Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 417
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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
SC-Shield
Bulgaria810 Posts
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r00ty
Germany1039 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mikau313
Netherlands229 Posts
On April 13 2023 00:54 Magic Powers wrote: Your whole argument with me is a non sequitur, in case you didn't catch that. I initially responded to Mohdoo, not to you or anyone else. Do you understand better now? Do you need somebody to explain the nature of discussion on a public forum to you? If you don't want other people to call out your logical fallacies and bad-faith discussion you can either a) not make those arguments or b) discuss in PM. | ||
pmp10
3248 Posts
Unfortunately it seems we are heading far more in the direction of a forever-war than a frozen one. With Europe slowly running out of weaponry and US heading for an election this is not a good news for Ukraine. | ||
sertas
Sweden879 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21390 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4693 Posts
As we get new stuff we will continue to supply Ukraine. Will it be enough? Lets hope so. | ||
Magic Powers
Austria3709 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17203 Posts
On April 13 2023 19:42 Magic Powers wrote: Without a doubt Europe is running out of ammo. But so is Russia. The question if this is a problem for Ukraine's war efforts is entirely relative. Like Silvanel mentioned the EU isn't really running out of ammo. This war definitely drained some of the Central and Eastern European countries of their Soviet era stocks in terms of equipment and ammunition but NATO standard stuff was left mostly untouched since it was incompatible with what Ukrainians were using. Now that Ukraine has more of the NATO equipment they might dip into the EU stocks of ammo for those but the amount of this equipment in Ukraine isn't so large as to really drain the stocks. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
France is allegedly blocking an EU decision to finance the supply of ammunition to Ukraine, which requires unanimity among member states. The decision to finance the supply of ammunition to Ukraine by the European Union was made at the EU summit in March. The €2 billion needed for this purpose are to be provided from the European Peace Facility. The political agreement reached at the summit, however, has yet to be turned into a legally binding document. Discussions regarding this case are still ongoing. Of the €2 billion, half is to be used to reimburse supplies of ammunition from member states’ warehouses. Currently, however, there are not enough missiles in these warehouses, which is why the idea of purchasing them from outside the EU has emerged. "However, this was opposed by France. In this situation, the solution would be to procure ammunition from a third country on a donated basis, and then recover it from the warehouses of a member state by transferring other weapons to the third country. Talks are underway on this matter," an EU source told PAP. A bigger problem is with the second billion euros, which is to be allocated for joint orders from European industry, i.e. de facto in Poland, France and Germany. "The French blocked the EU decision on the second billion euros before Christmas. The draft contained a provision that the ammunition was to be reimbursed only on the basis of requests submitted by Ukraine. Paris, however, wants, without explaining why, this provision to be deleted. This would also mean the possibility of refunding ammunition which the Ukrainian side has not asked for. In addition to the decision on ammunition, France wants to add the possibility of compensating for missile deliveries," a senior EU source told PAP. In the opinion of some diplomats, lobbying by defence companies may be behind France’s decision. Most EU countries protested against such changes, including Poland. Poland’s Permanent Representative to the EU, Andrzej Sadoś, pointed out at the ambassadors’ meeting in Brussels that the EU must not waste time and must provide Ukraine with ammunition supplies as soon as possible. Poland also expressed disappointment that the EU could not reach an agreement and indicated that it would be difficult to explain this to Ukrainian partners. Talks on the matter are expected to resume on Wednesday. Background: On 20 March, the Council of the European Union approved a plan to supply Ukraine with 1 million artillery shells within 12 months. Source | ||
pmp10
3248 Posts
Happens all the time. | ||
Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On April 13 2023 21:54 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: What the hell is going on? I'm going to assume this has not stopped Poland, and Germany from manufacturing ammo for Ukraine. As they are the only two European countries so far in the agreement; the third being the US. Source Idk if it is part of this agreement, since I couldn't figure out which one it is, but Norway is still an european country and we donate+produce artillery ammunition for ukraine. | ||
MJG
United Kingdom792 Posts
BBC currently reporting on Russian infighting over how death tolls are being calculated. | ||
Manit0u
Poland17203 Posts
On April 13 2023 22:26 Neneu wrote: Idk if it is part of this agreement, since I couldn't figure out which one it is, but Norway is still an european country and we donate+produce artillery ammunition for ukraine. I think it's not really a matter of if you can produce and donate ammo to Ukraine but rather if you're going to get paid/reimbursed for it. As usual in history, if there's a problem there's 99.99% chance it's because of money. | ||
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2526 Posts
1 billion for sending shells from storage. This has passed. 1 billion for buying shells. Opposed by France and Greece currently because it would allow buying shells from outside the EU. Probably because Turkey and France produce shells. Also other versions of the purchase bill discussed but opposed by other countries. It is always a bit complicated when it comes down to a shitton of money. | ||
maybenexttime
Poland5454 Posts
TLDR: Fucking moron endangering the lives of countless people for internet clout. | ||
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KwarK
United States42017 Posts
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r00ty
Germany1039 Posts
On April 14 2023 04:40 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: There are two agreements. 1 billion for sending shells from storage. This has passed. 1 billion for buying shells. Opposed by France and Greece currently because it would allow buying shells from outside the EU. Probably because Turkey and France produce shells. Also other versions of the purchase bill discussed but opposed by other countries. It is always a bit complicated when it comes down to a shitton of money. 35mm ammo for the Gepard AA tank has to be purchased in Switzerland, it's the only producer and Germany doesn't have any left AFAIK. It was already complicated because Switzerland had to disregard a law that forbids them from allowing their military gear to be sent to an active conflict. It's a defensive weapon system and drone killer, Ukraine needs this. Another dickmove by Macron, he made some weird decisions lately against overall European interest. Edit: Sorry I was wrong, Rheinmetall is producing the ammunition in Germany since february. | ||
Acrofales
Spain17854 Posts
On April 14 2023 07:33 r00ty wrote: 35mm ammo for the Gepard AA tank has to be purchased in Switzerland, it's the only producer and Germany doesn't have any left AFAIK. It was already complicated because Switzerland had to disregard a law that forbids them from allowing their military gear to be sent to an active conflict. It's a defensive weapon system and drone killer, Ukraine needs this. Another dickmove by Macron, he made some weird decisions lately against overall European interest. Defense contracts and agriculture subsidies are the big things France wants from the EU (money-wise). A defense contract worth 1B euros that has very little being spent in France (because there are very few French weapons that are being used in Ukraine), is obviously going to be tricky. That said, it's just a money thing. Promise Macron that France will get to build Italy some submarines or whatever and the whole thing goes away. It's weird that Macron is being stubborn on European defense stuff a day after he campaigned for more European cohesion in foreign policy tho... | ||
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