administrative resource on their side? Or our previous governor elections show only 20% of the turnout and a bit above 50% for the winner (he was often called "Governor-10-percent" here because of that)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governors_of_Arkhangelsk_Oblast
Different public polls seemed to also support the picture that Putin himself is much more popular than United Russia (probably that's why he left somewhere in mid-10s, since his party was giving him negative perception).
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@a_ch
Seriously, dude. There isn't a legitimate election where the votes for the party in power are highly correlated with voter turnout. It's not like we don't have plenty of video evidence of ballot stuffing either...
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On October 13 2022 06:05 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 05:59 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 05:47 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 04:45 Ardias wrote:
@Magic Powers - how did we come from comparing poverty rates in Russia and Ukraine to the assumption that there is no poor people in Russia? Did you not pay attention? The Russian people are much poorer than people in other countries. It's more than just a huge wealth gap, it's about people having to make a choice between food - not just healthy food, but any food - on the table or the dentist's bill. It's about people having to live with rats biting their feet at night. Such living standards are exceedingly rare in countries like the US, but in Russia you can find it in many places. Dentist bill is free in Russia, though it may not be top-tier quality (had 5 of my teeth fixed that way few years ago, so I know what I'm talking about). Public medicine. If you want top-tier - then you pay the bill. Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit. Though we have enough alcoholics, junkies, or, sadly, elderly and/or mentally disabled people without support who could lead to sanitary fuckup, that's true, as well as a bunch of cases of negligence by responsible authorities, though latter could often be resolved via court or public attention if people actually do try. Though from personal experience I do know that a lot of people here (in Russia, I mean) like to complain and do nothing, not even participate in annual apartment owner meetings where they could actually solve their problems. And no, discussion started from the point that Russian people are much poorer than Ukraininan ones and Putin's war goal was to make Ukrainians as poor as Russians. You were bringing 12,1% poverty rate for Russia and 2,5% for Ukraine, to which I pointed out that you take percentages from differen measurement points, like comparing feets to meters. You then simply started to stay that "Russians are very poor", abandoning the Ukraine point completely. But to answer your latest big post - yes, there are quite a lot of Russian that are poor. Yet there are public stuff to ease it up (inheritance of damn communists with their free public education and medicine). No, the statistics doesn't give clear persperctive, because you seemed to entirely miss what I told about gray economy in Russia, and how it applies to Ukraine (probably even more, since they have less strict tax control). On October 13 2022 05:15 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
He asked how many legitimate elections in Russia had such high support for Putin. You gave him examples of blatantly rigged elections. Where did he said anything about "legitimate" elections? His quote, I don't see the word "legitimate" anywhere: "How many of the Russian held votes in the last 10 years have been over 90%? From these referendums to anything directly involving Putin and his power?" "Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit." Ok, please tell me why I should argue with someone who is that ignorant of how poverty works? "Just care a bit"? Please give me the slightest incentive to take you seriously. Because I actually live here, because my grandmother and aunt live on their pensions in the wooden Soviet barrack in suburbs or Arkhangelsk, because my wife comes from remote village 400km from the city in the middle of nowhere, and my father-in-law and mother-in-law still live there. So I can clearly see when people talk about actual poverty issues, especially in Russia, and when they clearly don't know what they are talking about, to put it very mildly. Not knowing that dental care is free and available to everyone in Russia says a lot about your actual knowledge. You may google what "Obligatory Medical Insurance" in Russia is, for the start.
I mentioned dental care when I illustrated the financial dilemma people face, not because specifically dental care is what Russian people can't afford. And no, health care is not "free", people have to pay for it, including in Russia. If people need medicine that isn't fully covered, they have to pay for it from their own pockets. This is the same thing they do in other countries with "basic healthcare"; but the standard is not the same everywhere, and it's not provided to all people equally. If you live in bumfuck nowhere in Russia, you strictly cannot get the same treatment options, and this is how the Russian leaders make sure that not too much money is spent from their own pockets to the poorest - they simply neglect them in more indirect ways, like not building their infrastructure or not making sure they get provided the same options that are promised to those living in more affluent areas. Do you understand this?
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On October 13 2022 06:27 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:14 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
Fair enough. As far as I can tell, the context was legitimacy of the elections - how believable such high support is. I'm pretty sure he was interested in legitimate elections but I could be wrong. Because what's the point of using blatantly rigged elections to show that such results can happen in fair elections. My guess is to understand the extent of rigging in elections and if there could be correlation between the result of election and actual public opinion. I mean, if every election could be rigged to show 80+% turnout and 90+% result, why would United Russia be on the brink of 50% every parliamentary election, with all the rigging and administrative resource on their side? Or our previous governor elections show only 20% of the turnout and a bit above 50% for the winner (he was often called "Governor-10-percent" here because of that)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governors_of_Arkhangelsk_OblastDifferent public polls seemed to also support the picture that Putin himself is much more popular than United Russia (probably that's why he left somewhere in mid-10s, since his party was giving him negative perception).
And my way of dealing with this would be to not try to gain any legitimate information from a rigged election, except maybe information about the rigging.
A rigged election should be treated as if no election has happened. Anything else gives it legitimacy it does not deserve.
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United States43203 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [old posts of mine] +On August 14 2008 13:13 KwarK wrote:
One interesting thing to think about is whether modern Russia is a fascist state. Fascism has always been tricky to describe. However I'll attempt to describe it as a popular nationalist movement, created by poor economic conditions and a sudden loss of national power and prestige, materialised in a charismatic leader willing to engage in aggressive rhetoric with the wider world while using his popularity to override democratic safeguards and consolidate his position as a Fuhrer and resulting in outward expansion as the rhetoric snowballs and the nationalistic fire that is his support needs more fuel to keep it burning. Centralisation of power, direct central appointment of previously democratic positions, taking over the media and removing constitutional blocks on central power. Putin’s Russia has all of these. It's definitely an interesting line of thought. On May 20 2017 02:16 KwarK wrote:
Dislike of Putin and his regime is entirely natural. We talk a lot about fascism but Putin's Russia has long been a textbook example of what we need to be afraid of. It's ethno-nationalism with an obsession of unifying around a strong leader who can lead and represent the collective idea of the people and reclaim the historical birthright of glory that was denied by the weak/effete liberals who led the nation to ruin.
Not enough is made of the specific philosophical and historical notes that come with fascism, despite the word being an Italian reference to the Roman fasces. It's not just totalitarianism, 1984 was totalitarian but it wasn't fascist. Fascists believe that the people and therefore the nation have a birthright, proven through their historical glory (Rome for Mussolini, Frederick the Great for Hitler, the victories of the Soviet Union for Putin) which was denied by the weak men who followed them (November Traitors, everyone in Russia in the 1990s). The people must unify behind the chosen one who personifies the idea of the people and let him lead them back to their destiny.
It's part of the reason that /r/the_donald are traditional fascists. It's not just about absolute rule for them, it's about reclaiming the glorious past through a purge of the weak elites by the brownshirts in the name of their glorious leader. I'm not saying that Trump specifically encourages that sort of fascism but the American fascists have absolutely made him their icon.
Anyway, to bring it back to the point, if you want to know what modern fascism looks like then Putin is your man. It doesn't have to be totalitarian, although he's certainly working on that in Russia, but it does have to have elements of recovering national pride and glory from a shameful past.
Russia is an ideological enemy of the United States because Russia is fascist and a fascist Russia simply cannot exist without starting shit with the former Soviet satellites. It's a self justifying ideology, the leader is empowered by the need for national pride and every achievement, from remilitarizing the Rhineland to annexing the Crimea, further empowers the leader. Stagnation is not possible, Putin can no more stop at Crimea than Hitler could at Austria, and that is a problem.
Sorry to bring us back to the whole fascism thing but Russophobia making a comeback is actually a good thing. We're right to be worried about Putin's Russia. It'd be great if we could be friends with them but we also cannot ignore the nature of what we're dealing with.
Fascism and totalitarianism often overlap but they're not synonymous. For example North Korea isn't fascist, it doesn't look backwards and seek vengeance against the criminals who corrupted the glorious legacy of X, it looks forwards to the glorious future in the worker's paradise. Still shit, but not the same kind of shit. Same with Saddam.
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Russian Federation610 Posts
On October 13 2022 06:30 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:05 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:59 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 05:47 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 04:45 Ardias wrote:
@Magic Powers - how did we come from comparing poverty rates in Russia and Ukraine to the assumption that there is no poor people in Russia? Did you not pay attention? The Russian people are much poorer than people in other countries. It's more than just a huge wealth gap, it's about people having to make a choice between food - not just healthy food, but any food - on the table or the dentist's bill. It's about people having to live with rats biting their feet at night. Such living standards are exceedingly rare in countries like the US, but in Russia you can find it in many places. Dentist bill is free in Russia, though it may not be top-tier quality (had 5 of my teeth fixed that way few years ago, so I know what I'm talking about). Public medicine. If you want top-tier - then you pay the bill. Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit. Though we have enough alcoholics, junkies, or, sadly, elderly and/or mentally disabled people without support who could lead to sanitary fuckup, that's true, as well as a bunch of cases of negligence by responsible authorities, though latter could often be resolved via court or public attention if people actually do try. Though from personal experience I do know that a lot of people here (in Russia, I mean) like to complain and do nothing, not even participate in annual apartment owner meetings where they could actually solve their problems. And no, discussion started from the point that Russian people are much poorer than Ukraininan ones and Putin's war goal was to make Ukrainians as poor as Russians. You were bringing 12,1% poverty rate for Russia and 2,5% for Ukraine, to which I pointed out that you take percentages from differen measurement points, like comparing feets to meters. You then simply started to stay that "Russians are very poor", abandoning the Ukraine point completely. But to answer your latest big post - yes, there are quite a lot of Russian that are poor. Yet there are public stuff to ease it up (inheritance of damn communists with their free public education and medicine). No, the statistics doesn't give clear persperctive, because you seemed to entirely miss what I told about gray economy in Russia, and how it applies to Ukraine (probably even more, since they have less strict tax control). On October 13 2022 05:15 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
He asked how many legitimate elections in Russia had such high support for Putin. You gave him examples of blatantly rigged elections. Where did he said anything about "legitimate" elections? His quote, I don't see the word "legitimate" anywhere: "How many of the Russian held votes in the last 10 years have been over 90%? From these referendums to anything directly involving Putin and his power?" "Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit." Ok, please tell me why I should argue with someone who is that ignorant of how poverty works? "Just care a bit"? Please give me the slightest incentive to take you seriously. Because I actually live here, because my grandmother and aunt live on their pensions in the wooden Soviet barrack in suburbs or Arkhangelsk, because my wife comes from remote village 400km from the city in the middle of nowhere, and my father-in-law and mother-in-law still live there. So I can clearly see when people talk about actual poverty issues, especially in Russia, and when they clearly don't know what they are talking about, to put it very mildly. Not knowing that dental care is free and available to everyone in Russia says a lot about your actual knowledge. You may google what "Obligatory Medical Insurance" in Russia is, for the start. I mentioned dental care when I illustrated the financial dilemma people face, not because specifically dental care is what Russian people can't afford. And no, health care is not "free", people have to pay for it, including in Russia. If people need medicine that isn't fully covered, they have to pay for it from their own pockets. This is the same thing they do in other countries with "basic healthcare"; but the standard is not the same everywhere, and it's not provided to all people equally. If you live in bumfuck nowhere in Russia, you strictly cannot get the same treatment options, and this is how the Russian leaders make sure that not too much money is spent from their own pockets to the poorest - they simply neglect them in more indirect ways, like not building their infrastructure or not making sure they get provided the same options that are promised to those living in more affluent areas. Do you understand this?
Well, now we get to more reasonable discussion. It's kinda offtopic, so I'll move my reply under spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +About the medicine - yes, you are correct, generally you do pay for it from your pocket. If it's a recommendation, and not a direct prescription (you won't buy some stuff without it, same as in other countries I believe), you can often get cheaper variants, because doctors often write a bit more effective and safe imported option, but 5x-10x times more expensive, and pharmacies are much more eager to sell expensive medicine, rather than cheap Russian generics with the same effect.
Of course there are cases with rare illness where you need particular operation or medication, and yes, for the poorer part of people if often becomes unaffordable, here I agree. But from most common diseases you are able to get a treatment, even if you are broke as a joke.
Now to infrastructure - somebody couple of pages ago said "Russia is so big, why it isn't prosperous". Well, partially it's the reason. I see you live in Austria. It's 84k km2 in size with 9 million population. And it's 7 times less in size while having 8 times larger population than only my region of Russia. How do you propose providing equal medical care to every person here, especially in remote rural areas?
To give you an example - we have a cancer treatment center here. It's large, has a lot of nice stuff, they effectively treat a lot of patients (know that because my mother is one of them) - but you can't build center like this in every sub-region of our oblast. So yeah, people simply have to drive 400-500 km to treat their cancer. And such issue is unresolvable if the population is dispersed through the country.
On the matter I would ask people from US how healthcare for stuff like cancer works in remote small cities in Montana, Wyoming or Arizona, for example.
On October 13 2022 06:30 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:27 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 06:14 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
Fair enough. As far as I can tell, the context was legitimacy of the elections - how believable such high support is. I'm pretty sure he was interested in legitimate elections but I could be wrong. Because what's the point of using blatantly rigged elections to show that such results can happen in fair elections. My guess is to understand the extent of rigging in elections and if there could be correlation between the result of election and actual public opinion. I mean, if every election could be rigged to show 80+% turnout and 90+% result, why would United Russia be on the brink of 50% every parliamentary election, with all the rigging and administrative resource on their side? Or our previous governor elections show only 20% of the turnout and a bit above 50% for the winner (he was often called "Governor-10-percent" here because of that)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governors_of_Arkhangelsk_OblastDifferent public polls seemed to also support the picture that Putin himself is much more popular than United Russia (probably that's why he left somewhere in mid-10s, since his party was giving him negative perception). And my way of dealing with this would be to not try to gain any legitimate information from a rigged election, except maybe information about the rigging. A rigged election should be treated as if no election has happened. Anything else gives it legitimacy it does not deserve.
Not trying to understand the realities of the country you are discussing may lead to beliefs like "only checkists and oligarchs from Russia could afford visit to Europe". Though it's your right to do so, of course.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 06:28 maybenexttime wrote:
@a_ch
Seriously, dude. There isn't a legitimate election where the votes for the party in power are highly correlated with voter turnout. It's not like we don't have plenty of video evidence of ballot stuffing either...
I've said - I believe that elections in Russia are flawed to say the least. And I'm very incontent with many people at power here.
But to prove electional manipulations with an academic manipulation is just a bit lame. Especially since I've worked in empirical research, and know how easy it is to create an article that fits actual data into a narrative, not vice-versa
The example that you bring is a case of heteroskedasticity in data, which actually is omnipresent when you work with empirics.
It takes just seconds to come up with an explanation of the effect:
1. People in the largest cities of Russia are the most western-oriented, and usually are the most incontent with the ruling party.
2. The turnout in the large cities is also usually not-so-high, as it is common among the anti-government people to think like "I don't want to vote, they'd just scam my vote anyway", and generally people there tend to appreciate their time more, so less eager to go the voting sites
3. It works the other way in smaller cities, many of which are financially dependent on the electional result - and their governors often convey this message to population to increase the turnout
The model with a positive correlation between turnout and United Russia cross-sectional vote shares complete
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with Show nested quote +do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it.
This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe?
(Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here)
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United States43203 Posts
On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides.
He really cannot see himself deflecting here rather than acknowledging his own prior deflections. Obviously it’s not something genetic, I specifically said Stalin broke something in Russian culture and that this was a learned behavior that Russians pick up from being raised in a society without a concept of truth. But he’s actually physically unable to talk about it. Whenever he tries to talk about how Russians don’t have a concept of truth his brain just falls apart and his fingers type “actually both sides".
The amazing thing is that literally all he would have needed to do to refute the claim that Russians don't have a concept of truth is say "no, we do have one". That answer would have implicitly recognized that an assertion could be evaluated and judged one way or the other. It would have been somewhat paradoxical but "I agree, we don't have a concept of truth" would have also shown a concept of truth. But Russians can't do that, they can't evaluate claims, all they can do is dismiss the idea of X while simultaneously insisting someone else is actually guilty of X.
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On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here)
Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean.
They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even.
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United States43203 Posts
On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even.
Russians, note the way that the American responds to the assertion that Americans descend from criminals exiled to a penal colony by disagreeing with the assertion and providing arguments in support of their disagreement. Note that the way that the American does this without denying the existence of criminals and without claiming that it's actually some other people that are descended from criminals.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even.
Oh you didn't like that? And is that ok when your countryman writes racist bullshit here?
Btw, I'm interested, how a single person can be a "fascist"? Is that not something related to social order, or "fascist" is a curse word you learnt from some propaganda video on Youtube?
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On October 13 2022 08:28 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even. Oh you didn't like that? And is that ok when your countryman writes racist bullshit here? Btw, I'm interested, how a single person can be a "fascist"? Is that not something related to social order, or "fascist" is a curse word you learnt from some propaganda video on Youtube?
1. Kwark isn't from the US, he merely lives here.
2. Kwark wasn't being racist. Reading comprehension is hard though, I know.
3. Even if he was, Sermokala didn't put their stamp of approval on what Kwark said so don't be all uppity when they call you out like they're being a hypocrite or contradicting themself.
4. People who follow fascist ideology are fascists, just as people who follow communist ideology are communists. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
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United States43203 Posts
On October 13 2022 08:28 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even. Oh you didn't like that? And is that ok when your countryman writes racist bullshit here? Btw, I'm interested, how a single person can be a "fascist"? Is that not something related to social order, or "fascist" is a curse word you learnt from some propaganda video on Youtube?
Note the way that the Russian doesn’t claim not to be a fascist, he instead claims that the concept of a person being fascist is meaningless and therefore it cannot be true or false. Rather than address the question he undermines the question and deflects by accusing the asker of having been influenced by YouTube propaganda.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 08:39 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 08:28 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even. Oh you didn't like that? And is that ok when your countryman writes racist bullshit here? Btw, I'm interested, how a single person can be a "fascist"? Is that not something related to social order, or "fascist" is a curse word you learnt from some propaganda video on Youtube? 1. Kwark isn't from the US, he merely lives here. 2. Kwark wasn't being racist. Reading comprehension is hard though, I know. 3. Even if he was, Sermokala didn't put their stamp of approval on what Kwark said so don't be all uppity when they call you out like they're being a hypocrite or contradicting themself. 4. People who follow fascist ideology are fascists, just as people who follow communist ideology are communists. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
1. -ok, didn't know.
2. It was. Claims like "russians have no concept of truth" or "Stalin broke the culture" (meaning it is some kind of a persistent effect) are 146% racist gems worthy of Hitler himself.
3. in my offensive post I wrote that this is not how I truly think of Americans, just an example of a racist bs. Its interesting though, how you and Sermokala reacted. Did you even read the post till the end?
4. To follow a fascist ideology you have at least to be a nazi and to follow a rule of a dictator. At least the first quality is not met in the case of Russian society. And seeing how eager you are at blaming Russians in all sins, you're much closer to that title.
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United States43203 Posts
On October 13 2022 09:08 a_ch wrote:
Seeing how eager you are at blaming Russians in all sins, you're much closer to that title.
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EPT
