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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On September 11 2024 19:34 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2024 16:39 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
"There are no issues in society that an ethnic group can cause"
What kind of delusional statement is that? Rape or knife offenses going up because of certain groups in many European countries is just a conspiracy theory or how do you explain these statistics? Or grooming gangs in the UK? Black on black crimes in the States? All these groups do not cause issues in relation to other groups? This is seriously hilarious…
“If I believed that there was a problem with a particular group of humans based on their ethnicity, then what I would do is be racist against this ethnicity. “
It would only be racist if you would say that a certain group is causing problems BECAUSE OF THEIR ethnicity. Or generalize EVERY member of that ethnicity. Pointing out issues ABOUT certain groups WITHOUT GENERALIZING is not racist. How else would one talk about these things?
Or are these statistics, disproving your notion, ones that you "don't care about" or that you simply don't address like other facts that are inconvenient? As long as you can happily tell your narrative, facts or statistics don't need to be considered, it seems.
Further, I wasn’t only talking about ethnic groups, as I brought in the pay gap to undermine your hyper extreme slippery-slope-fallacy which argued that talking about issues surrounding Palestinians means that I am posing a Palestinian question. Again: I do not. The same way people that are talking about knife or rape crimes or black on black crime are simply looking for potential solutions by talking about an issue, I simply made a point about the behavior of Palestinians in hosting countries. And the “conclusions” I came up with were posted in this very thread several times and DO NOT include genocide or ethnic cleansing (demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing settlements similar to 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine).
By the way, you still did not word out what you think “my conclusion” is.
Protestors
I never asked anyone why they are protesting the deaths of people. Stop making unfounded accusations, I won't let them go through.
I explained that I talked with these protestors and that I realized while talking to them that they have very skewed perceptions about many things. People simply parroted the ideas of genocide, forced famine or Apartheid without having a clue about the numbers. Many were shocked how much help Israel is sending into Gaza or that they are the ones repairing and maintaining the pipes that provide water to Gaza. They simply did not know.
In Cologne, where I visited these protests, there are naturally many queers and gays (it is one of the most queer and gay friendly cities in the world)... these people walk around with "Queers or gays for Palestine" signs, not realizing that they would not even life freely in Palestine.
Thus I said that the protestors' views about an Apartheid state, barbaric actions of terrorists and them cherishing a way of life that is incompatible with Western values should be debunked. Of course they can and should protest against the war. I simply think that many of their narratives are wrong (like Apartheid, like genocide, like Israel killing indiscriminately), as the numbers and statistics show.
But I never asked anyone - like you falsely claimed - why they are protesting the death of people/the war in general, as that would be stupid to do.
Also, I was never justifying the killing of people because "they had the wrong values", if that is what you are implying (I was talking about the way of life that is present for women and LGTBQ when comparing values). From the start, I said that all these deaths are tragic and unfortunate. But the deaths that Israel is responsible for (roughly 41k minus the natural deaths, minus the people Hamas killed, minus the combatants, minus the numbers that led to impossible behavior of data sets, plus deaths that are not yet accounted, etc.) are collateral of a war. That is the "justification" for their deaths and as I said countless times, the IDF overall is doing an insanely commendable job of preventing non-combatant casualties if we compare the numbers with similar conflict zones and add Gaza specific context.
Your questions
Which questions of yours did I not answer in my last wall of text?
In my opinion, you are asking the wrong questions and began to realize that you need to put words in my mouth or twist my original statements or else your questions don't make sense.
Or that we can pick the numbers apart, but it wouldn't really go according to your narrative (which is fine... people learn new things and adapt their views, like the protestors I talked to.. but don't put that on me).
Where did I say that Israel is “wanting Palestinians out”?
“You're continuously saying that Israel isn't killing enough people for you to be bothered. “
Quote this. Where did I say this? If I did so continuously, it should be easy. I only said that casualties are a given in any war and that Israel’s numbers are very good in comparison.
All the other things
If at any time you want to address/talk about one of the following, let me know:
STC casualty rate as a means to discuss the "deliberate" killing of Palestinians (or the genocide accusations that have been flying around here too)
- How controlling for natural death numbers would affect the STC
- How many people were killed by Hamas and the effect on the STC
- How many people were killed by the IDF in retaliation to Hamas building bases in and firing from safety zones and the effect on the STC
- What kind of metric we should use to account for deaths that are caused by Hamas using civilian infrastructure (also affecting the STC)
- What to do about the impossible behavior of the data sets in regards to the “resurrections“ of fallen Hamas combatants or how the cumulated number of dead women and children exceeds the total numbers of deaths in certain periods
- How to account for the 10k "dead" that have not been IDed... who were they? Did they even exist?
- Explaining how the deliberate killing of a 70-75% women/children-population leads to 40% killed combatants
The massive amounts of medical and nutritional aid Israel provided as a means to discuss the accusations of "forced famine/starvation" (or again genocide)
- How much aid was put inside Gaza
- How that compares to the international standards of crisis areas (50% more than what is actually needed, based on calculations, entered Gaza)
- How much percent of trucks actually were prohibited from entering (less than 2%)
- What happens when the trucks have entered Gaza (for example over 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom)
- Hamas attacking humanitarian aid trucks, stealing and reselling the goods on the black market at inflated prices like Palestinians reported
- Israel actively repairing and maintaining pipes that Hamas has damaged in order to get water to Gaza
"It would only be racist if you would say that a certain group is causing problems BECAUSE OF THEIR ethnicity." Yes indeed, otherwise it wouldn't be the ethnicity causing the problem and the example would be irrelevant. If a group is causing a problem but it's not because of the ethnicity "x" of the members of the group, then it's not a "x" problem. Your example of gang-related violence being in large part associated with specific minority groups in most of the first world is perhaps the most apt at disproving that there are problems with ethnicities, as the ethnic group is different from country to country depending on that specific country's immigration. If it was an algerian problem that the Dzayir mafia exists, for example, then Algerians would create the same patterns in every country that they have immigrated in. They don't. I quickly googled "algerian gang in the US" and learned that the D-Block Boys, also known as DBG, was an African-American drug ring operating in Algiers, New Orleans, Louisiana, which made me laugh. "I never asked anyone why they are protesting the deaths of people." ...So why are you there?
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians.
Again: the “conclusion” I came up with and posted in this very thread several times does not include genocide or ethnic cleansing (demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine).
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread.
Things you didn’t address so far (outtakes)
- Where did I say that Israel is “wanting Palestinians out”?
- “You're continuously saying that Israel isn't killing enough people for you to be bothered. “
Quote this. Where did I say this? If I did so continuously, it should be easy. I only said that casualties are a given in any war and that Israel’s numbers are very good in comparison.
- You still did not word out what you think “my conclusion” is.
Important metrics/facts that can be discussed in regards to the war
STC casualty rate as a means to discuss the "deliberate" killing of Palestinians (or the genocide accusations that have been flowing around here too)
- How controlling for natural death numbers would affect the STC
- How many people were killed by Hamas and the effect on the STC
- How many people were killed by the IDF in retaliation to Hamas building bases in and firing from safety zones and the effect on the STC
- What kind of metric we should use to account for deaths that are caused by Hamas using civilian infrastructure (also affecting the STC)
- What to do about the impossible behavior of the data sets in regards to the “resurrections“ of fallen Hamas combatants or how the cumulated number of dead women and children exceeds the total numbers of deaths in certain periods
- How to account for the 10k "dead" that have not been IDed... who were they?
- Explaining how the deliberate killing of a 70-75% women/children-population leads to 40% killed combatants
The massive amounts of medical and nutritional aid Israel provided as a means to discuss the accusations of "forced famine/starvation" (or again genocide)
- How much aid was put inside Gaza
- How much percent of trucks actually were prohibited from entering
- What happens when the trucks have entered Gaza (for example over 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom)
- Hamas attacking humanitarian aid trucks, stealing and reselling the goods on the black market at inflated prices like Palestinians reported
- Israel actively repairing and maintaining pipes that Hamas has damaged in order to get water to Gaza
Overall
As you don’t seem to want to discuss my potential solution for the conflict and neither are willing to present one of your own (at least until now), I think we are at an end here, as with most subjects.
The same is true for the casualty rates, where so far you didn’t say a single word about the issues I raised in regards to them. You only presented an “estimation” of higher casualty numbers by The Lancet, which published a study that supported the Gazan MoH’s narrative before, but was obviously flawed and you go on to ignore the concerns I wrote about several times.
You further - according to your own statement - have no interest in discussing the humanitarian aid issue with all its surrounding facts, which I presented to debunk this myth of forced starvation and famine.
So I honestly don’t see much content that we are able to discuss, if a potential solution, the casualty rate as a means to test the ideas of indiscriminate killings or genocide and the humanitarian aid numbers are off the table. Let me know at any time, if you want to continue though.
@anyone how thinks that Israel not letting enough trucks in
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-posts-footage-of-hamas-members-beating-gazans-who-entered-aid-warehouse/
https://www.newsrael.com/posts/c2l7asshfr9
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Northern Ireland25501 Posts
Why does Gaza need so much humanitarian aid to begin with?
If I locked someone up in my basement, but was generous enough to give them 3 square meals a day am I being a particularly gracious host?
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On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians.
It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping.
I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back.
On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread.
As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values.
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On September 16 2024 21:51 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians. It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping. I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back. Show nested quote +On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread. As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values.
I don't have to walk anything back. I never made any notions except demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine.
You don't know these protestors' motivation. You were not in Cologne and neither did you speak to them. The people I talked to were addressing the very things I criticize.
As I said: if you want to discuss a potential solution, the casualty rate as a means to test the ideas of indiscriminate killings or genocide and the humanitarian aid numbers, let me know.
On September 16 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:
Why does Gaza need so much humanitarian aid to begin with?
If I locked someone up in my basement, but was generous enough to give them 3 square meals a day am I being a particularly gracious host?
The Gazans live in an acute conflict zone, which only is an acute conflict zone because Hamas deliberately and indiscrimnately targeted the civilian population of Israel as well as interntational innocent people. Israel did not counter-attack even when facing hundreds of rockets that are thrown at them every year.
Hamas took hostages of which 100 still are in the hands of Hamas if they have not been murdered yet.
As getting the hostages back is one of the declared goals, you are able to deduct why things haven't stopped so far.
Your analogy distorts reality,oversimplifies the situation and thus fails on several fronts as you probably are aware (incomplete comparison, no context given as to why the person is locked up, mischaracterization of Israel's role as being able to "lock up" Gazans, Israel's responsibility, the fallacy of solely blaming Israel, Gazans being more hostages of Hamas than any other faction). But simply realize, that Israel does not have ANY obligation to deliver aid in any way, shape or form and it is the only faction who has been giving so much to the civilian population of the oppossing side on such a massive scale after being attacked.
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On September 16 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:
Why does Gaza need so much humanitarian aid to begin with?
If I locked someone up in their* basement, but was generous enough to give them 3 square meals a day am I being a particularly gracious host?
FTFY
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On September 16 2024 22:23 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2024 21:51 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians. It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping. I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back. On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread. As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values. I don't have to walk anything back. I never made any notions except demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine. You don't know these protestors' motivation. You were not in Cologne and neither did you speak to them. The people I talked to were addressing the very things I criticize.
Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make.
And yes you're right I don't know the protestors' motivations, I wasn't there. So, do you reckon I'm wrong? They're not here because they think killing people is bad?
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On September 16 2024 23:22 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2024 22:23 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 21:51 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians. It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping. I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back. On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread. As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values. I don't have to walk anything back. I never made any notions except demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine. You don't know these protestors' motivation. You were not in Cologne and neither did you speak to them. The people I talked to were addressing the very things I criticize. Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make. And yes you're right I don't know the protestors' motivations, I wasn't there. So, do you reckon I'm wrong? They're not here because they think killing people is bad?
I pointed out that it would be stupid to assume that there can mostly be one reason (Islamophobia... like you did in 6174) that makes people not care about Palestinians. I showed, that other reasons can also exist, even for majority countries/governments that share the same faith, to tackle that idiotic notion of Islamophobia.
There can be a multitude of reasons like safety concerns, other worries or the simple fact that these Palestinians are collateral in a war, that has an extremely low civilian casualty rate.
I know what these people talked with me about. And they were talking about things that don't interest you/which you avoid replying to.
Anyway: You know what to do, if you want to address the facts and numbers that shape the reality of this conflict, instead of beating around the bush with these nonsensical side-topics.
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On September 17 2024 04:20 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2024 23:22 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 22:23 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 21:51 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians. It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping. I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back. On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread. As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values. I don't have to walk anything back. I never made any notions except demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine. You don't know these protestors' motivation. You were not in Cologne and neither did you speak to them. The people I talked to were addressing the very things I criticize. Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make. And yes you're right I don't know the protestors' motivations, I wasn't there. So, do you reckon I'm wrong? They're not here because they think killing people is bad? I pointed out that it would be stupid to assume that there can mostly be one reason (Islamophobia... like you did in 6174) that makes people not care about Palestinians. I showed, that other reasons can also exist, even for majority countries/governments that share the same faith, to tackle that idiotic notion of Islamophobia. There can be a multitude of reasons like safety concerns, other worries or the simple fact that these Palestinians are collateral in a war, that has an extremely low civilian casualty rate. I know what these people talked with me about. And they were talking about things that don't interest you/which you avoid replying to. Anyway: You know what to do, if you want to address the facts and numbers that shape the reality of this conflict, instead of beating around the bush with these nonsensical side-topics.
The part where you say stuff that you don't really believe and then you pretend you're holding your own through stalling and rhetoric I'm not going back to, it was taking too much time. The part where you were saying things that you truly believe, like Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, Palestinians are scary people with evil values, and maybe it makes sense that Israel has to deal with them in some way, that was a "new" conversation in the context of this thread and it was at least worth exploring, in my opinion, but only insofar as you don't walk it back whenever it feels convenient to you. I can understand dishonest tactics when you're saying something you don't really believe, but in support of your actual position it's just weird.
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Northern Ireland25501 Posts
On September 16 2024 22:35 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:
Why does Gaza need so much humanitarian aid to begin with?
If I locked someone up in their* basement, but was generous enough to give them 3 square meals a day am I being a particularly gracious host? FTFY
Touché
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What do you mean about Israel not counter attacking? They've been killing and maiming Palestinians on a daily basis for decades, long before Hamas even existed; not to mention the destruction of critical infrastructure or housing, occupied land, restrictions on movement, surveillance, and so on. It's so weird that you're pretending active conflict in Palestine started after a somewhat significant number of Israelis died, never mind that way more Palestinians were killed by the IDF over the years.
As for them having no obligation to provide aid to Palestine -- yes, they are, in fact, obligated to provide all the things necessary for Palestinians' survival, considering Palestine is an occupied and blockaded territory. International laws are pretty clear on that.
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This story about the exploding pagers is Black Mirror-esque. Presumably the IDF found a flaw in the pagers used by Hezbollah to communicate and were able to send some signal to them that made them simultaneously explode. Lebanon reports there's 9 dead and 3000 wounded by this.
If you're wondering what kind of damage an exploding pager can do, there's a CCTV video on this BBC page about the story: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyl9048gx8t
Edit: A slightly more reasonable explanation might be that the IDF intercepted the supply chain and loaded them with small explosives. Either way, one of the more eccentric operations in modern warfare.
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On September 18 2024 03:11 Dan HH wrote:This story about the exploding pagers is Black Mirror-esque. Presumably the IDF found a flaw in the pagers used by Hezbollah to communicate and were able to send some signal to them that made them simultaneously explode. Lebanon reports there's 9 dead and 3000 wounded by this. If you're wondering what kind of damage an exploding pager can do, there's a CCTV video on this BBC page about the story: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyl9048gx8tEdit: A slightly more reasonable explanation might be that the IDF intercepted the supply chain and loaded them with small explosives. Either way, one of the more eccentric operations in modern warfare.
There's no way to make a battery fail like that - they aren't explosive, they deflagrate at worst. Even with the "exploding Note 7" debacle from years ago, you'd have small burns etc, nothing like what we've seen. Pagers are much smaller - running on a AA or AAA battery - not much energy in there.
These pagers were definitely modified with some explosives which is a helluva supply chain attack. Iranian ambassador to Lebanon was injured by it as well, so you can make the obvious connection.
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This is also a good indication of how infiltrated Hezbollah is by Israeli intelligence.
There is no way they would pre-plant explosives but not monitor communications.
It was also likely a one-shot op so if invasion is to follow it will happen soon.
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If Netanyahu thinks that Trump is losing, it would be a good time to go on the offensive. You introduce a lot of new variables and it's harder to predict what happens after that. It's a risk but there's a good chance that he perceives the risk as worth taking imo.
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On September 18 2024 04:19 Nebuchad wrote:
If Netanyahu thinks that Trump is losing, it would be a good time to go on the offensive. You introduce a lot of new variables and it's harder to predict what happens after that. It's a risk but there's a good chance that he perceives the risk as worth taking imo. Motive can be just as easily found at home in Israel, if the war in Gaza is winding down Netanyahu needs a new war to keep everyone occupied and away from questioning his position and actions.
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I dunno, sounds like terrorism to me.
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United States42804 Posts
Eh, Hezbollah does insist that it is at war with Israel. Given that they refuse to wear proper uniforms it’s tough to deliver bombs to their soldiers. Infiltrating the supply chain and getting Hezbollah to perform the deliveries themselves is both pretty smart and a pretty precise way of getting bombs where they need to go.
People don’t like 500lb bombs on buildings containing Hezbollah fighters. This is 50g bombs in the pockets of Hezbollah fighters. It’s exactly the kind of innovative solution they needed to come up with.
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On September 18 2024 06:21 KwarK wrote:
Eh, Hezbollah does insist that it is at war with Israel. Given that they refuse to wear proper uniforms it’s tough to deliver bombs to their soldiers. Infiltrating the supply chain and getting Hezbollah to perform the deliveries themselves is both pretty smart and a pretty precise way of getting bombs where they need to go.
People don’t like 500lb bombs on buildings containing Hezbollah fighters. This is 50g bombs in the pockets of Hezbollah fighters. It’s exactly the kind of innovative solution they needed to come up with.
TBH I agree.
Its an escalation, sure, but I can't criticize them for not giving a shit about civilian casualties in Gaza and then get all angry when they specifically target military personnel like this, in the middle of what is definitely an armed conflict.
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Northern Ireland25501 Posts
On September 18 2024 06:21 KwarK wrote:
Eh, Hezbollah does insist that it is at war with Israel. Given that they refuse to wear proper uniforms it’s tough to deliver bombs to their soldiers. Infiltrating the supply chain and getting Hezbollah to perform the deliveries themselves is both pretty smart and a pretty precise way of getting bombs where they need to go.
People don’t like 500lb bombs on buildings containing Hezbollah fighters. This is 50g bombs in the pockets of Hezbollah fighters. It’s exactly the kind of innovative solution they needed to come up with.
Aye can’t disagree with that like
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EPT
