|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
United States44287 Posts
On November 25 2024 17:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 17:31 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 15:46 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 10:13 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:
[quote]
How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian. I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Ok, so what do you propose? Ukraine gives up and lets Russia genocide them? No. I think it's probably a good idea for both the US and Ukraine to do whatever is necessary for their country not to be run by a useful idiot for Putin. That would mean not freely handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to a guy libs/Dems are sure is a useful idiot for Putin AND WILL IMMEDIATELY PRESSURE/FORCE UKRAINE TO CONCEDE. Maybe fight against the US being taken over by useful idiot for Putin comparably hard as they have/have expected from Ukrainians (who don't have the most lethal military in the world). Or libs/Dems could just also tell Ukrainians like they are telling people like me in the US: "Sure, having a leader that's a useful idiot for Putin sucks, but it's better to have that than to have the consequences of refusing to accept that". That would be another way for them to resolve the contradiction and probably what they ultimately will do if/when Ukraine negotiates negative peace, Russia is reluctantly welcomed back into trade with the West, and they remember how to look at Ukrainian revolutionaries like Dav1oN like they look at me. You know your writing has become increasingly vague and obfuscating. Are you plotting an assassination or your own version of January 6 or encouraging others to do the same or what is going on here with 'do whatever is necessary'? Is that what you deem necessary to prevent Ukraine/the US from being run by a useful idiot for Putin? No. See how easy it is to answer a question in a straight forward manner? (I have also given reasons why not in the past.) But here you are flipping the question back to me rather than answer directly. So what are you on about? So Trump can force Ukraine to settle for negative peace. Then Ukrainians and USians can focus on winning their next elections to prevent their governments from being controlled by useful idiots for Putin in your opinion?
Ukraine has autonomy and Putin isn’t offering them peace anyway so the idea of Trump forcing them into accepting a peace is flawed for multiple reasons. I think you need to update your imperialist worldview.
|
Northern Ireland27355 Posts
As per this sub-topic, how would the mechanics of this hypothetical mass deportation program actually work? How does the interaction between federal policy and state autonomy look here?
|
How can you mass deport people when "they can't find them"? It makes no sense. It's another "build the wall" scam.
|
If you want to deport people, and don't care a lot about due process or if you actually got the right guy, you can find some.
Just take any vaguely brown person and deport them.
|
On November 26 2024 00:21 Simberto wrote:
If you want to deport people, and don't care a lot about due process or if you actually got the right guy, you can find some.
Just take any vaguely brown person and deport them.
If Trump indeed rounds up all these people, we're going to see a lot of "shocked pikachu" faces on any brown-skinned Trump supporter who gets arrested and/or deported, thinking that they were going to be exempt or otherwise not targeted.
|
On November 26 2024 00:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 00:21 Simberto wrote:
If you want to deport people, and don't care a lot about due process or if you actually got the right guy, you can find some.
Just take any vaguely brown person and deport them. If Trump indeed rounds up all these people, we're going to see a lot of "shocked pikachu" faces on any brown-skinned Trump supporter who gets arrested and/or deported, thinking that they were going to be exempt or otherwise not targeted.
Yeah, Leopards ate my face and all that.
|
Honestly id be really surprised if actual citizens get deported. Im sure there will be some holding procedure for a period of time where paper work could get sorted. I cannot see people being loaded up in a van and just dumped over the mexico border.
Im sure people will get incorrectly put into holding though.
|
Northern Ireland27355 Posts
Why has there never been any visible appetite to go after the multitude of employers who are the biggest beneficiaries from illegal migrant labour?
|
On November 26 2024 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Why has there never been any visible appetite to go after the multitude of employers who are the biggest beneficiaries from illegal migrant labour? I assume this is a rhetorical question.
The answer is $$
|
Northern Ireland27355 Posts
On November 26 2024 00:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Why has there never been any visible appetite to go after the multitude of employers who are the biggest beneficiaries from illegal migrant labour? I assume this is a rhetorical question. The answer is $$
Makes sense in terms of those earning the moolah
But in terms of wider sentiment politically, seems a bit strange to me.
|
On November 25 2024 23:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 17:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 17:31 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 15:46 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 10:13 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before?
[quote]
I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian. I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Ok, so what do you propose? Ukraine gives up and lets Russia genocide them? No. I think it's probably a good idea for both the US and Ukraine to do whatever is necessary for their country not to be run by a useful idiot for Putin. That would mean not freely handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to a guy libs/Dems are sure is a useful idiot for Putin AND WILL IMMEDIATELY PRESSURE/FORCE UKRAINE TO CONCEDE. Maybe fight against the US being taken over by useful idiot for Putin comparably hard as they have/have expected from Ukrainians (who don't have the most lethal military in the world). Or libs/Dems could just also tell Ukrainians like they are telling people like me in the US: "Sure, having a leader that's a useful idiot for Putin sucks, but it's better to have that than to have the consequences of refusing to accept that". That would be another way for them to resolve the contradiction and probably what they ultimately will do if/when Ukraine negotiates negative peace, Russia is reluctantly welcomed back into trade with the West, and they remember how to look at Ukrainian revolutionaries like Dav1oN like they look at me. You know your writing has become increasingly vague and obfuscating. Are you plotting an assassination or your own version of January 6 or encouraging others to do the same or what is going on here with 'do whatever is necessary'? Is that what you deem necessary to prevent Ukraine/the US from being run by a useful idiot for Putin? No. See how easy it is to answer a question in a straight forward manner? (I have also given reasons why not in the past.) But here you are flipping the question back to me rather than answer directly. So what are you on about? So Trump can force Ukraine to settle for negative peace. Then Ukrainians and USians can focus on winning their next elections to prevent their governments from being controlled by useful idiots for Putin in your opinion? Ukraine has autonomy and Putin isn’t offering them peace anyway so the idea of Trump forcing them into accepting a peace is flawed for multiple reasons. I think you need to update your imperialist worldview.
If you prefer to call it "pressure" or "leverage" Ukraine into accepting a negative peace deal by removing critical support that's fine. Zelensky has already broken from your chickenhawk fantasies + Show Spoiler +On July 16 2022 03:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2022 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't speak to the "Noam Chomsky" aspect but it starts with seeing the US exploiting Ukrainians as sacrificial pawns in a proxy war with Russia.
The relevant history goes at least back to post WWII and Operation Gladio. More recently was the US backed overthrowing of the Ukrainian government.
I'm not in left circles that say Russia is justified in eliminating Ukraine but the west and the US certainly played a role in it getting to this point and pushing to sustain the war indefinitely over diplomatic solutions.
None of that excuses Russia's actions, just a bit of perspective of why some leftists didn't go full hawk mode over Ukraine. There's no diplomatic solution to be had here...
and acknowledged "we must do everything so that this war ends next year, ends through diplomatic means".
You all probably also noticed Zelensky's latest "Victory Plan" doesn't mention getting Ukraine's 1991 borders back.
EDIT: I should mention I suspect that this change in rhetoric is related to recognizing that Putin has much less motivation to stop with Trump in office unless Trump uncharacteristically pressures him to
|
Northern Ireland27355 Posts
Could you actually clarify your position on this particular conflict because I don’t think I’m alone in finding it somewhat unclear?
Is it that you think Western interjection historically was self-interested/unwise, but that that doesn’t justify Putin’s subsequent actions or what?
Like I genuinely don’t feel I have a grasp here
|
On November 26 2024 00:19 Uldridge wrote:
How can you mass deport people when "they can't find them"? It makes no sense. It's another "build the wall" scam.
How many of the children have been lost by the way?
|
United States44287 Posts
On November 26 2024 00:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 23:33 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 17:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 17:31 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 15:46 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 10:13 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Ok, so what do you propose? Ukraine gives up and lets Russia genocide them? No. I think it's probably a good idea for both the US and Ukraine to do whatever is necessary for their country not to be run by a useful idiot for Putin. That would mean not freely handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to a guy libs/Dems are sure is a useful idiot for Putin AND WILL IMMEDIATELY PRESSURE/FORCE UKRAINE TO CONCEDE. Maybe fight against the US being taken over by useful idiot for Putin comparably hard as they have/have expected from Ukrainians (who don't have the most lethal military in the world). Or libs/Dems could just also tell Ukrainians like they are telling people like me in the US: "Sure, having a leader that's a useful idiot for Putin sucks, but it's better to have that than to have the consequences of refusing to accept that". That would be another way for them to resolve the contradiction and probably what they ultimately will do if/when Ukraine negotiates negative peace, Russia is reluctantly welcomed back into trade with the West, and they remember how to look at Ukrainian revolutionaries like Dav1oN like they look at me. You know your writing has become increasingly vague and obfuscating. Are you plotting an assassination or your own version of January 6 or encouraging others to do the same or what is going on here with 'do whatever is necessary'? Is that what you deem necessary to prevent Ukraine/the US from being run by a useful idiot for Putin? No. See how easy it is to answer a question in a straight forward manner? (I have also given reasons why not in the past.) But here you are flipping the question back to me rather than answer directly. So what are you on about? So Trump can force Ukraine to settle for negative peace. Then Ukrainians and USians can focus on winning their next elections to prevent their governments from being controlled by useful idiots for Putin in your opinion? Ukraine has autonomy and Putin isn’t offering them peace anyway so the idea of Trump forcing them into accepting a peace is flawed for multiple reasons. I think you need to update your imperialist worldview. If you prefer to call it "pressure" or "leverage" Ukraine into accepting a negative peace deal by removing critical support that's fine. Zelensky has already broken from your chickenhawk fantasies + Show Spoiler +On July 16 2022 03:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2022 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't speak to the "Noam Chomsky" aspect but it starts with seeing the US exploiting Ukrainians as sacrificial pawns in a proxy war with Russia.
The relevant history goes at least back to post WWII and Operation Gladio. More recently was the US backed overthrowing of the Ukrainian government.
I'm not in left circles that say Russia is justified in eliminating Ukraine but the west and the US certainly played a role in it getting to this point and pushing to sustain the war indefinitely over diplomatic solutions.
None of that excuses Russia's actions, just a bit of perspective of why some leftists didn't go full hawk mode over Ukraine. There's no diplomatic solution to be had here... and acknowledged "we must do everything so that this war ends next year, ends through diplomatic means". You all probably also noticed Zelensky's latest "Victory Plan" doesn't mention getting Ukraine's 1991 borders back. EDIT: I should mention I suspect that this change in rhetoric is related to recognizing that Putin has much less motivation to stop with Trump in office unless Trump uncharacteristically pressures him to
Signaling openness to accept a negotiated Russian withdrawal is to meet the bullshit rhetoric of tankies like you who keep going "why won't he just negotiate". But, as has already been explained to you at painstaking length, Russia is not currently willing to listen to any Ukrainian offer.
|
On November 26 2024 01:11 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 00:19 Uldridge wrote:
How can you mass deport people when "they can't find them"? It makes no sense. It's another "build the wall" scam. How many of the children have been lost by the way?
All of them. I've seen it with my own eyes.
|
On November 26 2024 00:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 00:56 Gorsameth wrote:On November 26 2024 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Why has there never been any visible appetite to go after the multitude of employers who are the biggest beneficiaries from illegal migrant labour? I assume this is a rhetorical question. The answer is $$ Makes sense in terms of those earning the moolah But in terms of wider sentiment politically, seems a bit strange to me.
The most effective thing the US has is "E-Verify" + Show Spoiler +was originally established in 1996 as the Basic Pilot Program to prevent companies from hiring people who had violated immigration laws and entered the United States illegally.
In 2011, California passed an act to prohibit municipalities from mandating use of E-Verify. At least 20 municipalities had required use of E-Verify, for all businesses and/or companies doing business with the local government, including Mission Viejo The politicians work for their donors and there are bipartisan motive$ to feed the US's dependency on exploiting undocumented workers.
On November 26 2024 01:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2024 00:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 23:33 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 17:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 17:31 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 15:46 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 10:13 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s
The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Ok, so what do you propose? Ukraine gives up and lets Russia genocide them? No. I think it's probably a good idea for both the US and Ukraine to do whatever is necessary for their country not to be run by a useful idiot for Putin. That would mean not freely handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to a guy libs/Dems are sure is a useful idiot for Putin AND WILL IMMEDIATELY PRESSURE/FORCE UKRAINE TO CONCEDE. Maybe fight against the US being taken over by useful idiot for Putin comparably hard as they have/have expected from Ukrainians (who don't have the most lethal military in the world). Or libs/Dems could just also tell Ukrainians like they are telling people like me in the US: "Sure, having a leader that's a useful idiot for Putin sucks, but it's better to have that than to have the consequences of refusing to accept that". That would be another way for them to resolve the contradiction and probably what they ultimately will do if/when Ukraine negotiates negative peace, Russia is reluctantly welcomed back into trade with the West, and they remember how to look at Ukrainian revolutionaries like Dav1oN like they look at me. You know your writing has become increasingly vague and obfuscating. Are you plotting an assassination or your own version of January 6 or encouraging others to do the same or what is going on here with 'do whatever is necessary'? Is that what you deem necessary to prevent Ukraine/the US from being run by a useful idiot for Putin? No. See how easy it is to answer a question in a straight forward manner? (I have also given reasons why not in the past.) But here you are flipping the question back to me rather than answer directly. So what are you on about? So Trump can force Ukraine to settle for negative peace. Then Ukrainians and USians can focus on winning their next elections to prevent their governments from being controlled by useful idiots for Putin in your opinion? Ukraine has autonomy and Putin isn’t offering them peace anyway so the idea of Trump forcing them into accepting a peace is flawed for multiple reasons. I think you need to update your imperialist worldview. If you prefer to call it "pressure" or "leverage" Ukraine into accepting a negative peace deal by removing critical support that's fine. Zelensky has already broken from your chickenhawk fantasies + Show Spoiler +On July 16 2022 03:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2022 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't speak to the "Noam Chomsky" aspect but it starts with seeing the US exploiting Ukrainians as sacrificial pawns in a proxy war with Russia.
The relevant history goes at least back to post WWII and Operation Gladio. More recently was the US backed overthrowing of the Ukrainian government.
I'm not in left circles that say Russia is justified in eliminating Ukraine but the west and the US certainly played a role in it getting to this point and pushing to sustain the war indefinitely over diplomatic solutions.
None of that excuses Russia's actions, just a bit of perspective of why some leftists didn't go full hawk mode over Ukraine. There's no diplomatic solution to be had here... and acknowledged "we must do everything so that this war ends next year, ends through diplomatic means". You all probably also noticed Zelensky's latest "Victory Plan" doesn't mention getting Ukraine's 1991 borders back. EDIT: I should mention I suspect that this change in rhetoric is related to recognizing that Putin has much less motivation to stop with Trump in office unless Trump uncharacteristically pressures him to Could you actually clarify your position on this particular conflict because I don’t think I’m alone in finding it somewhat unclear? Is it that you think Western interjection historically was self-interested/unwise, but that that doesn’t justify Putin’s subsequent actions or what? Like I genuinely don’t feel I have a grasp here
Yeah, I think Western (specifically the US) involvement was always obviously cynically self-interested and Ukrainians suffering the consequences of that insatiable selfishness was inevitable, also that it doesn't justify Putin's actions. I've said this before.
|
On November 26 2024 00:19 Uldridge wrote:
How can you mass deport people when "they can't find them"? It makes no sense. It's another "build the wall" scam.
If the Soviet Union could kill 100k Polish spies in the 30's, anything is possible. ;-)
On November 26 2024 00:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 23:33 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2024 17:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 17:31 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 15:46 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 10:13 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Ok, so what do you propose? Ukraine gives up and lets Russia genocide them? No. I think it's probably a good idea for both the US and Ukraine to do whatever is necessary for their country not to be run by a useful idiot for Putin. That would mean not freely handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to a guy libs/Dems are sure is a useful idiot for Putin AND WILL IMMEDIATELY PRESSURE/FORCE UKRAINE TO CONCEDE. Maybe fight against the US being taken over by useful idiot for Putin comparably hard as they have/have expected from Ukrainians (who don't have the most lethal military in the world). Or libs/Dems could just also tell Ukrainians like they are telling people like me in the US: "Sure, having a leader that's a useful idiot for Putin sucks, but it's better to have that than to have the consequences of refusing to accept that". That would be another way for them to resolve the contradiction and probably what they ultimately will do if/when Ukraine negotiates negative peace, Russia is reluctantly welcomed back into trade with the West, and they remember how to look at Ukrainian revolutionaries like Dav1oN like they look at me. You know your writing has become increasingly vague and obfuscating. Are you plotting an assassination or your own version of January 6 or encouraging others to do the same or what is going on here with 'do whatever is necessary'? Is that what you deem necessary to prevent Ukraine/the US from being run by a useful idiot for Putin? No. See how easy it is to answer a question in a straight forward manner? (I have also given reasons why not in the past.) But here you are flipping the question back to me rather than answer directly. So what are you on about? So Trump can force Ukraine to settle for negative peace. Then Ukrainians and USians can focus on winning their next elections to prevent their governments from being controlled by useful idiots for Putin in your opinion? Ukraine has autonomy and Putin isn’t offering them peace anyway so the idea of Trump forcing them into accepting a peace is flawed for multiple reasons. I think you need to update your imperialist worldview. If you prefer to call it "pressure" or "leverage" Ukraine into accepting a negative peace deal by removing critical support that's fine. Zelensky has already broken from your chickenhawk fantasies + Show Spoiler +On July 16 2022 03:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2022 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
I can't speak to the "Noam Chomsky" aspect but it starts with seeing the US exploiting Ukrainians as sacrificial pawns in a proxy war with Russia.
The relevant history goes at least back to post WWII and Operation Gladio. More recently was the US backed overthrowing of the Ukrainian government.
I'm not in left circles that say Russia is justified in eliminating Ukraine but the west and the US certainly played a role in it getting to this point and pushing to sustain the war indefinitely over diplomatic solutions.
None of that excuses Russia's actions, just a bit of perspective of why some leftists didn't go full hawk mode over Ukraine. There's no diplomatic solution to be had here... and acknowledged "we must do everything so that this war ends next year, ends through diplomatic means". You all probably also noticed Zelensky's latest "Victory Plan" doesn't mention getting Ukraine's 1991 borders back. EDIT: I should mention I suspect that this change in rhetoric is related to recognizing that Putin has much less motivation to stop with Trump in office unless Trump uncharacteristically pressures him to
Zelensky stressed that Ukraine will not trade territory for sovereignty on many occasions, also when discussing said victory plan:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd0z8gg5v14o
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/16/europe/zelensky-ukraine-victory-plan/index.html
|
I never really watch a huge amount of US politics tv coverage and I just saw the latest shoeonhead video on youtube - it has loads of clips of tv interviews - and holy shit.
The Democrats are really that bad at basic politics. I didn't even know how bad they are. The number of people saying that Harris ran an amazing, brilliant campaign. The absolute refusal to even listen to any criticism or admit that they failed. How depressing.
"We need a liberal Joe Rogan"
wtf.
I know this kind of video is very basic in terms of analysis, but it turns out that very basic analysis is 1000x the amount of analysis that the Democrats want.
|
Canada11607 Posts
On November 25 2024 17:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2024 17:31 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 25 2024 15:46 Falling wrote:On November 25 2024 15:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 10:13 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:
[quote]
How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian. I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Ok, so what do you propose? Ukraine gives up and lets Russia genocide them? No. I think it's probably a good idea for both the US and Ukraine to do whatever is necessary for their country not to be run by a useful idiot for Putin. That would mean not freely handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to a guy libs/Dems are sure is a useful idiot for Putin AND WILL IMMEDIATELY PRESSURE/FORCE UKRAINE TO CONCEDE. Maybe fight against the US being taken over by useful idiot for Putin comparably hard as they have/have expected from Ukrainians (who don't have the most lethal military in the world). Or libs/Dems could just also tell Ukrainians like they are telling people like me in the US: "Sure, having a leader that's a useful idiot for Putin sucks, but it's better to have that than to have the consequences of refusing to accept that". That would be another way for them to resolve the contradiction and probably what they ultimately will do if/when Ukraine negotiates negative peace, Russia is reluctantly welcomed back into trade with the West, and they remember how to look at Ukrainian revolutionaries like Dav1oN like they look at me. You know your writing has become increasingly vague and obfuscating. Are you plotting an assassination or your own version of January 6 or encouraging others to do the same or what is going on here with 'do whatever is necessary'? Is that what you deem necessary to prevent Ukraine/the US from being run by a useful idiot for Putin? No. See how easy it is to answer a question in a straight forward manner? (I have also given reasons why not in the past.) But here you are flipping the question back to me rather than answer directly. So what are you on about? So Trump can force Ukraine to settle for negative peace. Then Ukrainians and USians can focus on winning their next elections to prevent their governments from being controlled by useful idiots for Putin in your opinion?
I asked you to clarify what you are were hinting at. You answered my question with a question of your own. And although I did not receive any answer, I answered your question in hopes you might still answer my first question. But instead you turn it back to me with yet another question. This one I see no reason to answer until you have answered my only question to you. You are no Socrates.
|
@GH, I am also confused regarding your Ukraine stance considering your Gaza stance. Like what a poster said a while back, please make it make sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
