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On August 19 2021 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 21:42 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 18:44 Amumoman wrote:
Took the metrotrain for the first time in a long time here in Denmark. There was still a mask mandate in place but 9/10 didnt wear one. Warms my heart to see the hysteria on the retreate. Aside from masks and stuff, I'm always smiling if I read people taking a train! And I mean an amusing "welcome to the club" smile! I think 2020 from around mid March to a little bit of May I admit, I took the car to get to work (no, I had no homeoffice). But after that, "back to normal" and taking the train every weekday to this day! (well some days I took the car, but those are minor) I'm not sure, what is the big thing about that...? Can someone link me to an article or anything about "someone with Covid took a train, now 100 people are infected!" Because I don't know any and we are basically "back and live" with the current discussion of being afraid of things that are not dangerous! Literally the beginning of the covid pandemic was from situations like this one: "Of the 3711 people onboard, around 700 were eventually infected with the virus (567 out of 2,666 passengers and 145 out of 1,045 crew)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess Also: "Researchers who investigated a case of community outbreak in Zhejiang province, China, found that a COVID-19 positive person has infected at least 23 persons who rode a bus with him to a religious event in less than two hours. This happened before wearing face mask was made mandatory as a precautionary measure against the dreaded SARS-CoV-2 virus." https://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/covid-positive-person-infects-23-bus-passengers-in-china-is-coronavirus-disease-really-airborne/646413 Same scenario: "When 67 Buddhist passengers and their driver boarded a bus in Ningbo, China, on January 19, 2020, it's likely that only one person among them was incubating the coronavirus. None knew or expected they'd get ill that day, so no one was wearing a mask." https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-bus-study-virus-spreads-beyond-6-feet-from-patient-2020-9 So yes, of course it can happen. To deny that it could happen would deny that covid can spread within confined areas, airborne. There's really no downside to just playing it safe and masking up.
Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby 
But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...)
It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense  ) proof!
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On August 19 2021 23:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 23:03 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:57 JimmiC wrote:On August 19 2021 22:39 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:24 JimmiC wrote:On August 19 2021 22:16 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:13 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 20:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:49 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 20:36 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
Not merely a recommendation; thats whats so beautiful. Most people have ignored the senseless recommendations all along but now most people ignore the most moronic of mandates and enforcement (of this mandate) seems largely abandonned/severely downprioritezed.
As for possible consequences, they’re the same as any other “crime” ie execution for refusal to comply and adhere and denigrate your soul by worshipping the State (assuming you start defending yourself when the police attemps to do violence unto you) How on earth is wearing a mask on public transport a "senseless recommendation"? Didnt say it were; just as I didnt say it weren’t Yes, you did. You said it warmed your heart to see people not wearing masks despite the mandate, that it was beautiful. Then you added that now most people ignore the most moronic of mandates. The change in behaviour you brought up was not wearing masks on public transport, which heavily implies that this is the measure you had in mind. Don't pretend this is not what you've said. We're not dumb, mate. Theres a difference between mandate and recommendation. There are a lot of recommendations (inc masks) i dont feel strongly about that would be abhorrent in mandate form Edit: what i wrote warmed my heart was the hysteria decreasing Then explain fully what you mean with "hysteria decreasing". It is basically a click baity title, now you to explain who was hysterical and why they were being hysterical. Sure i dont mind explaining since you ask so politely. Irregardless of masks being a sensible recommendation or not (i have no strong opinion about that), people disregarding the mandate is a sign that people are less fearful, less hysterical which i believe to be a good thing I think the issue is just misuse of words than. Hysterical would be being affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion. Wearing a mask during a pandemic would not be extreme and on top of that choosing to wear one would be very controlled. Someone could get hysterical and not wear a max and yell and scream about it. Or someone could become hysterical at someone refusing a mask. More people breaking a mandate would show less control not more and some would say a extreme emotion to break that rule. I don't think you example of a train says anything about hysteria, but if it does it is the opposite of what you are saying. Also when I looked up mask mandates in Denmark it says that in June the rules changed to wear masks were only mandatory on public transport during rush hours. So really it is likely that people were following the rules which given the spread seem very sensible. Nothing hysterical from the people or the government. It might be your own biases coloring your interpretations. This happened one week before that mandate was changed. At the time masks were mandated whenever standing up once you enter a station. We may read different things into the word hysteria, I suppose. If unreasonable disproportionate neurosis flies better with you, i dont mind going with that. You randomly today brought up something from 2 months ago? It happened on June 14th. Come on now stop with the BS. And we don't read different things, there is definitions of words if you use the correct ones people understand you, if you make up your own they don't. And that is not on them.
I suppose it wasn’t randomly - i was skimming through what you guys were writing about and thought i’d share my good moment. If you believe i made it up, thats okay - my mood isnt bothered by that.
Going by dictionary definitions, describing emotionally charged behaviour that seems excessive or out of control as hysteria is pretty standard, isnt it? You may disagree with the implied assessment with my usage of the word, but im not using the word incorrectly.
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On August 19 2021 22:52 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:30 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 21:14 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2021 20:50 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 20:36 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What are the consequences for not abiding by a mask mandate? I assume that if it's not being enforced, then people aren't going to take the "mandate" seriously. Is it merely a recommendation? Not merely a recommendation; thats whats so beautiful. Most people have ignored the senseless recommendations all along but now most people ignore the most moronic of mandates and enforcement (of this mandate) seems largely abandonned/severely downprioritezed. As for possible consequences, they’re the same as any other “crime” ie execution for refusal to comply and adhere and denigrate your soul by worshipping the State (assuming you start defending yourself when the police attemps to do violence unto you) Why are the recommendations senseless, if they're supported by the medical and scientific communities? I don't live in Denmark, but according to Worldometer, your country isn't covid-free ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/denmark/ ). Wouldn't it make sense to at least wear masks a while longer, since your country hasn't reached the herd immunity benchmark yet? I didnt mean to imply all recommendations by those - who so hubristically unironiccaly refer to themselves as the authorities - have been senseless; but a lot of recommendations have been senseless/incoherent for sure. What I find disturbing and repugnant though is the encouragement of the inappropriate life-attitude of fear and unquestioning submission to ‘authorities’. Which of the recommendations do you consider senseless? Oh boy thats a long list but let me mention what I find most egregious and appalling. the recommendation that healthy people worry about getting sick and getting other healthy people sick. Nothing wrong with soberly encouraging people whose health is significantly compromised (obesity or what have you) to be be cautious and encouraging all to be cautious within reason not to infect them. But this fear-mongering and encouragement of hysteria and neurosis has led to people having an insanely warped sense of how at risk evidence suggests they are which in turn has led to a lot of people (particularly those prone to anxiousness) refraning from activities that promote human thriving: seeing friends/family, going to gym etc etc). To give you a sense of how absurd this got (and if you look at polls from around the western world this anecdote does not seem to be an outlier), I asked my two younger siblings some time ago how many people they thought had died from covid in denmark below the age of 60; they guessed 100 and 150 - at the time i asked the actual number was 3 of all whom confirmed to have compromised health Edit: spelling Do you have the same opinion on drunk driving? You tell me if you find them similar. I think encouraging people to worry disproportionally about, to be hysterical about, to be neurotic about drunk driving goes against whats optimal for human thriving. I dont think there’s anything wrong with soberly and earnestlessly conveying information about how being under the influence of alchohol affects people’s ability to operate cars responsibly. Or talk about sensible ideas/measures within families/friend circles/communities/societies etc as to reduce drunk driving. Nobody is talking about being neurotic about drunk driving. I'll ask bluntly: should drunk driving be allowed or should it be penalised? Allowed by whom? In the name of which authority? Enforced how? Etc Leaving aside such technicalities that people who worship the State dont seem concerned with, let me answer your question this way: let us assume there was a community somewhere and they all voluntarily agreed that within their community there would be punishment for drunk driving, i dont have the slightest problem with this.
You aren't entitled to live in a society. You aren't born with a right to anything. You are afforded rights by societies which have been able to secure their territory and impose their belief and ethical structures. The individual is not important. The reality is that societies need to be built in ways that most individuals will disagree with in some form. But the key is that individuals are not owed their ideal society. I have no right to force my view on the military but i am able to vote as an individual in a way that can eventually influence the military.
Overall, you seem entitled to the point that you aren't able to see it. You seem to imagine some kind of divine rights to determine the world you get to live in.
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On August 19 2021 22:54 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 22:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 22:39 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:24 JimmiC wrote:On August 19 2021 22:16 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:13 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 20:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:49 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 20:36 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What are the consequences for not abiding by a mask mandate? I assume that if it's not being enforced, then people aren't going to take the "mandate" seriously. Is it merely a recommendation? Not merely a recommendation; thats whats so beautiful. Most people have ignored the senseless recommendations all along but now most people ignore the most moronic of mandates and enforcement (of this mandate) seems largely abandonned/severely downprioritezed. As for possible consequences, they’re the same as any other “crime” ie execution for refusal to comply and adhere and denigrate your soul by worshipping the State (assuming you start defending yourself when the police attemps to do violence unto you) How on earth is wearing a mask on public transport a "senseless recommendation"? Didnt say it were; just as I didnt say it weren’t Yes, you did. You said it warmed your heart to see people not wearing masks despite the mandate, that it was beautiful. Then you added that now most people ignore the most moronic of mandates. The change in behaviour you brought up was not wearing masks on public transport, which heavily implies that this is the measure you had in mind. Don't pretend this is not what you've said. We're not dumb, mate. Theres a difference between mandate and recommendation. There are a lot of recommendations (inc masks) i dont feel strongly about that would be abhorrent in mandate form Edit: what i wrote warmed my heart was the hysteria decreasing Then explain fully what you mean with "hysteria decreasing". It is basically a click baity title, now you to explain who was hysterical and why they were being hysterical. Sure i dont mind explaining since you ask so politely. Irregardless of masks being a sensible recommendation or not (i have no strong opinion about that), people disregarding the mandate is a sign that people are less fearful, less hysterical which i believe to be a good thing Except those people are also ignoring the best scientific and medical recommendations, which means they may not be fearful, but they're also making incredibly dangerous decisions. Being fearless can be bad if the person is also being careless or stupid. It's like saying people aren't afraid to drive drunk, or people aren't afraid to *not* wear seatbelts, or people aren't afraid to stick their heads in a lion's mouth. Not necessarily good things. You may or may not be right but your point has nothing to do with mine.Less hysteria itself is a good thing. A sensible good act (and masks may or may not be that for all i know) can be carried out without hysteria.
Of course it does. Fearlessly endangering yourself or killing other people isn't a good thing just because it's fearless. And trying to disguise public health recommendations as "hysteria", after millions of people have been killed by something, is a misnomer.
On August 19 2021 23:07 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 22:59 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:30 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 21:14 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2021 20:50 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:[quote] Why are the recommendations senseless, if they're supported by the medical and scientific communities? I don't live in Denmark, but according to Worldometer, your country isn't covid-free ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/denmark/ ). Wouldn't it make sense to at least wear masks a while longer, since your country hasn't reached the herd immunity benchmark yet? I didnt mean to imply all recommendations by those - who so hubristically unironiccaly refer to themselves as the authorities - have been senseless; but a lot of recommendations have been senseless/incoherent for sure. What I find disturbing and repugnant though is the encouragement of the inappropriate life-attitude of fear and unquestioning submission to ‘authorities’. Which of the recommendations do you consider senseless? Oh boy thats a long list but let me mention what I find most egregious and appalling. the recommendation that healthy people worry about getting sick and getting other healthy people sick. Nothing wrong with soberly encouraging people whose health is significantly compromised (obesity or what have you) to be be cautious and encouraging all to be cautious within reason not to infect them. But this fear-mongering and encouragement of hysteria and neurosis has led to people having an insanely warped sense of how at risk evidence suggests they are which in turn has led to a lot of people (particularly those prone to anxiousness) refraning from activities that promote human thriving: seeing friends/family, going to gym etc etc). To give you a sense of how absurd this got (and if you look at polls from around the western world this anecdote does not seem to be an outlier), I asked my two younger siblings some time ago how many people they thought had died from covid in denmark below the age of 60; they guessed 100 and 150 - at the time i asked the actual number was 3 of all whom confirmed to have compromised health Edit: spelling Do you have the same opinion on drunk driving? You tell me if you find them similar. I think encouraging people to worry disproportionally about, to be hysterical about, to be neurotic about drunk driving goes against whats optimal for human thriving. I dont think there’s anything wrong with soberly and earnestlessly conveying information about how being under the influence of alchohol affects people’s ability to operate cars responsibly. Or talk about sensible ideas/measures within families/friend circles/communities/societies etc as to reduce drunk driving. Nobody is talking about being neurotic about drunk driving. I'll ask bluntly: should drunk driving be allowed or should it be penalised? Allowed by whom? In the name of which authority? Enforced how? Etc Leaving aside such technicalities that people who worship the State dont seem concerned with, let me answer your question this way: let us assume there was a community somewhere and they all voluntarily agreed that within their community there would be punishment for drunk driving, i dont have the slightest problem with this. The society you live in. Stop playing stupid games. I am playing stupid games by thinking there’s a difference between voluntary interaction between peers and subjugation coersion and violence carried out in the name of the State, the Greater Good or whatever psychopathic fucks with god-complexes justify their evil against their fellow men with? Ok bro
Why do you insist on misrepresenting the people who are being informed by the data and statements put forth by health care experts? You're being absurdist and you keep strawmanning the situation.
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Norway28675 Posts
On August 19 2021 23:07 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 22:59 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:30 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 21:14 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2021 20:50 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:[quote] Why are the recommendations senseless, if they're supported by the medical and scientific communities? I don't live in Denmark, but according to Worldometer, your country isn't covid-free ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/denmark/ ). Wouldn't it make sense to at least wear masks a while longer, since your country hasn't reached the herd immunity benchmark yet? I didnt mean to imply all recommendations by those - who so hubristically unironiccaly refer to themselves as the authorities - have been senseless; but a lot of recommendations have been senseless/incoherent for sure. What I find disturbing and repugnant though is the encouragement of the inappropriate life-attitude of fear and unquestioning submission to ‘authorities’. Which of the recommendations do you consider senseless? Oh boy thats a long list but let me mention what I find most egregious and appalling. the recommendation that healthy people worry about getting sick and getting other healthy people sick. Nothing wrong with soberly encouraging people whose health is significantly compromised (obesity or what have you) to be be cautious and encouraging all to be cautious within reason not to infect them. But this fear-mongering and encouragement of hysteria and neurosis has led to people having an insanely warped sense of how at risk evidence suggests they are which in turn has led to a lot of people (particularly those prone to anxiousness) refraning from activities that promote human thriving: seeing friends/family, going to gym etc etc). To give you a sense of how absurd this got (and if you look at polls from around the western world this anecdote does not seem to be an outlier), I asked my two younger siblings some time ago how many people they thought had died from covid in denmark below the age of 60; they guessed 100 and 150 - at the time i asked the actual number was 3 of all whom confirmed to have compromised health Edit: spelling Do you have the same opinion on drunk driving? You tell me if you find them similar. I think encouraging people to worry disproportionally about, to be hysterical about, to be neurotic about drunk driving goes against whats optimal for human thriving. I dont think there’s anything wrong with soberly and earnestlessly conveying information about how being under the influence of alchohol affects people’s ability to operate cars responsibly. Or talk about sensible ideas/measures within families/friend circles/communities/societies etc as to reduce drunk driving. Nobody is talking about being neurotic about drunk driving. I'll ask bluntly: should drunk driving be allowed or should it be penalised? Allowed by whom? In the name of which authority? Enforced how? Etc Leaving aside such technicalities that people who worship the State dont seem concerned with, let me answer your question this way: let us assume there was a community somewhere and they all voluntarily agreed that within their community there would be punishment for drunk driving, i dont have the slightest problem with this. The society you live in. Stop playing stupid games. I am playing stupid games by thinking there’s a difference between voluntary interaction between peers and subjugation coersion and violence carried out in the name of the State, the Greater Good or whatever psychopathic fucks with god-complexes justify their evil against their fellow men with? Ok bro
I wasn't fond of the send people off on rafts into whatever ocean of their choosing but to me it sounds like you should try to self-isolate in some forest and live off the land or whatever. Being Scandinavian, you guys also have the freedom to roam, right?
You live in a society. Seeing how you are using the internet, you are clearly comfortable taking advantage of infrastructure created for the benefit of all. This also necessitates accepting some responsibilities, as well as adhering to some rules and regulations agreed upon by a majority of your population. It's entirely fair to disagree with some of these rules, and hell, I'm not gonna judge you if you choose to break some of the rules you disagree the most with. But the way you phrase yourself does nothing but make you sound like a whiny, petulant child. Denmark is not some tyrannical hellscape. Danish police enforcing laws agreed upon by a majority of the Danish population does not entail 'psychopathic fucks with God-complexes committing evil against their fellow men'.
I don't care whether you wanna wear a mask or not, but you are not entitled to reap the benefits of society without also adjusting your behavior in some accordance to what the majority wants. Or, I mean, you can do whatever you want. It's just not gonna be free of consequence. Prolly healthy for you to just accept this sooner rather than later.
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On August 19 2021 23:07 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 22:59 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:30 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 21:14 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2021 20:50 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:[quote] Why are the recommendations senseless, if they're supported by the medical and scientific communities? I don't live in Denmark, but according to Worldometer, your country isn't covid-free ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/denmark/ ). Wouldn't it make sense to at least wear masks a while longer, since your country hasn't reached the herd immunity benchmark yet? I didnt mean to imply all recommendations by those - who so hubristically unironiccaly refer to themselves as the authorities - have been senseless; but a lot of recommendations have been senseless/incoherent for sure. What I find disturbing and repugnant though is the encouragement of the inappropriate life-attitude of fear and unquestioning submission to ‘authorities’. Which of the recommendations do you consider senseless? Oh boy thats a long list but let me mention what I find most egregious and appalling. the recommendation that healthy people worry about getting sick and getting other healthy people sick. Nothing wrong with soberly encouraging people whose health is significantly compromised (obesity or what have you) to be be cautious and encouraging all to be cautious within reason not to infect them. But this fear-mongering and encouragement of hysteria and neurosis has led to people having an insanely warped sense of how at risk evidence suggests they are which in turn has led to a lot of people (particularly those prone to anxiousness) refraning from activities that promote human thriving: seeing friends/family, going to gym etc etc). To give you a sense of how absurd this got (and if you look at polls from around the western world this anecdote does not seem to be an outlier), I asked my two younger siblings some time ago how many people they thought had died from covid in denmark below the age of 60; they guessed 100 and 150 - at the time i asked the actual number was 3 of all whom confirmed to have compromised health Edit: spelling Do you have the same opinion on drunk driving? You tell me if you find them similar. I think encouraging people to worry disproportionally about, to be hysterical about, to be neurotic about drunk driving goes against whats optimal for human thriving. I dont think there’s anything wrong with soberly and earnestlessly conveying information about how being under the influence of alchohol affects people’s ability to operate cars responsibly. Or talk about sensible ideas/measures within families/friend circles/communities/societies etc as to reduce drunk driving. Nobody is talking about being neurotic about drunk driving. I'll ask bluntly: should drunk driving be allowed or should it be penalised? Allowed by whom? In the name of which authority? Enforced how? Etc Leaving aside such technicalities that people who worship the State dont seem concerned with, let me answer your question this way: let us assume there was a community somewhere and they all voluntarily agreed that within their community there would be punishment for drunk driving, i dont have the slightest problem with this. The society you live in. Stop playing stupid games. I am playing stupid games by thinking there’s a difference between voluntary interaction between peers and subjugation coersion and violence carried out in the name of the State, the Greater Good or whatever psychopathic fucks with god-complexes justify their evil against their fellow men with? Ok bro
Well, you are justifying your own evil with "freedom".
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On August 19 2021 23:39 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 23:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:59 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:30 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 21:14 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2021 20:50 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
I didnt mean to imply all recommendations by those - who so hubristically unironiccaly refer to themselves as the authorities - have been senseless; but a lot of recommendations have been senseless/incoherent for sure. What I find disturbing and repugnant though is the encouragement of the inappropriate life-attitude of fear and unquestioning submission to ‘authorities’. Which of the recommendations do you consider senseless? Oh boy thats a long list but let me mention what I find most egregious and appalling. the recommendation that healthy people worry about getting sick and getting other healthy people sick. Nothing wrong with soberly encouraging people whose health is significantly compromised (obesity or what have you) to be be cautious and encouraging all to be cautious within reason not to infect them. But this fear-mongering and encouragement of hysteria and neurosis has led to people having an insanely warped sense of how at risk evidence suggests they are which in turn has led to a lot of people (particularly those prone to anxiousness) refraning from activities that promote human thriving: seeing friends/family, going to gym etc etc). To give you a sense of how absurd this got (and if you look at polls from around the western world this anecdote does not seem to be an outlier), I asked my two younger siblings some time ago how many people they thought had died from covid in denmark below the age of 60; they guessed 100 and 150 - at the time i asked the actual number was 3 of all whom confirmed to have compromised health Edit: spelling Do you have the same opinion on drunk driving? You tell me if you find them similar. I think encouraging people to worry disproportionally about, to be hysterical about, to be neurotic about drunk driving goes against whats optimal for human thriving. I dont think there’s anything wrong with soberly and earnestlessly conveying information about how being under the influence of alchohol affects people’s ability to operate cars responsibly. Or talk about sensible ideas/measures within families/friend circles/communities/societies etc as to reduce drunk driving. Nobody is talking about being neurotic about drunk driving. I'll ask bluntly: should drunk driving be allowed or should it be penalised? Allowed by whom? In the name of which authority? Enforced how? Etc Leaving aside such technicalities that people who worship the State dont seem concerned with, let me answer your question this way: let us assume there was a community somewhere and they all voluntarily agreed that within their community there would be punishment for drunk driving, i dont have the slightest problem with this. The society you live in. Stop playing stupid games. I am playing stupid games by thinking there’s a difference between voluntary interaction between peers and subjugation coersion and violence carried out in the name of the State, the Greater Good or whatever psychopathic fucks with god-complexes justify their evil against their fellow men with? Ok bro Well, you are justifying your own evil with "freedom".
He started from a basic assumption of being entitled to freedom and never justified it in his own head. I remember similar smooth-brain dialectics in freshman philosophy classes.
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I can say I did not expect to go from criticizing force and coercion to criticizing anarchy and rebellion in the span of just a single day.
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On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 21:42 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 18:44 Amumoman wrote:
Took the metrotrain for the first time in a long time here in Denmark. There was still a mask mandate in place but 9/10 didnt wear one. Warms my heart to see the hysteria on the retreate. Aside from masks and stuff, I'm always smiling if I read people taking a train! And I mean an amusing "welcome to the club" smile! I think 2020 from around mid March to a little bit of May I admit, I took the car to get to work (no, I had no homeoffice). But after that, "back to normal" and taking the train every weekday to this day! (well some days I took the car, but those are minor) I'm not sure, what is the big thing about that...? Can someone link me to an article or anything about "someone with Covid took a train, now 100 people are infected!" Because I don't know any and we are basically "back and live" with the current discussion of being afraid of things that are not dangerous! Literally the beginning of the covid pandemic was from situations like this one: "Of the 3711 people onboard, around 700 were eventually infected with the virus (567 out of 2,666 passengers and 145 out of 1,045 crew)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess Also: "Researchers who investigated a case of community outbreak in Zhejiang province, China, found that a COVID-19 positive person has infected at least 23 persons who rode a bus with him to a religious event in less than two hours. This happened before wearing face mask was made mandatory as a precautionary measure against the dreaded SARS-CoV-2 virus." https://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/covid-positive-person-infects-23-bus-passengers-in-china-is-coronavirus-disease-really-airborne/646413 Same scenario: "When 67 Buddhist passengers and their driver boarded a bus in Ningbo, China, on January 19, 2020, it's likely that only one person among them was incubating the coronavirus. None knew or expected they'd get ill that day, so no one was wearing a mask." https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-bus-study-virus-spreads-beyond-6-feet-from-patient-2020-9 So yes, of course it can happen. To deny that it could happen would deny that covid can spread within confined areas, airborne. There's really no downside to just playing it safe and masking up. Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense ) proof!
That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas.
If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples.
And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing.
If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks.
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Northern Ireland25517 Posts
On August 19 2021 20:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 20:21 farvacola wrote:On August 19 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 04:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not too fond of the rational/irrational angle, as I generally believe everyone acts in accordance with their own rationality. The issue how I see it is more a question of people inhabiting different information universes, and, indeed, that some people end up being consistently wrong because they, for whatever reason, (not necessarily related to intelligence) stumbled into a wrong information universe. These different universes aren't necessarily different in how rationally they interpret facts, they rather differ in what facts form the foundation of their greater beliefs.
Then, I believe the one I myself inhabit is significantly more likely to be true, because it more consistently leans on a consensus of what experts in x field believe. But I (generally) don't think others who consistently believe other things are stupid or irrational. I think they are ignorant and wrong. I think this is a really interesting take, and I'm wondering about the falsifiability of it, and whether or not it excuses behavior and actions that shouldn't be excused. If everyone has "their own rationality", does that mean that it's impossible to be irrational? After all, if you think that I'm being irrational, can't I just assert that my personal rationality permits whatever you're contesting? Doesn't there need to be a more objective arbiter of what's rational*? I could absolutely see some weird, nonsensical, post-truth hot-take that no one is ever truly incorrect about anything; they simply inhabit a "different information universe". Thoughts on that? In response to "These different universes aren't necessarily different in how rationally they interpret facts, they rather differ in what facts form the foundation of their greater beliefs" - I actually see these two things as the same thing. If you and I have the same 10 facts in front of us, and I care more about the first 5 while you care more about the last 5, you and I are actually both choosing how we interpret all 10 facts. By willfully ignoring some facts and focusing on others, we're each interpreting the entire collection. Cherry-picking certain facts may or may not be rational* to do (I suppose this depends on how we're defining "rational"*), but I think that it's basically a prerequisite in order to choose which ones form the foundation of our greater beliefs, and I don't think using every subset of facts is equally rational*. Thoughts? *I feel like "rational" can often be synonymous with logically consistent, reasonable, true, sound, or valid, though these are not all the same thing, and this can lead to a bunch of semantics issues. I take it to be the opposite; there's no such thing as true rationality, only varying shades of irrationality dressed up in reasoning. However, that doesn't mean there's no way to judge particular decisions as more or less correct, only that the ideals of thought are just that, ideals that serve as asymptotic signposts that folks sometimes draw nearer to and sometimes retreat from. The lack of an essential character to big ticket items like truth, good, and bad doesn't disrupt the basis for judgments, it only suggests that communications and persuasive endeavors should change their language around a bit to better get to the heart of the problems with notions like bothsidesism and the fallacy of the Golden Mean. Relative to vaccine/Covid denialism, acknowledging that true rationality really isn't at issue dovetails nicely with the role of trust in expertise and how that trust either does or doesn't take shape in individuals. In the US, for example, for profit healthcare and our awful medical scheme in general do a lot of harm to the baseline mechanisms that develop medical trust in individuals, which isn't an excuse for denialists' wholesale discarding of commonly accepted medical advice so much as an explanation for why that "trending towards irrationality" quality exists as it does here. I think that's a good point, and it especially addresses the issue of people believing that all beliefs or truth-value statements are equally valid simply because omniscience isn't possible.
It’s frustrating, I read a super interesting paper on belief systems, specifically leaning in to things that are commonly regarded as conspiracy theories. Never been able to find it since and it was years ago I read it. But the kind of topics it was investigating are probably even more pertinent today.
One obvious facet is the world is complex and there’s a lot going on out there. When dovetailed with an emotionally infused wider worldview, many folks intentionally or not will gravitate to something more black and white and simple to, essentially cope with that complexity. Can be god of some form, can be ‘government is bad’, can be ‘capitalism sucks’ or any number of things. And thus from there one can just throw out the things that don’t fit your overall narrative, regardless of how compelling any evidence may be in one specific incidence. The kind of person who just says ‘the military industrial complex’ as an answer to literally every socioeconomic question that can possibly be formulated.
One can of course still have broader overarching worldviews and not do this, it’s not an either-or between having a set of personal values and desired societal values, and being unable to process and account for potentially conflicting information.
As per your example, I think the US medical system is garbage and it’s clearly structurally creating ethical problems as per the incentive structures that pharmaceutical companies have an interest in exploiting. The opioid crisis, which countries with other structures don’t have nearly comparable issues with would seem to bear that out.
On the other hand, it’s a pandemic that’s got global reach. Many countries have totally different structures and aren’t as susceptible to pharma lobbying. There are also many, many other important and powerful lobbying interests in different industries, so it doesn’t seem plausible that Covid restrictions were pushed through by some Big Pharma Cabal. Plus another million reasons why I can think these structures and institutions are problematic, but some of the conclusions people are drawing don’t really make much sense.
Curiously, and I’m merely going off intuition, I reckon there’s a significant crossover between people who like the insurance based healthcare system, railed against the ACA and people now who are skeptical of vaccines.
Another interesting hypothesised subset is people who, for much of their formative years were smart, the smartest person in their peer groups etc all through their formative years. Until they weren’t. Some can deal with this with ease, some struggle with it quite badly. Which makes sense really, if your identity for the years that shape much of your personality is being (relatively) exceptionally smart, and then you’re not, that must be quite tricky to deal with. Anyway one of the theories is, once the inability to be exceptional in one’s chosen field becomes factored in, it doesn’t get processed with the simple, correct explanation and so an alternative is sought to maintain the ego. So some people then go to the headspace that this field is wrong, and become the king/queen of alternative facts rather than a mere subject in a mainstream area.
Bit of a ramble but yeah. People also seem rather terrible at incorporating ideas such as ‘it’s impossible to be entirely unbiased’ and ascertaining levels of it differing
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On August 19 2021 23:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 23:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:59 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:30 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 21:14 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2021 20:50 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
I didnt mean to imply all recommendations by those - who so hubristically unironiccaly refer to themselves as the authorities - have been senseless; but a lot of recommendations have been senseless/incoherent for sure. What I find disturbing and repugnant though is the encouragement of the inappropriate life-attitude of fear and unquestioning submission to ‘authorities’. Which of the recommendations do you consider senseless? Oh boy thats a long list but let me mention what I find most egregious and appalling. the recommendation that healthy people worry about getting sick and getting other healthy people sick. Nothing wrong with soberly encouraging people whose health is significantly compromised (obesity or what have you) to be be cautious and encouraging all to be cautious within reason not to infect them. But this fear-mongering and encouragement of hysteria and neurosis has led to people having an insanely warped sense of how at risk evidence suggests they are which in turn has led to a lot of people (particularly those prone to anxiousness) refraning from activities that promote human thriving: seeing friends/family, going to gym etc etc). To give you a sense of how absurd this got (and if you look at polls from around the western world this anecdote does not seem to be an outlier), I asked my two younger siblings some time ago how many people they thought had died from covid in denmark below the age of 60; they guessed 100 and 150 - at the time i asked the actual number was 3 of all whom confirmed to have compromised health Edit: spelling Do you have the same opinion on drunk driving? You tell me if you find them similar. I think encouraging people to worry disproportionally about, to be hysterical about, to be neurotic about drunk driving goes against whats optimal for human thriving. I dont think there’s anything wrong with soberly and earnestlessly conveying information about how being under the influence of alchohol affects people’s ability to operate cars responsibly. Or talk about sensible ideas/measures within families/friend circles/communities/societies etc as to reduce drunk driving. Nobody is talking about being neurotic about drunk driving. I'll ask bluntly: should drunk driving be allowed or should it be penalised? Allowed by whom? In the name of which authority? Enforced how? Etc Leaving aside such technicalities that people who worship the State dont seem concerned with, let me answer your question this way: let us assume there was a community somewhere and they all voluntarily agreed that within their community there would be punishment for drunk driving, i dont have the slightest problem with this. The society you live in. Stop playing stupid games. I am playing stupid games by thinking there’s a difference between voluntary interaction between peers and subjugation coersion and violence carried out in the name of the State, the Greater Good or whatever psychopathic fucks with god-complexes justify their evil against their fellow men with? Ok bro I wasn't fond of the send people off on rafts into whatever ocean of their choosing but to me it sounds like you should try to self-isolate in some forest and live off the land or whatever. Being Scandinavian, you guys also have the freedom to roam, right? You live in a society. Seeing how you are using the internet, you are clearly comfortable taking advantage of infrastructure created for the benefit of all. This also necessitates accepting some responsibilities, as well as adhering to some rules and regulations agreed upon by a majority of your population. It's entirely fair to disagree with some of these rules, and hell, I'm not gonna judge you if you choose to break some of the rules you disagree the most with. But the way you phrase yourself does nothing but make you sound like a whiny, petulant child. Denmark is not some tyrannical hellscape. Danish police enforcing laws agreed upon by a majority of the Danish population does not entail 'psychopathic fucks with God-complexes committing evil against their fellow men'. I don't care whether you wanna wear a mask or not, but you are not entitled to reap the benefits of society without also adjusting your behavior in some accordance to what the majority wants. Or, I mean, you can do whatever you want. It's just not gonna be free of consequence. Prolly healthy for you to just accept this sooner rather than later.
I mostly agree with you. Where I live is an amazing place relative to most other places and there’s no reason not to count one’s blessings and as best as one can manage embrace reality as is and make the most of it.
However thats not mutually exclusive with believing coersion by itself is suboptimal.
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On August 19 2021 23:39 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 23:24 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:14 JimmiC wrote:On August 19 2021 23:03 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:57 JimmiC wrote:On August 19 2021 22:39 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:24 JimmiC wrote:On August 19 2021 22:16 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:13 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 20:52 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
Didnt say it were; just as I didnt say it weren’t Yes, you did. You said it warmed your heart to see people not wearing masks despite the mandate, that it was beautiful. Then you added that now most people ignore the most moronic of mandates. The change in behaviour you brought up was not wearing masks on public transport, which heavily implies that this is the measure you had in mind. Don't pretend this is not what you've said. We're not dumb, mate. Theres a difference between mandate and recommendation. There are a lot of recommendations (inc masks) i dont feel strongly about that would be abhorrent in mandate form Edit: what i wrote warmed my heart was the hysteria decreasing Then explain fully what you mean with "hysteria decreasing". It is basically a click baity title, now you to explain who was hysterical and why they were being hysterical. Sure i dont mind explaining since you ask so politely. Irregardless of masks being a sensible recommendation or not (i have no strong opinion about that), people disregarding the mandate is a sign that people are less fearful, less hysterical which i believe to be a good thing I think the issue is just misuse of words than. Hysterical would be being affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion. Wearing a mask during a pandemic would not be extreme and on top of that choosing to wear one would be very controlled. Someone could get hysterical and not wear a max and yell and scream about it. Or someone could become hysterical at someone refusing a mask. More people breaking a mandate would show less control not more and some would say a extreme emotion to break that rule. I don't think you example of a train says anything about hysteria, but if it does it is the opposite of what you are saying. Also when I looked up mask mandates in Denmark it says that in June the rules changed to wear masks were only mandatory on public transport during rush hours. So really it is likely that people were following the rules which given the spread seem very sensible. Nothing hysterical from the people or the government. It might be your own biases coloring your interpretations. This happened one week before that mandate was changed. At the time masks were mandated whenever standing up once you enter a station. We may read different things into the word hysteria, I suppose. If unreasonable disproportionate neurosis flies better with you, i dont mind going with that. You randomly today brought up something from 2 months ago? It happened on June 14th. Come on now stop with the BS. And we don't read different things, there is definitions of words if you use the correct ones people understand you, if you make up your own they don't. And that is not on them. I suppose it wasn’t randomly - i was skimming through what you guys were writing about and thought i’d share my good moment. If you believe i made it up, thats okay - my mood isnt bothered by that. Going by dictionary definitions, describing emotionally charged behaviour that seems excessive or out of control as hysteria is pretty standard, isnt it? You may disagree with the implied assessment with my usage of the word, but im not using the word incorrectly. Except the whole point is that choosing not to wear a mask when mandated would not show that people have more control of their emotions. To believe this you need to believe something you have adamantly said you do not believe multiple times. So this is your quote: Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 18:44 Amumoman wrote:
Took the metrotrain for the first time in a long time here in Denmark. There was still a mask mandate in place but 9/10 didnt wear one. Warms my heart to see the hysteria on the retreate. If your event actually happened at all, or months ago, the above is worded as if it just happened. The above 2 points is why almost everyone finds you disingenuous. And I bet quite a few find you very familiar as well. If you think the pandemic is fake and masks are stupid or whatever just say it, own your beliefs don't dance around with made up anecdotes.
Honest cant tell what your point is in the first part here.
As for the second part, yes i could have went with more abstract and boring ways of conveying the notion that i think coersion is less optimal than persuasion and the notion that encouragement of fear and worry to nudge people into taking certain measures is less optimal than earnestly soberly encouraging people to consider measures
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On August 19 2021 23:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 23:39 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 23:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:59 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:52 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 22:30 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 19 2021 21:14 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 20:54 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Which of the recommendations do you consider senseless? Oh boy thats a long list but let me mention what I find most egregious and appalling. the recommendation that healthy people worry about getting sick and getting other healthy people sick. Nothing wrong with soberly encouraging people whose health is significantly compromised (obesity or what have you) to be be cautious and encouraging all to be cautious within reason not to infect them. But this fear-mongering and encouragement of hysteria and neurosis has led to people having an insanely warped sense of how at risk evidence suggests they are which in turn has led to a lot of people (particularly those prone to anxiousness) refraning from activities that promote human thriving: seeing friends/family, going to gym etc etc). To give you a sense of how absurd this got (and if you look at polls from around the western world this anecdote does not seem to be an outlier), I asked my two younger siblings some time ago how many people they thought had died from covid in denmark below the age of 60; they guessed 100 and 150 - at the time i asked the actual number was 3 of all whom confirmed to have compromised health Edit: spelling Do you have the same opinion on drunk driving? You tell me if you find them similar. I think encouraging people to worry disproportionally about, to be hysterical about, to be neurotic about drunk driving goes against whats optimal for human thriving. I dont think there’s anything wrong with soberly and earnestlessly conveying information about how being under the influence of alchohol affects people’s ability to operate cars responsibly. Or talk about sensible ideas/measures within families/friend circles/communities/societies etc as to reduce drunk driving. Nobody is talking about being neurotic about drunk driving. I'll ask bluntly: should drunk driving be allowed or should it be penalised? Allowed by whom? In the name of which authority? Enforced how? Etc Leaving aside such technicalities that people who worship the State dont seem concerned with, let me answer your question this way: let us assume there was a community somewhere and they all voluntarily agreed that within their community there would be punishment for drunk driving, i dont have the slightest problem with this. The society you live in. Stop playing stupid games. I am playing stupid games by thinking there’s a difference between voluntary interaction between peers and subjugation coersion and violence carried out in the name of the State, the Greater Good or whatever psychopathic fucks with god-complexes justify their evil against their fellow men with? Ok bro Well, you are justifying your own evil with "freedom". He started from a basic assumption of being entitled to freedom and never justified it in his own head. I remember similar smooth-brain dialectics in freshman philosophy classes.
I think this is a misreading of what I wrote. Freedom is good is my assumption; all else being equal.
As for entitlement, i think buddha got it right when he saif people are entitled to only two things in life: death and suffering
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On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 21:42 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 18:44 Amumoman wrote:
Took the metrotrain for the first time in a long time here in Denmark. There was still a mask mandate in place but 9/10 didnt wear one. Warms my heart to see the hysteria on the retreate. Aside from masks and stuff, I'm always smiling if I read people taking a train! And I mean an amusing "welcome to the club" smile! I think 2020 from around mid March to a little bit of May I admit, I took the car to get to work (no, I had no homeoffice). But after that, "back to normal" and taking the train every weekday to this day! (well some days I took the car, but those are minor) I'm not sure, what is the big thing about that...? Can someone link me to an article or anything about "someone with Covid took a train, now 100 people are infected!" Because I don't know any and we are basically "back and live" with the current discussion of being afraid of things that are not dangerous! Literally the beginning of the covid pandemic was from situations like this one: "Of the 3711 people onboard, around 700 were eventually infected with the virus (567 out of 2,666 passengers and 145 out of 1,045 crew)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess Also: "Researchers who investigated a case of community outbreak in Zhejiang province, China, found that a COVID-19 positive person has infected at least 23 persons who rode a bus with him to a religious event in less than two hours. This happened before wearing face mask was made mandatory as a precautionary measure against the dreaded SARS-CoV-2 virus." https://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/covid-positive-person-infects-23-bus-passengers-in-china-is-coronavirus-disease-really-airborne/646413 Same scenario: "When 67 Buddhist passengers and their driver boarded a bus in Ningbo, China, on January 19, 2020, it's likely that only one person among them was incubating the coronavirus. None knew or expected they'd get ill that day, so no one was wearing a mask." https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-bus-study-virus-spreads-beyond-6-feet-from-patient-2020-9 So yes, of course it can happen. To deny that it could happen would deny that covid can spread within confined areas, airborne. There's really no downside to just playing it safe and masking up. Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense ) proof! That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas. If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples. And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing. If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks.
First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway.
Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated.
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On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 21:42 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 18:44 Amumoman wrote:
Took the metrotrain for the first time in a long time here in Denmark. There was still a mask mandate in place but 9/10 didnt wear one. Warms my heart to see the hysteria on the retreate. Aside from masks and stuff, I'm always smiling if I read people taking a train! And I mean an amusing "welcome to the club" smile! I think 2020 from around mid March to a little bit of May I admit, I took the car to get to work (no, I had no homeoffice). But after that, "back to normal" and taking the train every weekday to this day! (well some days I took the car, but those are minor) I'm not sure, what is the big thing about that...? Can someone link me to an article or anything about "someone with Covid took a train, now 100 people are infected!" Because I don't know any and we are basically "back and live" with the current discussion of being afraid of things that are not dangerous! Literally the beginning of the covid pandemic was from situations like this one: "Of the 3711 people onboard, around 700 were eventually infected with the virus (567 out of 2,666 passengers and 145 out of 1,045 crew)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess Also: "Researchers who investigated a case of community outbreak in Zhejiang province, China, found that a COVID-19 positive person has infected at least 23 persons who rode a bus with him to a religious event in less than two hours. This happened before wearing face mask was made mandatory as a precautionary measure against the dreaded SARS-CoV-2 virus." https://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/covid-positive-person-infects-23-bus-passengers-in-china-is-coronavirus-disease-really-airborne/646413 Same scenario: "When 67 Buddhist passengers and their driver boarded a bus in Ningbo, China, on January 19, 2020, it's likely that only one person among them was incubating the coronavirus. None knew or expected they'd get ill that day, so no one was wearing a mask." https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-bus-study-virus-spreads-beyond-6-feet-from-patient-2020-9 So yes, of course it can happen. To deny that it could happen would deny that covid can spread within confined areas, airborne. There's really no downside to just playing it safe and masking up. Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense ) proof! That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas. If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples. And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing. If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated.
Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data.
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On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:
First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway.
Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated.
For the purpose of understanding mask efficacy I can provide you a link. Masks do work - both in lab settings and in everyday life. Here's the link to a comment I wrote summarizing the findings, including the link to the study:
https://tl.net/forum/general/556693-coronavirus-and-you?page=407#8135
In regards to the mask mandates: are you generally opposed to all government mandates of all kinds? Or are there any government mandates out there that you agree with?
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On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 21:42 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 18:44 Amumoman wrote:
Took the metrotrain for the first time in a long time here in Denmark. There was still a mask mandate in place but 9/10 didnt wear one. Warms my heart to see the hysteria on the retreate. Aside from masks and stuff, I'm always smiling if I read people taking a train! And I mean an amusing "welcome to the club" smile! I think 2020 from around mid March to a little bit of May I admit, I took the car to get to work (no, I had no homeoffice). But after that, "back to normal" and taking the train every weekday to this day! (well some days I took the car, but those are minor) I'm not sure, what is the big thing about that...? Can someone link me to an article or anything about "someone with Covid took a train, now 100 people are infected!" Because I don't know any and we are basically "back and live" with the current discussion of being afraid of things that are not dangerous! Literally the beginning of the covid pandemic was from situations like this one: "Of the 3711 people onboard, around 700 were eventually infected with the virus (567 out of 2,666 passengers and 145 out of 1,045 crew)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess Also: "Researchers who investigated a case of community outbreak in Zhejiang province, China, found that a COVID-19 positive person has infected at least 23 persons who rode a bus with him to a religious event in less than two hours. This happened before wearing face mask was made mandatory as a precautionary measure against the dreaded SARS-CoV-2 virus." https://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/covid-positive-person-infects-23-bus-passengers-in-china-is-coronavirus-disease-really-airborne/646413 Same scenario: "When 67 Buddhist passengers and their driver boarded a bus in Ningbo, China, on January 19, 2020, it's likely that only one person among them was incubating the coronavirus. None knew or expected they'd get ill that day, so no one was wearing a mask." https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-bus-study-virus-spreads-beyond-6-feet-from-patient-2020-9 So yes, of course it can happen. To deny that it could happen would deny that covid can spread within confined areas, airborne. There's really no downside to just playing it safe and masking up. Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense ) proof! That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas. If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples. And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing. If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data.
I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate.
If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war.
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EPT
