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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On August 20 2021 06:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 06:19 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 05:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 02:44 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:[quote] Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby  But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense  ) proof! That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas. If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples. And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing. If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate. If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war. Do you feel this way about every law? Every law is coercive, by definition. On August 20 2021 02:48 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:[quote] Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense ) proof! That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas. If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples. And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing. If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. Oh yes the experts. Never ever in the history of mankind has anyone who professed to be an expert or who was proclaimed to be an expert been wrong about anything. Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I think this is the best way to explain my perspective: imagine your relationship with someone - sibling, lover, friend, school mate, whichever - when the relationship is going well, it’s just flowing; if friction happens, you might find yourself asking the other to adjust their behaviour - the you negotiate that one way or another; but if the relationship starts really degenerating, you are probably going to agree to rules (no phones at dinnertable!, as an example). If the relationship degenerates even further globally or locally (like at the dinner table), one part may start demanding adherence to some rules of the other. Like the taosist notion that the Way is better than virtues which in turn can degenerate into laws etc. My point is simply this: if you’re resorting to coersion, something’s gone awfully wrong somewhere - now it may very well be that we individually and collectively are simply not capable of interacting more civilised with each other than what is for now but let us not pretend the lesser evil is not evil (if the word evil bothers you, feel free to replace it with inappropriate or suboptimal or whichever). As for scientific consensuses, lets be a little more epistemologically sophisticated than ‘science is settled’, shall we? Science is a method, not a set of dogmas. I don't know how well the relationship analogy works, because you as an individual don't get to privately renegotiate your country's laws any time you're annoyed by them. I suppose you can leave the country if you want to "break up" with Denmark, but there will always be a set of rules you'll need to follow, wherever you go. That's the reality of the situation, and I suppose as an anarchist you don't like that, but the reality of the situation is that in a society, you're not the only person that matters. Everyone has to put up with some level of coercion for the community to run smoothly and safely. And keep in mind that this terrible regulation - the one that you "take as a declaration of war" - is simply asking you to wear a mask in public during an infectious disease pandemic. Is that the hill you really want to die on (pun intended)? Also, I'm not willing to accept your non-answer to my last question about whether or not you have a scientific justification for why you disagree with the experts (saying that the science isn't settled is a cop-out, because it is settled in the basic sense that we know that masks and vaccines significantly protect us from covid infections), so I'll ask it again: Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I feel like this all just boils down to you disliking being told what to do, even if it's barely even a personal inconvenience that can save countless lives. Huge upside, and basically no downside. It sounds selfish and childish. Joke’s on you. Im happily living in a state of anarchy already although i often encounter mad people who regurgitate some childish nonsense about State Law Obey Adhere yadada i mostly just sigh or laugh at this and at the end of the day i get along with people just fine even if i think a lot of them are acting out nonsense As for scientific and medical consensuses, you’re free to listen and trust to whoever or whichever institution you please. Except you're not. You're living in a country with laws and law enforcers. You're not living in an anarchist state. And I'll acknowledge your second non-answer to my repeated question as a concession that you don't have a legitimate science-based or medical-based argument for hating on the mask mandate. You're just ticked off that you're being told what to do.
I think he might be doing his best to convince everyone that Mohdoo’s island exclusion proposal isn’t so bad after all.
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Norway28736 Posts
On August 20 2021 06:19 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 05:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 02:44 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:[quote] Literally the beginning of the covid pandemic was from situations like this one: "Of the 3711 people onboard, around 700 were eventually infected with the virus (567 out of 2,666 passengers and 145 out of 1,045 crew)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess Also: "Researchers who investigated a case of community outbreak in Zhejiang province, China, found that a COVID-19 positive person has infected at least 23 persons who rode a bus with him to a religious event in less than two hours. This happened before wearing face mask was made mandatory as a precautionary measure against the dreaded SARS-CoV-2 virus." https://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/covid-positive-person-infects-23-bus-passengers-in-china-is-coronavirus-disease-really-airborne/646413 Same scenario: "When 67 Buddhist passengers and their driver boarded a bus in Ningbo, China, on January 19, 2020, it's likely that only one person among them was incubating the coronavirus. None knew or expected they'd get ill that day, so no one was wearing a mask." https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-bus-study-virus-spreads-beyond-6-feet-from-patient-2020-9 So yes, of course it can happen. To deny that it could happen would deny that covid can spread within confined areas, airborne. There's really no downside to just playing it safe and masking up. Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense ) proof! That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas. If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples. And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing. If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate. If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war. Do you feel this way about every law? Every law is coercive, by definition. On August 20 2021 02:48 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 19 2021 23:22 Geisterkarle wrote:On August 19 2021 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:[quote] Literally the beginning of the covid pandemic was from situations like this one: "Of the 3711 people onboard, around 700 were eventually infected with the virus (567 out of 2,666 passengers and 145 out of 1,045 crew)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess Also: "Researchers who investigated a case of community outbreak in Zhejiang province, China, found that a COVID-19 positive person has infected at least 23 persons who rode a bus with him to a religious event in less than two hours. This happened before wearing face mask was made mandatory as a precautionary measure against the dreaded SARS-CoV-2 virus." https://www.timesnownews.com/health/article/covid-positive-person-infects-23-bus-passengers-in-china-is-coronavirus-disease-really-airborne/646413 Same scenario: "When 67 Buddhist passengers and their driver boarded a bus in Ningbo, China, on January 19, 2020, it's likely that only one person among them was incubating the coronavirus. None knew or expected they'd get ill that day, so no one was wearing a mask." https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-bus-study-virus-spreads-beyond-6-feet-from-patient-2020-9 So yes, of course it can happen. To deny that it could happen would deny that covid can spread within confined areas, airborne. There's really no downside to just playing it safe and masking up. Those are quite few occurences and the Diamond Princess was basically in the "before times" and probably with partys and events and not just sitting on your chair and waiting for your station - but I admit, I don't know, what _you_ do on a train... everyone their own hobby But I never said anything about masks in my text! So, just an addon: Find me an article where people with masks infected each other on a train/bus? (or just for my atheist-belief something without a religious touch *g* those idiots are superspreading all over the world! There was the big event in South-Korea and even here in Germany we had one directly linked to some christian-sect...) It's actually "advertisement" for masks! But also for not being afraid to use a train! I and millions of commuters are living (in a very literally sense ) proof! That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas. If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples. And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing. If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. Oh yes the experts. Never ever in the history of mankind has anyone who professed to be an expert or who was proclaimed to be an expert been wrong about anything. Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I think this is the best way to explain my perspective: imagine your relationship with someone - sibling, lover, friend, school mate, whichever - when the relationship is going well, it’s just flowing; if friction happens, you might find yourself asking the other to adjust their behaviour - the you negotiate that one way or another; but if the relationship starts really degenerating, you are probably going to agree to rules (no phones at dinnertable!, as an example). If the relationship degenerates even further globally or locally (like at the dinner table), one part may start demanding adherence to some rules of the other. Like the taosist notion that the Way is better than virtues which in turn can degenerate into laws etc. My point is simply this: if you’re resorting to coersion, something’s gone awfully wrong somewhere - now it may very well be that we individually and collectively are simply not capable of interacting more civilised with each other than what is for now but let us not pretend the lesser evil is not evil (if the word evil bothers you, feel free to replace it with inappropriate or suboptimal or whichever). As for scientific consensuses, lets be a little more epistemologically sophisticated than ‘science is settled’, shall we? Science is a method, not a set of dogmas. I don't know how well the relationship analogy works, because you as an individual don't get to privately renegotiate your country's laws any time you're annoyed by them. I suppose you can leave the country if you want to "break up" with Denmark, but there will always be a set of rules you'll need to follow, wherever you go. That's the reality of the situation, and I suppose as an anarchist you don't like that, but the reality of the situation is that in a society, you're not the only person that matters. Everyone has to put up with some level of coercion for the community to run smoothly and safely. And keep in mind that this terrible regulation - the one that you "take as a declaration of war" - is simply asking you to wear a mask in public during an infectious disease pandemic. Is that the hill you really want to die on (pun intended)? Also, I'm not willing to accept your non-answer to my last question about whether or not you have a scientific justification for why you disagree with the experts (saying that the science isn't settled is a cop-out, because it is settled in the basic sense that we know that masks and vaccines significantly protect us from covid infections), so I'll ask it again: Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I feel like this all just boils down to you disliking being told what to do, even if it's barely even a personal inconvenience that can save countless lives. Huge upside, and basically no downside. It sounds selfish and childish. Joke’s on you. Im happily living in a state of anarchy already although i often encounter mad people who regurgitate some childish nonsense about State Law Obey Adhere yadada i mostly just sigh or laugh at this and at the end of the day i get along with people just fine even if i think a lot of them are acting out nonsense As for scientific and medical consensuses, you’re free to listen and trust to whoever or whichever institution you please.
Do you live in Christiania?  (For the Americans, it's actually a pretty sweet place to visit. Not something I want to model greater society based on, but I've been there a couple times. We have a similar although much smaller place in Trondheim and I'm actually quite fond of the project.
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On August 20 2021 06:43 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 06:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 06:19 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 05:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 02:44 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas.
If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples.
And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing.
If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate. If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war. Do you feel this way about every law? Every law is coercive, by definition. On August 20 2021 02:48 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas.
If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples.
And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing.
If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. Oh yes the experts. Never ever in the history of mankind has anyone who professed to be an expert or who was proclaimed to be an expert been wrong about anything. Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I think this is the best way to explain my perspective: imagine your relationship with someone - sibling, lover, friend, school mate, whichever - when the relationship is going well, it’s just flowing; if friction happens, you might find yourself asking the other to adjust their behaviour - the you negotiate that one way or another; but if the relationship starts really degenerating, you are probably going to agree to rules (no phones at dinnertable!, as an example). If the relationship degenerates even further globally or locally (like at the dinner table), one part may start demanding adherence to some rules of the other. Like the taosist notion that the Way is better than virtues which in turn can degenerate into laws etc. My point is simply this: if you’re resorting to coersion, something’s gone awfully wrong somewhere - now it may very well be that we individually and collectively are simply not capable of interacting more civilised with each other than what is for now but let us not pretend the lesser evil is not evil (if the word evil bothers you, feel free to replace it with inappropriate or suboptimal or whichever). As for scientific consensuses, lets be a little more epistemologically sophisticated than ‘science is settled’, shall we? Science is a method, not a set of dogmas. I don't know how well the relationship analogy works, because you as an individual don't get to privately renegotiate your country's laws any time you're annoyed by them. I suppose you can leave the country if you want to "break up" with Denmark, but there will always be a set of rules you'll need to follow, wherever you go. That's the reality of the situation, and I suppose as an anarchist you don't like that, but the reality of the situation is that in a society, you're not the only person that matters. Everyone has to put up with some level of coercion for the community to run smoothly and safely. And keep in mind that this terrible regulation - the one that you "take as a declaration of war" - is simply asking you to wear a mask in public during an infectious disease pandemic. Is that the hill you really want to die on (pun intended)? Also, I'm not willing to accept your non-answer to my last question about whether or not you have a scientific justification for why you disagree with the experts (saying that the science isn't settled is a cop-out, because it is settled in the basic sense that we know that masks and vaccines significantly protect us from covid infections), so I'll ask it again: Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I feel like this all just boils down to you disliking being told what to do, even if it's barely even a personal inconvenience that can save countless lives. Huge upside, and basically no downside. It sounds selfish and childish. Joke’s on you. Im happily living in a state of anarchy already although i often encounter mad people who regurgitate some childish nonsense about State Law Obey Adhere yadada i mostly just sigh or laugh at this and at the end of the day i get along with people just fine even if i think a lot of them are acting out nonsense As for scientific and medical consensuses, you’re free to listen and trust to whoever or whichever institution you please. Except you're not. You're living in a country with laws and law enforcers. You're not living in an anarchist state. And I'll acknowledge your second non-answer to my repeated question as a concession that you don't have a legitimate science-based or medical-based argument for hating on the mask mandate. You're just ticked off that you're being told what to do. I think he might be doing his best to convince everyone that Mohdoo’s island exclusion proposal isn’t so bad after all.
Everyone is like "tHeY aReN't ThAt BaD!!111 what about sympathy!?!?! WAHHHH" and then they spend a few minutes with reality.
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On August 19 2021 05:45 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 05:39 Gorsameth wrote:
Covid is not 100% fatal. Vaccines largely work to reduce it further
So if you actually cared about 'less deaths' then killing all the anti-vaxxers is the wrong choice since only a small number of them would die from Covid and a tiny tiny fraction of vaccinated might.
Your ignoring 'ifs', your ignoring chances, your ignoring social measures just so you can say "fuck it Trolly problem, lets machine gun them down".
I'm done trying to have a discussion with you. I'm off to play some Humankind. It doesn't need to be 100% fatal for us to accurately model # of deaths per month. I don't think you are understanding how modeling works. There is no if. We can be verrrrry sure the number of people that will die. We don't know which ones, but we know how to prevent the deaths. We don't need to know who will die in order to accurately predict the total loss of life. This is all knowable. Pretending this is fuzzy and unknowable is cowardly IMO. We should be willing to face the cold reality of the ethical considerations that come with consciousness. Also, for the record, I am not advocating for directly killing anti-vax. President Mohdoo's proposed solution: People have 2 options 1) Be vaccinated 2) Be given a boat and dropped off 5 miles away from the coast of the pacific ocean. Never allowed to return In this way, we allow anti-vaxers to more fully adopt their "let nature decide" perspective. Edit: No problem, I appreciate your thoughts. Til next time!
Why reinvent the wheel? Just do it the same way US applied the smallpox vaccines back in the days. Make it mandatory by law unless you have a valid medical condition. If you refuse to take it you go to jail. When you go to jail, well, every jail have a mandatory vaccine program that you have to go through.
See? You guys already know how to do this.
It was crazy successful though and I am very happy for that today. Perhaps you could skip the occasional burning of the houses of the sick (and often poor). That part didn't really help that much.
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On August 20 2021 06:43 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 06:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 06:19 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 05:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 02:44 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas.
If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples.
And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing.
If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate. If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war. Do you feel this way about every law? Every law is coercive, by definition. On August 20 2021 02:48 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:On August 19 2021 23:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
That response can't possibly be aimed at me lol. Amumoman was claiming that asking people to wear masks on public transportation is just creating meaningless hysteria dictated by "psychopathic fucks", even though we know that's false. We know that not wearing masks significantly raises the chance of spreading infection within confined areas.
If you don't like those examples of unmasked groups spreading infection, go find other ones. Not hard to Google search for more examples.
And I don't understand the reference to what "_you_" do on a train, but covid can travel through the air. Breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, etc. are more than enough to spread the infection. Especially in confined areas that can't accommodate reasonable social distancing.
If you want to take a train, go for it. That doesn't mean you can't simultaneously be aware that other people around you may be infected, or that you can't be hopeful that other people are vaccinated. It doesn't mean passengers shouldn't wear masks. First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway. Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. Oh yes the experts. Never ever in the history of mankind has anyone who professed to be an expert or who was proclaimed to be an expert been wrong about anything. Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I think this is the best way to explain my perspective: imagine your relationship with someone - sibling, lover, friend, school mate, whichever - when the relationship is going well, it’s just flowing; if friction happens, you might find yourself asking the other to adjust their behaviour - the you negotiate that one way or another; but if the relationship starts really degenerating, you are probably going to agree to rules (no phones at dinnertable!, as an example). If the relationship degenerates even further globally or locally (like at the dinner table), one part may start demanding adherence to some rules of the other. Like the taosist notion that the Way is better than virtues which in turn can degenerate into laws etc. My point is simply this: if you’re resorting to coersion, something’s gone awfully wrong somewhere - now it may very well be that we individually and collectively are simply not capable of interacting more civilised with each other than what is for now but let us not pretend the lesser evil is not evil (if the word evil bothers you, feel free to replace it with inappropriate or suboptimal or whichever). As for scientific consensuses, lets be a little more epistemologically sophisticated than ‘science is settled’, shall we? Science is a method, not a set of dogmas. I don't know how well the relationship analogy works, because you as an individual don't get to privately renegotiate your country's laws any time you're annoyed by them. I suppose you can leave the country if you want to "break up" with Denmark, but there will always be a set of rules you'll need to follow, wherever you go. That's the reality of the situation, and I suppose as an anarchist you don't like that, but the reality of the situation is that in a society, you're not the only person that matters. Everyone has to put up with some level of coercion for the community to run smoothly and safely. And keep in mind that this terrible regulation - the one that you "take as a declaration of war" - is simply asking you to wear a mask in public during an infectious disease pandemic. Is that the hill you really want to die on (pun intended)? Also, I'm not willing to accept your non-answer to my last question about whether or not you have a scientific justification for why you disagree with the experts (saying that the science isn't settled is a cop-out, because it is settled in the basic sense that we know that masks and vaccines significantly protect us from covid infections), so I'll ask it again: Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I feel like this all just boils down to you disliking being told what to do, even if it's barely even a personal inconvenience that can save countless lives. Huge upside, and basically no downside. It sounds selfish and childish. Joke’s on you. Im happily living in a state of anarchy already although i often encounter mad people who regurgitate some childish nonsense about State Law Obey Adhere yadada i mostly just sigh or laugh at this and at the end of the day i get along with people just fine even if i think a lot of them are acting out nonsense As for scientific and medical consensuses, you’re free to listen and trust to whoever or whichever institution you please. Except you're not. You're living in a country with laws and law enforcers. You're not living in an anarchist state. And I'll acknowledge your second non-answer to my repeated question as a concession that you don't have a legitimate science-based or medical-based argument for hating on the mask mandate. You're just ticked off that you're being told what to do. I think he might be doing his best to convince everyone that Mohdoo’s island exclusion proposal isn’t so bad after all.
That gave me quite a chuckle
On August 20 2021 07:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 06:43 farvacola wrote:On August 20 2021 06:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 06:19 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 05:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 02:44 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway.
Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate. If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war. Do you feel this way about every law? Every law is coercive, by definition. On August 20 2021 02:48 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway.
Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. Oh yes the experts. Never ever in the history of mankind has anyone who professed to be an expert or who was proclaimed to be an expert been wrong about anything. Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I think this is the best way to explain my perspective: imagine your relationship with someone - sibling, lover, friend, school mate, whichever - when the relationship is going well, it’s just flowing; if friction happens, you might find yourself asking the other to adjust their behaviour - the you negotiate that one way or another; but if the relationship starts really degenerating, you are probably going to agree to rules (no phones at dinnertable!, as an example). If the relationship degenerates even further globally or locally (like at the dinner table), one part may start demanding adherence to some rules of the other. Like the taosist notion that the Way is better than virtues which in turn can degenerate into laws etc. My point is simply this: if you’re resorting to coersion, something’s gone awfully wrong somewhere - now it may very well be that we individually and collectively are simply not capable of interacting more civilised with each other than what is for now but let us not pretend the lesser evil is not evil (if the word evil bothers you, feel free to replace it with inappropriate or suboptimal or whichever). As for scientific consensuses, lets be a little more epistemologically sophisticated than ‘science is settled’, shall we? Science is a method, not a set of dogmas. I don't know how well the relationship analogy works, because you as an individual don't get to privately renegotiate your country's laws any time you're annoyed by them. I suppose you can leave the country if you want to "break up" with Denmark, but there will always be a set of rules you'll need to follow, wherever you go. That's the reality of the situation, and I suppose as an anarchist you don't like that, but the reality of the situation is that in a society, you're not the only person that matters. Everyone has to put up with some level of coercion for the community to run smoothly and safely. And keep in mind that this terrible regulation - the one that you "take as a declaration of war" - is simply asking you to wear a mask in public during an infectious disease pandemic. Is that the hill you really want to die on (pun intended)? Also, I'm not willing to accept your non-answer to my last question about whether or not you have a scientific justification for why you disagree with the experts (saying that the science isn't settled is a cop-out, because it is settled in the basic sense that we know that masks and vaccines significantly protect us from covid infections), so I'll ask it again: Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I feel like this all just boils down to you disliking being told what to do, even if it's barely even a personal inconvenience that can save countless lives. Huge upside, and basically no downside. It sounds selfish and childish. Joke’s on you. Im happily living in a state of anarchy already although i often encounter mad people who regurgitate some childish nonsense about State Law Obey Adhere yadada i mostly just sigh or laugh at this and at the end of the day i get along with people just fine even if i think a lot of them are acting out nonsense As for scientific and medical consensuses, you’re free to listen and trust to whoever or whichever institution you please. Except you're not. You're living in a country with laws and law enforcers. You're not living in an anarchist state. And I'll acknowledge your second non-answer to my repeated question as a concession that you don't have a legitimate science-based or medical-based argument for hating on the mask mandate. You're just ticked off that you're being told what to do. I think he might be doing his best to convince everyone that Mohdoo’s island exclusion proposal isn’t so bad after all. Everyone is like "tHeY aReN't ThAt BaD!!111 what about sympathy!?!?! WAHHHH" and then they spend a few minutes with reality.
To be fair, I don't think Amumoman is the average person, and most of us probably believe he's not "real" either lol.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 20 2021 08:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 06:43 farvacola wrote:On August 20 2021 06:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 06:19 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 05:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 02:44 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway.
Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate. If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war. Do you feel this way about every law? Every law is coercive, by definition. On August 20 2021 02:48 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 01:45 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
First of all, a mandate is not a recommendation. I never argued one way or the other whether masks are effective at preventing spread - the fuck do I know about that anyway.
Personally i am not bothered by wearing a mask all that much - what bothers me is it being mandated. Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. Oh yes the experts. Never ever in the history of mankind has anyone who professed to be an expert or who was proclaimed to be an expert been wrong about anything. Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I think this is the best way to explain my perspective: imagine your relationship with someone - sibling, lover, friend, school mate, whichever - when the relationship is going well, it’s just flowing; if friction happens, you might find yourself asking the other to adjust their behaviour - the you negotiate that one way or another; but if the relationship starts really degenerating, you are probably going to agree to rules (no phones at dinnertable!, as an example). If the relationship degenerates even further globally or locally (like at the dinner table), one part may start demanding adherence to some rules of the other. Like the taosist notion that the Way is better than virtues which in turn can degenerate into laws etc. My point is simply this: if you’re resorting to coersion, something’s gone awfully wrong somewhere - now it may very well be that we individually and collectively are simply not capable of interacting more civilised with each other than what is for now but let us not pretend the lesser evil is not evil (if the word evil bothers you, feel free to replace it with inappropriate or suboptimal or whichever). As for scientific consensuses, lets be a little more epistemologically sophisticated than ‘science is settled’, shall we? Science is a method, not a set of dogmas. I don't know how well the relationship analogy works, because you as an individual don't get to privately renegotiate your country's laws any time you're annoyed by them. I suppose you can leave the country if you want to "break up" with Denmark, but there will always be a set of rules you'll need to follow, wherever you go. That's the reality of the situation, and I suppose as an anarchist you don't like that, but the reality of the situation is that in a society, you're not the only person that matters. Everyone has to put up with some level of coercion for the community to run smoothly and safely. And keep in mind that this terrible regulation - the one that you "take as a declaration of war" - is simply asking you to wear a mask in public during an infectious disease pandemic. Is that the hill you really want to die on (pun intended)? Also, I'm not willing to accept your non-answer to my last question about whether or not you have a scientific justification for why you disagree with the experts (saying that the science isn't settled is a cop-out, because it is settled in the basic sense that we know that masks and vaccines significantly protect us from covid infections), so I'll ask it again: Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I feel like this all just boils down to you disliking being told what to do, even if it's barely even a personal inconvenience that can save countless lives. Huge upside, and basically no downside. It sounds selfish and childish. Joke’s on you. Im happily living in a state of anarchy already although i often encounter mad people who regurgitate some childish nonsense about State Law Obey Adhere yadada i mostly just sigh or laugh at this and at the end of the day i get along with people just fine even if i think a lot of them are acting out nonsense As for scientific and medical consensuses, you’re free to listen and trust to whoever or whichever institution you please. Except you're not. You're living in a country with laws and law enforcers. You're not living in an anarchist state. And I'll acknowledge your second non-answer to my repeated question as a concession that you don't have a legitimate science-based or medical-based argument for hating on the mask mandate. You're just ticked off that you're being told what to do. I think he might be doing his best to convince everyone that Mohdoo’s island exclusion proposal isn’t so bad after all. That gave me quite a chuckle Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 07:20 Mohdoo wrote:On August 20 2021 06:43 farvacola wrote:On August 20 2021 06:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 06:19 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 05:07 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 20 2021 02:44 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. I find coersion distasteful and inappropriate. If you want to live out a slave fetish where you outsource your sense-making to technocrats, fine by me. But if you try to force this on me, I’ll take it as a declaration of war. Do you feel this way about every law? Every law is coercive, by definition. On August 20 2021 02:48 Amumoman wrote:On August 20 2021 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Why does it bother you that wearing a mask in public is being mandated? I assume it's because you don't trust the people making the mandates (given all the names you've called them), despite the fact that the leaders are justifying this mandate by citing the scientific and medical experts and their data. Oh yes the experts. Never ever in the history of mankind has anyone who professed to be an expert or who was proclaimed to be an expert been wrong about anything. Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I think this is the best way to explain my perspective: imagine your relationship with someone - sibling, lover, friend, school mate, whichever - when the relationship is going well, it’s just flowing; if friction happens, you might find yourself asking the other to adjust their behaviour - the you negotiate that one way or another; but if the relationship starts really degenerating, you are probably going to agree to rules (no phones at dinnertable!, as an example). If the relationship degenerates even further globally or locally (like at the dinner table), one part may start demanding adherence to some rules of the other. Like the taosist notion that the Way is better than virtues which in turn can degenerate into laws etc. My point is simply this: if you’re resorting to coersion, something’s gone awfully wrong somewhere - now it may very well be that we individually and collectively are simply not capable of interacting more civilised with each other than what is for now but let us not pretend the lesser evil is not evil (if the word evil bothers you, feel free to replace it with inappropriate or suboptimal or whichever). As for scientific consensuses, lets be a little more epistemologically sophisticated than ‘science is settled’, shall we? Science is a method, not a set of dogmas. I don't know how well the relationship analogy works, because you as an individual don't get to privately renegotiate your country's laws any time you're annoyed by them. I suppose you can leave the country if you want to "break up" with Denmark, but there will always be a set of rules you'll need to follow, wherever you go. That's the reality of the situation, and I suppose as an anarchist you don't like that, but the reality of the situation is that in a society, you're not the only person that matters. Everyone has to put up with some level of coercion for the community to run smoothly and safely. And keep in mind that this terrible regulation - the one that you "take as a declaration of war" - is simply asking you to wear a mask in public during an infectious disease pandemic. Is that the hill you really want to die on (pun intended)? Also, I'm not willing to accept your non-answer to my last question about whether or not you have a scientific justification for why you disagree with the experts (saying that the science isn't settled is a cop-out, because it is settled in the basic sense that we know that masks and vaccines significantly protect us from covid infections), so I'll ask it again: Do you have any actual reason to think that the scientific and medical consensuses surrounding covid, masks, and vaccines are incorrect? Or are you simply asserting that since people are fallible, we have no reason to ever trust anyone, no matter how much the data and research and facts agree with them? I feel like this all just boils down to you disliking being told what to do, even if it's barely even a personal inconvenience that can save countless lives. Huge upside, and basically no downside. It sounds selfish and childish. Joke’s on you. Im happily living in a state of anarchy already although i often encounter mad people who regurgitate some childish nonsense about State Law Obey Adhere yadada i mostly just sigh or laugh at this and at the end of the day i get along with people just fine even if i think a lot of them are acting out nonsense As for scientific and medical consensuses, you’re free to listen and trust to whoever or whichever institution you please. Except you're not. You're living in a country with laws and law enforcers. You're not living in an anarchist state. And I'll acknowledge your second non-answer to my repeated question as a concession that you don't have a legitimate science-based or medical-based argument for hating on the mask mandate. You're just ticked off that you're being told what to do. I think he might be doing his best to convince everyone that Mohdoo’s island exclusion proposal isn’t so bad after all. Everyone is like "tHeY aReN't ThAt BaD!!111 what about sympathy!?!?! WAHHHH" and then they spend a few minutes with reality. To be fair, I don't think Amumoman is the average person, and most of us probably believe he's not "real" either lol.
Plot twist, Amumoman is a Mohdoo psyop to make his island exile proposal seem a little less extreme.
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On August 19 2021 15:22 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2021 12:58 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 19 2021 10:59 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2021 01:18 Magic Powers wrote:On August 19 2021 01:11 Mohdoo wrote:
Pointing out the fact that people are shitty at understanding reputability isn't helping your argument. All you are showing is that lots of people have lots of really stupid thoughts. That isn't new. That isn't novel. It doesn't change anything. The fact that we have billions of humans means we will have at least a billion idiots.
This ridiculous muddying of the waters is transparent and simple. You aren't the first person to come up with silly methods like this. We have already answered these fake questions of yours. You jump to the conclusion that people are stupid real fast, almost like it's a reflex. Can you prove that they come to their conclusions because they're stupid? Because I think the burden of proof for that claim is in your corner, not anyone else's. By the very definition of IQ, half the population has an IQ lower than 100. I'd consider an IQ under 100 quite stupid. So calling a billion people stupid is actually quite charitable as he's only calling about 1/7 of the world population stupid, which is comfortably below one sigma of the population intelligence. The way IQ is defined, that is 85. Saying people with an IQ below 85 are stupid seems fair. Worldwide that is well over a billion people. Now whether the majority of antivaxxers are among that billion, or IQ and propensity to believe antivax drivel are uncorrelated, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised, but have no data to support that. By education level, PhD’s are the most Covid vaccine hesitant group. https://www.upmc.com/media/news/072621-king-mejia-vaccine-hesitancyThe largest decrease in hesitancy between January and May by education group was in those with a high school education or less. Hesitancy held constant in the most educated group (those with a Ph.D.); by May Ph.D.’s were the most hesitant group. Your quote doesn't say that. It says that by education level,. PhDs decreased their hesitancy the least.
So what did this part of the quoted text mean then?
by May Ph.D.’s were the most hesitant group.
Look, here is the data in chart form, by education level from that study.
https://unherd.com/thepost/the-most-vaccine-hesitant-education-group-of-all-phds/
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Not all PhD's are equal, in fact I'd consider them to be highly unequal. Art or politics give no insight into biology, chemistry or statistics. I'd be curious to see what the graph looks like when further breaking it down by disciplines and subjects.
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Canada going into snap elections over mandatory vaccination. Sydney lockdown extended. New Zealand going into lockdown due a single case.
And yet, focus is all on the controversial provocative opinion of some 'ghost' in the thread. And people can even extrapolate this lone voice as a reason to justify a police state (albeit in jest, but still...)
If anything, the thread exemplies exactly the priorities of an average person's attention span...
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On August 20 2021 13:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Not all PhD's are equal, in fact I'd consider them to be highly unequal. Art or politics give no insight into biology, chemistry or statistics. I'd be curious to see what the graph looks like when further breaking it down by disciplines and subjects.
Eh, i think that's nitpicking. I think that's still a rather interesting split. It also doesn't disagree with the Gallup poll: people with college degrees in general include bachelors and masters,which are way lower. The PhDs being such a weird peak and resistant to having their minds changed is very weird.
However, it also isn't very important. The subgroup analysis is still the problematic bit: 2% of the US population have a PhD. If we were to split that poll into subgroups of 2% (that's 50 subgroups), then we'd, on average, expect 2 or 3 of those to show statistically significant (with p < 0.05) weird behavior. Unless the study controlled for that (e.g. by conducting a separate followup into just that subgroup), it is not really possible to know if the PhDs to vaccine resistance is a real correlation or a spurious one.
Put another way: there are about as many people with PhDs as there are gingers in the US. If that poll had split by hair color instead of education level and found something similar, then we'd all be saying it's a spurious correlation.
It cannot be dismissed out of hand, of course. The study found a correlation. It may very well be real, and it's worth investigating. But I wouldn't be too worried that education makes people stupid just yet
Finally, we are talking about 2% of the population. It just isn't very important in and of itself whether PhDs are antivaxxers. Meanwhile people without a college degree make up 58% of the US population. I am very glad to see that whatever measures are being taken to change antivaxxers' minds are kinda working on them, as getting vaccination rates up in that 58% is going to have a wayyyy greater impact than changing tactics to focus on PhDs...
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On August 20 2021 13:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Not all PhD's are equal, in fact I'd consider them to be highly unequal. Art or politics give no insight into biology, chemistry or statistics. I'd be curious to see what the graph looks like when further breaking it down by disciplines and subjects.
The study is solely conducted from facebook data. I personally don't know anyone with any degree who still engages in facebook. Hesitancy also doesn't equal straight out denial.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
It’s interesting that’s for sure.
Of course, it’s quite hard to ask all this sample in an interview fashion what their reasons are, but without some approximate categorisation there this feels like one of those studies that will be interpreted basically to make whatever point the person citing it could want to make.
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On August 20 2021 15:39 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 13:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Not all PhD's are equal, in fact I'd consider them to be highly unequal. Art or politics give no insight into biology, chemistry or statistics. I'd be curious to see what the graph looks like when further breaking it down by disciplines and subjects. Eh, i think that's nitpicking. I think that's still a rather interesting split. It also doesn't disagree with the Gallup poll: people with college degrees in general include bachelors and masters,which are way lower. The PhDs being such a weird peak and resistant to having their minds changed is very weird. However, it also isn't very important. The subgroup analysis is still the problematic bit: 2% of the US population have a PhD. If we were to split that poll into subgroups of 2% (that's 50 subgroups), then we'd, on average, expect 2 or 3 of those to show statistically significant (with p < 0.05) weird behavior. Unless the study controlled for that (e.g. by conducting a separate followup into just that subgroup), it is not really possible to know if the PhDs to vaccine resistance is a real correlation or a spurious one. Put another way: there are about as many people with PhDs as there are gingers in the US. If that poll had split by hair color instead of education level and found something similar, then we'd all be saying it's a spurious correlation. It cannot be dismissed out of hand, of course. The study found a correlation. It may very well be real, and it's worth investigating. But I wouldn't be too worried that education makes people stupid just yet Finally, we are talking about 2% of the population. It just isn't very important in and of itself whether PhDs are antivaxxers. Meanwhile people without a college degree make up 58% of the US population. I am very glad to see that whatever measures are being taken to change antivaxxers' minds are kinda working on them, as getting vaccination rates up in that 58% is going to have a wayyyy greater impact than changing tactics to focus on PhDs...
The issue isn't the idea of "oh no, people with a PhD aren't going to get vaccinated. This is a disaster because they're such a huge part of the population. How are we ever going to get enough people vaccinated?"
The issue is "see, PhD holders tend to be less in favor of vaccination than all the other groups. This means the highest education level correlates with less support for vaccination. So we're right to also be skeptical about the vaccines".
I'm not making this up, this is the exact argument people are making in the political chats that I frequent.
I cannot and will not believe that someone with a masters in virology (for example) is this likely to be against the covid-19 vaccines, especially the more recent PhD holders who haven't been so strongly exposed to outdated information. I'm not buying it even for a second, it makes no sense.
This is why I find it very important to dispel this myth (yes, I'm convinced it's a myth), and it's an example of what I spoke about earlier: that people point to the status of some people to come to bad conclusions, without knowing what that status even represents.
I fully expect someone with a degree in the arts or social studies to not have a better idea than the average high school kid how to pick good information over bad information in regards to vaccination.
On August 20 2021 15:59 r00ty wrote:
The study is solely conducted from facebook data. I personally don't know anyone with any degree who still engages in facebook. Hesitancy also doesn't equal straight out denial.
Good point, yeah. I myself wouldn't touch FB polls with a ten foot pole.
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On August 20 2021 16:17 Magic Powers wrote:
I cannot and will not believe that someone with a masters in virology (for example) is this likely to be against the covid-19 vaccines, especially the more recent PhD holders who haven't been so strongly exposed to outdated information. I'm not buying it even for a second, it makes no sense.
It makes sense if you consider the situation. Combating respiratory virus epidemics is very well understood and there is an exact game plan devised for such an occassion. That plan has been devised over decades by said virologists and has existed way before the current endemic breakout happened. Blanket vaccinations of everyone are not part of it and neither is vaccinating people during the breakout. So specialists in the field being skeptical is not surprising to me at all.
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On August 20 2021 17:06 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 16:17 Magic Powers wrote:
I cannot and will not believe that someone with a masters in virology (for example) is this likely to be against the covid-19 vaccines, especially the more recent PhD holders who haven't been so strongly exposed to outdated information. I'm not buying it even for a second, it makes no sense. It makes sense if you consider the situation. Combating respiratory virus epidemics is very well understood and there is an exact game plan devised for such an occassion. That plan has been devised over decades by said virologists and has existed way before the current endemic breakout happened. Blanket vaccinations are not part of it and neither is vaccinating people during the breakout. So specialists in the field being skeptical is not surprising to me at all.
How would that make virologists vaccine hesitant? 2.5 billion people have received at least one dose, 1.9 billion people have received two or more doses, and not a single death can be attributed to covid-19 vaccination.
Vaccine hesitancy is in regards to "unknown harmful effects" (e.g. in the long term for example). Other than caution of such effects, there's nothing any virologist could be using to argue against vaccination.
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On August 20 2021 17:21 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2021 17:06 Nikon wrote:On August 20 2021 16:17 Magic Powers wrote:
I cannot and will not believe that someone with a masters in virology (for example) is this likely to be against the covid-19 vaccines, especially the more recent PhD holders who haven't been so strongly exposed to outdated information. I'm not buying it even for a second, it makes no sense. It makes sense if you consider the situation. Combating respiratory virus epidemics is very well understood and there is an exact game plan devised for such an occassion. That plan has been devised over decades by said virologists and has existed way before the current endemic breakout happened. Blanket vaccinations are not part of it and neither is vaccinating people during the breakout. So specialists in the field being skeptical is not surprising to me at all. How would that make virologists vaccine hesitant? 2.5 billion people have received at least one dose, 1.9 billion people have received two or more doses, and not a single death can be attributed to covid-19 vaccination. Vaccine hesitancy is in regards to "unknown harmful effects" (e.g. in the long term for example). Other than caution of such effects, there's nothing any virologist could be using to argue against vaccination.
What? Of course people died after a vaccination!
https://www.echo24.de/welt/deutschland-corona-impfung-tod-pei-moderna-johnson-ursache-thrombose-biontech-astrazeneca-bericht-90574215.html
(German, but see the list. Todesfälle==Deaths)
It is rare (they say a number: 0,0024%) but absolutely happening! Who told you otherwise?
Of course it is often difficult to see if it is "death because of the vaccination" or just "happenstance" (a 24y old died, but he also did drugs!)
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I'm not saying they'd argue against vaccination, just blanket mass vaccinating everyone. As long as the vaccine does not offer immunity to the virus, vaccinating everyone is going to be a lot less effective towards solving the problem than is suggested. The virus is a lot more widespread than the official data shows. It will still be here next year this time, with a new variant, and it will keep going like that. Coincidentally, now is about the best time to get a vaccine if you're in a risk group, as long as the vaccine is effective against the Delta variation.
On August 20 2021 17:21 Magic Powers wrote:
and not a single death can be attributed to covid-19 vaccination.
I'm doubtful about this statement, but that's beside the topic.
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EPT
