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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On November 24 2024 08:06 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 04:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 01:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone. Clearly you're not familiar with Democrats. Democrats single biggest achievement in our lifetimes has been to pass a healthcare plan that's to THE RIGHT of what Nixon proposed. Few people today would dare call President Richard Nixon a radical liberal. But 44 years ago, he proposed a health plan that went far beyond what today’s Affordable Care Act includes.
Looking at this comparison of the plans, Freed says, it’s easy to see that Nixon’s proposals were far more “liberal” than what passed under the Affordable Care Act during President Obama’s first term. ihpi.umich.edu Yeah I agree with you. I'm saying Democrats are already right-wing enough. Moving further to the right makes no sense. The problem was you saying "Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone." It convinces Democrats/their supporters and has for decades. Doesn't matter how obviously stupid, destructive, cruel, etc. it is. Remember we're in the midst of libs/Dems already rationalizing their support for genocide, slavery, and arming Nazis. I'd say that's more than right wing enough, but they'll just keep ratcheting rightward with the support of their voters anyway. @GH I recommend that you read this article. It explains the reasoning behind the funding. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/12/europe/us-weapons-azov-brigade-ukraine-intl/index.html
I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before?
On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense.
I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian.
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On November 24 2024 08:28 Gorsameth wrote:
The only peace plan Russia accepts is the one that lets them invade Ukraine again in a decade when they rebuilt their army.
With Trump in charge, Russia might not need to wait a decade.
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Northern Ireland27209 Posts
On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense.
To me it doesn’t make much sense at all, but I’ll let the man himself answer.
If aid is contingent on having no sizeable Nazi presence, or adjacent ideas amongst a populace then I don’t see how one can really not hold Palestinians to the standard and cut them off. For quite understandable reasons absolutely, your average Palestinian has much more extreme views in certain domains than the average Ukrainian.
I find it a very strange hill to die on indeed but those are just my sensibilities.
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On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 08:06 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 04:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 01:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone. Clearly you're not familiar with Democrats. Democrats single biggest achievement in our lifetimes has been to pass a healthcare plan that's to THE RIGHT of what Nixon proposed. Few people today would dare call President Richard Nixon a radical liberal. But 44 years ago, he proposed a health plan that went far beyond what today’s Affordable Care Act includes.
Looking at this comparison of the plans, Freed says, it’s easy to see that Nixon’s proposals were far more “liberal” than what passed under the Affordable Care Act during President Obama’s first term. ihpi.umich.edu Yeah I agree with you. I'm saying Democrats are already right-wing enough. Moving further to the right makes no sense. The problem was you saying "Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone." It convinces Democrats/their supporters and has for decades. Doesn't matter how obviously stupid, destructive, cruel, etc. it is. Remember we're in the midst of libs/Dems already rationalizing their support for genocide, slavery, and arming Nazis. I'd say that's more than right wing enough, but they'll just keep ratcheting rightward with the support of their voters anyway. @GH I recommend that you read this article. It explains the reasoning behind the funding. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/12/europe/us-weapons-azov-brigade-ukraine-intl/index.html I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian.
I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact.
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On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 08:06 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 04:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 01:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone. Clearly you're not familiar with Democrats. Democrats single biggest achievement in our lifetimes has been to pass a healthcare plan that's to THE RIGHT of what Nixon proposed. Few people today would dare call President Richard Nixon a radical liberal. But 44 years ago, he proposed a health plan that went far beyond what today’s Affordable Care Act includes.
Looking at this comparison of the plans, Freed says, it’s easy to see that Nixon’s proposals were far more “liberal” than what passed under the Affordable Care Act during President Obama’s first term. ihpi.umich.edu Yeah I agree with you. I'm saying Democrats are already right-wing enough. Moving further to the right makes no sense. The problem was you saying "Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone." It convinces Democrats/their supporters and has for decades. Doesn't matter how obviously stupid, destructive, cruel, etc. it is. Remember we're in the midst of libs/Dems already rationalizing their support for genocide, slavery, and arming Nazis. I'd say that's more than right wing enough, but they'll just keep ratcheting rightward with the support of their voters anyway. @GH I recommend that you read this article. It explains the reasoning behind the funding. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/12/europe/us-weapons-azov-brigade-ukraine-intl/index.html I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian. I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact.
The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s
The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point.
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On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 08:06 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 04:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 01:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone. Clearly you're not familiar with Democrats. Democrats single biggest achievement in our lifetimes has been to pass a healthcare plan that's to THE RIGHT of what Nixon proposed. Few people today would dare call President Richard Nixon a radical liberal. But 44 years ago, he proposed a health plan that went far beyond what today’s Affordable Care Act includes.
Looking at this comparison of the plans, Freed says, it’s easy to see that Nixon’s proposals were far more “liberal” than what passed under the Affordable Care Act during President Obama’s first term. ihpi.umich.edu Yeah I agree with you. I'm saying Democrats are already right-wing enough. Moving further to the right makes no sense. The problem was you saying "Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone." It convinces Democrats/their supporters and has for decades. Doesn't matter how obviously stupid, destructive, cruel, etc. it is. Remember we're in the midst of libs/Dems already rationalizing their support for genocide, slavery, and arming Nazis. I'd say that's more than right wing enough, but they'll just keep ratcheting rightward with the support of their voters anyway. @GH I recommend that you read this article. It explains the reasoning behind the funding. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/12/europe/us-weapons-azov-brigade-ukraine-intl/index.html I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian. I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point.
Ok, so what do you propose? Ukraine gives up and lets Russia genocide them?
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On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 08:06 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 04:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 01:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone. Clearly you're not familiar with Democrats. Democrats single biggest achievement in our lifetimes has been to pass a healthcare plan that's to THE RIGHT of what Nixon proposed. Few people today would dare call President Richard Nixon a radical liberal. But 44 years ago, he proposed a health plan that went far beyond what today’s Affordable Care Act includes.
Looking at this comparison of the plans, Freed says, it’s easy to see that Nixon’s proposals were far more “liberal” than what passed under the Affordable Care Act during President Obama’s first term. ihpi.umich.edu Yeah I agree with you. I'm saying Democrats are already right-wing enough. Moving further to the right makes no sense. The problem was you saying "Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone." It convinces Democrats/their supporters and has for decades. Doesn't matter how obviously stupid, destructive, cruel, etc. it is. Remember we're in the midst of libs/Dems already rationalizing their support for genocide, slavery, and arming Nazis. I'd say that's more than right wing enough, but they'll just keep ratcheting rightward with the support of their voters anyway. @GH I recommend that you read this article. It explains the reasoning behind the funding. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/12/europe/us-weapons-azov-brigade-ukraine-intl/index.html I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian. I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point.
Israel was not being investigated for a very, very long time. Now that they were, a very large number of war crimes were uncovered. Oh and Netanyahu is wanted by the ICC as a war criminal. You find this comparable to Ukraine?
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Northern Ireland27209 Posts
On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 09:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 08:06 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 04:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 01:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone. Clearly you're not familiar with Democrats. Democrats single biggest achievement in our lifetimes has been to pass a healthcare plan that's to THE RIGHT of what Nixon proposed. Few people today would dare call President Richard Nixon a radical liberal. But 44 years ago, he proposed a health plan that went far beyond what today’s Affordable Care Act includes.
Looking at this comparison of the plans, Freed says, it’s easy to see that Nixon’s proposals were far more “liberal” than what passed under the Affordable Care Act during President Obama’s first term. ihpi.umich.edu Yeah I agree with you. I'm saying Democrats are already right-wing enough. Moving further to the right makes no sense. The problem was you saying "Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone." It convinces Democrats/their supporters and has for decades. Doesn't matter how obviously stupid, destructive, cruel, etc. it is. Remember we're in the midst of libs/Dems already rationalizing their support for genocide, slavery, and arming Nazis. I'd say that's more than right wing enough, but they'll just keep ratcheting rightward with the support of their voters anyway. @GH I recommend that you read this article. It explains the reasoning behind the funding. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/12/europe/us-weapons-azov-brigade-ukraine-intl/index.html I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian. I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to help you understand the reason. There was an investigation into war crimes by the Azov brigade and they came out clean. They were also essential in defending Mariupol. Their Nazi history is a serious issue, but Ukraine needs every soldier they can get. I'm sure even you can acknowledge that fact. The same "investigators" that say Israel isn't committing war crimes. Can close both those cases I guess /s The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point.
But why would that bother you, as you’ve been critical of historic Ukraine policy?
You seemingly want to criticise people for being complacent on Trump reversing said policy, but being critical of the policy itself so I’m rather unsure what your position is here
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United States44195 Posts
On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense.
He's a tankie.
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On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point.
Is it ironic that some people do chemotherapy after a cancer diagnosis even though they took homeopathic pills when all they had was a vague sense of unease? Does gatekeeping them from life-saving medicine based on this transgression make you a misunderstood genius or a sociopath?
Writing "revolution" in quotes after a dozen people more informed than you put in the effort to explain to you the events of Euromaidan in the other thread is some oBlade behavior. Incapable of overcoming the one-note flowchart. And then you have the audacity to tell people they should ignore him when just as much time is being wasted on your ragebait nonsense.
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Only my revolution is a moral one.
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On November 24 2024 18:14 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Writing "revolution" in quotes after a dozen people more informed than you put in the effort to explain to you the events of Euromaidan in the other thread is some oBlade behavior. Incapable of overcoming the one-note flowchart. And then you have the audacity to tell people they should ignore him when just as much time is being wasted on your ragebait nonsense.
My name has no relevance to your current subject, friend.
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On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense.
It’s very consistent with the foundational premises that “Western”-aligned polities are evil, and any news painting them in a favorable light should be discounted.
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On November 24 2024 20:54 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 18:14 Dan HH wrote:On November 24 2024 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
The cruel irony that the same people insisting Ukraine's "revolution" is rational and should continue to be fought no matter the human cost based on the alternative of having a government beholden to Putin are totally supportive of USians willingly handing control of the most lethal military in the world over to someone they insist they KNOW collaborated with Putin as his useful idiot to overthrow US democracy and install himself as a dictator seems lost on everyone but me at this point. Writing "revolution" in quotes after a dozen people more informed than you put in the effort to explain to you the events of Euromaidan in the other thread is some oBlade behavior. Incapable of overcoming the one-note flowchart. And then you have the audacity to tell people they should ignore him when just as much time is being wasted on your ragebait nonsense. My name has no relevance to your current subject, friend.
Unfortunately, it does. It's become appropriately synonymous with willful ignorance. Someone else having "oBlade behavior" - whether or not that someone really is similar to you - is perceived as a negative. You've brought it on yourself.
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On November 24 2024 08:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. What do you imagine such a settlement that would be acceptable to Russia would look like? Cause to me it looks like a) having to cede at least as much territory as Russia currently holds b) having to install a government that is pro russia c) abandoning plans to ever try to get closer to western europe, which essentially accepts the notion that Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence and consequently it has no real claim to sovereignty because the world order that lets bigger nations bully smaller nations is just like, how it is and always will be. Now, you might argue that this is preferable to the status of being actively in war. Sure. But it's hard for me to grasp this type of cynical attitude from an idealist revolutionary who otherwise consistently argues in favor of long term improvement even if it involves current hardship.
Part of your problem is thinking my presentation of realpolitik lesser evil framing for Ukraine is me endorsing it like it is when the libs/Dems use realpolitik lesser evil framing to rationalize supporting genocide, slavery, arming Nazis, etc.
I don't. I support Ukrainians in their pursuit of liberation and oppose Russia's oppression/violence/etc against Ukrainians.
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And how do we help Ukrainians liberate themselves from oppressive Russians by not funding them?
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On November 24 2024 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 08:06 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 04:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 24 2024 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 01:11 Magic Powers wrote:
Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone. Clearly you're not familiar with Democrats. Democrats single biggest achievement in our lifetimes has been to pass a healthcare plan that's to THE RIGHT of what Nixon proposed. Few people today would dare call President Richard Nixon a radical liberal. But 44 years ago, he proposed a health plan that went far beyond what today’s Affordable Care Act includes.
Looking at this comparison of the plans, Freed says, it’s easy to see that Nixon’s proposals were far more “liberal” than what passed under the Affordable Care Act during President Obama’s first term. ihpi.umich.edu Yeah I agree with you. I'm saying Democrats are already right-wing enough. Moving further to the right makes no sense. The problem was you saying "Saying Democrats are not Republican enough is not going to convince anyone." It convinces Democrats/their supporters and has for decades. Doesn't matter how obviously stupid, destructive, cruel, etc. it is. Remember we're in the midst of libs/Dems already rationalizing their support for genocide, slavery, and arming Nazis. I'd say that's more than right wing enough, but they'll just keep ratcheting rightward with the support of their voters anyway. @GH I recommend that you read this article. It explains the reasoning behind the funding. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/12/europe/us-weapons-azov-brigade-ukraine-intl/index.html I've read their rationalizations for arming and training Nazis before? Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense. I'm pro-Palestinian and pro-Ukrainian. The "mystery" is why libs/Dems are so genocidally anti-Palestinian.
No, you're not pro-Ukraine. You are very clearly pro-Russia and pro-genocide.
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Hes arguing the wrong position poorly, because he doesn't believe in it, because he thinks that will expose why you are wrong on a subject hes not arguing about. Don't you feel owned by a guy being wrong on purpose because hes confused about why you don't agree with him?
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On November 25 2024 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 08:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. What do you imagine such a settlement that would be acceptable to Russia would look like? Cause to me it looks like a) having to cede at least as much territory as Russia currently holds b) having to install a government that is pro russia c) abandoning plans to ever try to get closer to western europe, which essentially accepts the notion that Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence and consequently it has no real claim to sovereignty because the world order that lets bigger nations bully smaller nations is just like, how it is and always will be. Now, you might argue that this is preferable to the status of being actively in war. Sure. But it's hard for me to grasp this type of cynical attitude from an idealist revolutionary who otherwise consistently argues in favor of long term improvement even if it involves current hardship. Part of your problem is thinking my presentation of realpolitik lesser evil framing for Ukraine is me endorsing it like it is when the libs/Dems use realpolitik lesser evil framing to rationalize supporting genocide, slavery, arming Nazis, etc. I don't. I support Ukrainians in their pursuit of liberation and oppose Russia's oppression/violence/etc against Ukrainians.
So, then, what is your actual position and why have you been arguing, fairly vehemently I might add, in defense of a position you don't hold for the last year and a half or so?
I mean, I understand the experiment of trying to argue a contradictory point in order to show people a mirror, but it doesn't seem to have done anything except make you look foolish. If that wasn't your true position, why persist that long?
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On November 24 2024 07:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2024 07:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 24 2024 06:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen you say what you think the west should have done in response to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Normally I don't have a hard time seeing a logically consistent world view from your postings but in this regard you've specified on multiple occasions that Putin's invasion is <insert x bad superlative here> yet you also seem opposed to the response to it. Saying 'they would've been better off maintaining 2013 trajectory than they are now' also isn't an answer to what the west was supposed to do in 2022. This is more of the typical "dick in the bear trap" + Show Spoiler +This is a staple of US politics (climate change is one people are generally more familiar with) where after decades of shouting down the people (pretty much always socialists and whoever else they can get to come along) telling them not to stick their proverbial dicks in the bear trap, they turn — bloody member in hand — to ask what their bright idea is to fix the fact that their dick was severed by a bear trap.
Then once reattached, exclaim they have no good reason for them not to stick it in again. Then when they've ignored the warnings long enough and they've done it enough times that reattaching it isn't an option they look around and decide dicks are overrated and anyone that doesn't agree is the problem. stuff I've mentioned before. Presuming you're specifically talking about the "arming Nazis" part, you don't let Obama lift the ban on arming Nazis. Then when you miraculously get Trump to ban arming Nazis go ahead and have Biden lift the ban on arming Nazis again. Setting that clear Democrat support of arming/training neo-Nazis aside... I think it ultimately has to be up to Ukrainians to determine what they do, but all the dicks are pretty well mangled at this point, so the options aren't pretty. Without speculating too much about what could have been done to avoid Russia invading at all in 2022, under realpolitik lesser evilism, the reasonable response would be to maximise the pros/minimizing the cons in the negotiations and settle asap. Saving hundreds of thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions of dollars. In turn those millions/billions of limbs, lives, and resources could have went toward improving the quality of lives of Westerners, Ukrainians, (and Russians for anyone that still recognizes their humanity) instead of being blown up for nothing "democracy". Which again, a democracy that is on hold indefinitely, and has actually gotten worse since before Maidan. How the fuck can you be pro-palestine and anti-ukraine at the same time. Make it make sense.
Not sure why, but it his position and the Russian position are way more aligned than logic would dictate.
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EPT
