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On January 25 2022 03:52 Vivax wrote:
I'm curious. Do folks here read the accused nations newspapers too before forming an opinion?
Because after reading an article on tass to see what their government is claiming (I'd prefer a native language article but I don't speak Russian), they claim that NATO is doing what they are accusing Russia of doing. So now we're in that good old feedback loop 'arms-race' style where you don't know who started it/who's telling the truth. Like kids when they incessantly say 'no,you'.
What scares me in particular is that many seem to believe there's a not-so-bad-outcome in a conflict anywhere when we're talking about nuclear superpowers. Would any of you elect your officials knowing in advance that they would not be opposed to risking a war?
Ukraine is currently an independent nation. Ukraine is saying they are afraid of war with Russia. They are not saying they are afraid of war with the US.
If Russia goes from not having troops in Ukraine, to having troops in Ukraine, and Ukraine indicates it is a bad thing, there's really not 2 sides to the story.
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On January 25 2022 04:23 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 04:17 Vivax wrote:On January 25 2022 04:05 Gorsameth wrote:On January 25 2022 03:52 Vivax wrote:
I'm curious. Do folks here read the accused nations newspapers too before forming an opinion?
Because after reading an article on tass to see what their government is claiming (I'd prefer a native language article but I don't speak Russian), they claim that NATO is doing what they are accusing Russia of doing. So now we're in that good old feedback loop 'arms-race' style where you don't know who started it/who's telling the truth. Like kids when they incessantly say 'no,you'.
What scares me in particular is that many seem to believe there's a not-so-bad-outcome in a conflict anywhere when we're talking about nuclear superpowers. Would any of you elect your officials knowing in advance that they would not be opposed to risking a war? I didn't want to make the obvious comparison but lets get it over with. Remember what happened last time a dictator decided they should own a neighbouring country and the world went "let him have this one, it will be enough and we should avoid a war at all costs"? Europe was so determined to avoid another war after WW1 they ended up creating WW2 instead of smothering Hitler's Germany in its crib. The world was already way to lax when Russia blatantly annexed the Crimea, and shock, horror, here they are ready to take some more. You think Putin is going to stop with Ukraine? Will this one be enough? How about Poland? Maybe give him half of Germany? No one wants a war with Russia, but when Russia thinks it can reform the USSR by force then the only option is to prepare for war. Wanting to avoid a conflict is entirely why we are in this situation because we let Putin get away with Crimea, so why shouldn't he try again? And sure Russia can complain about the advancing NATO but that's a self fulfilling prophecy. Russia wants to expand its sphere of influence and (most of) the former USSR has absolutely no desire to go back, NATO 'advances' on Russia because the only way countries near Russia can defend themselves is by having an alliance like NATO at their back. I found a decent article on the region in question, it's in German though, 'sanctioned' information if you will since it's from the centre for political education so I assume it's not one-sided. https://m.bpb.de/207590/kommentar-der-donbass-albtraumSo now that I'm a little wiser, I think you're grossly exaggerating in your reply (Hitler?reforming the USSR?What?). We're talking about two regions. Donbass and Donetzk. Historically they have had ethnical tensions for a few decades already and the Russians seem to use an approach where they offer their citizenship to people born there and likely even arms them to further their influence over the region, while the west counters it by supporting Ukrainian nationalists who fire artillery at settlements in there if the Russian news are to be believed. It's a cultural conflict that's being escalated. Great so you agree that Russia is invading and annexing neighbouring countries. Strange you still think that holds the moral highground, but baby steps.... If Russia wants to give the people in Donetzk Russia citizenship and aid in them relocating to Russia then sure, go for it so long as people do so purely off their own accord. But they are not doing that are they? Instead Russia is waging a proxy war against Ukraine. Sure helpful of Russia to turn those poor people who just want to live in Russia into a military target by arming them for a civil war..
Moral highground? I don't feel that emotionally involved.
They annexed Crimea under the claim that 75% of the population there are Russians, yes. And the referendum apparently had 96% approval for that choice, not recognized as valid by the UN however.
What countries that they annexed are you otherwise referring to?
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On January 25 2022 04:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 04:06 Sadist wrote:
I think NATO should stay out of Ukraine.
I feel like its antagonistic to Russia to talk about adding Ukraine/Georgia.
Do we think Russia would actually invade Ukraine without NATO hanging over its head? I think its wrong for them to try to destabilize Ukraine but I dont think theyd invade.
I think our country would be pissed if China or Russia had troops or missles in Latin America. Did you miss that they already did? A few years ago a bunch of enthusiastic Russian tourists that looked suspiciously like their army occupied eastern Ukraine with their vehicles that look a lot like tanks. They shot down a passenger jet and annexed a province.
Wasnt this after NATO already talked about having Ukraine and Georgia become member states several years prior? I believe Russia already mentioned this being a hard line for them.
I agree in theory every country should be able to determine its own path. At the same time its hypocritcal for the US to expect a nuclear power to be ok with having for all intents and purposes an adversary move in on their border.
Russia behaves like assholes in a number of ways but I think its worth trying to see it from their side. At least a little.
We almost had a nuclear war when Russia put forward missles in Cuba. Why did we think Russia would feel ok if Ukraine or Georgia join NATO? Would we put short range nuclear missle in Ukraine and Georgia?
Also, we shouldnt invite countries to join a military alliance unless we are serious about defending them. Do we really want to go to war, possibly nuclear war, over Ukraine and Georgia?
Thid whole thing seems like Iraq to me. Why put Russia into a position where they have to back down? What if they dont back down?
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United States43633 Posts
Which other countries are you okay with being conquered simply because they’re far away? Do you have a list?
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On January 25 2022 04:50 KwarK wrote:
Which other countries are you okay with being conquered simply because they’re far away? Do you have a list?
Im not ok with them being conquered but I think we are forcing Russias hand here. They are assholes who shouldnt do it but we shouldnt antagonize them into it.
Why do we think Sweden and Finland are not in NATO?
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On January 25 2022 04:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 04:50 KwarK wrote:
Which other countries are you okay with being conquered simply because they’re far away? Do you have a list? Im not ok with them being conquered but I think we are forcing Russias hand here. They are assholes who shouldnt do it but we shouldnt antagonize them into it. Why do we think Sweden and Finland are not in NATO?
Yup. Ukraine into NATO means no more DMZ.
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Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine?
Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine.
That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either.
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On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either.
In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine?
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On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine?
They said theyll fuck off if Ukraine doesnt join NATO.
Why not give them that? If they invade later NATO can always help out anyway. This is a dick measuring contest that has a real impact on people.
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If Russia would leave Crimea it would be a good start. Aslong as they havent dont that , all their screeching over NATO etc is just ridicilous
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On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine?
Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine.
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On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine.
Ofcourse, but what ir Russia sets their eyes on Poland, baltic states etc aftter Ukraina. At what country do you say stop?
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On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine.
People said the same about Nazi Germany. The basic assumption I am making is that we have no reason to see Ukraine as the end of Russia's desires. We have every reason to think Ukraine will just make it easier for Russia to take even more. Placating Russia is a fantasy that I don't think has any merit.
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On January 25 2022 05:23 Kreuger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine. Ofcourse, but what ir Russia sets their eyes on Poland, baltic states etc aftter Ukraina. At what country do you say stop?
Russia can say the same about NATO (not invading, but adding adversaries) This is why the whole situation is stupid. Im convinced none of this would be happening if we didnt start discussing the expansion of NATO into areas we dont really want to go to war over anyway. The goal should have been status quo with trying to fix environment, standard of living, etc.
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On January 25 2022 05:25 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine. People said the same about Nazi Germany. The basic assumption I am making is that we have no reason to see Ukraine as the end of Russia's desires. We have every reason to think Ukraine will just make it easier for Russia to take even more. Placating Russia is a fantasy that I don't think has any merit.
Nuclear Weapons exist. If you go to war with a nuclear super power you better be sure they wont use them or there will be MAD and we end the planet as we know it.
This is nothing like Germany.
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On January 25 2022 05:26 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:23 Kreuger wrote:On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine. Ofcourse, but what ir Russia sets their eyes on Poland, baltic states etc aftter Ukraina. At what country do you say stop? Russia can say the same about NATO (not invading, but adding adversaries) This is why the whole situation is stupid. Im convinced none of this would be happening if we didnt start discussing the expansion of NATO into areas we dont really want to go to war over anyway. The goal should have been status quo with trying to fix environment, standard of living, etc.
Its not like NATO is forcing an expansion, we are talking about soverign states wishing to join to have protection against a aggressive neighbour. If Russia would have been a democracy and wasnt making threats of invasion there wouldnt have been a desire to join.
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On January 25 2022 05:27 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:25 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine. People said the same about Nazi Germany. The basic assumption I am making is that we have no reason to see Ukraine as the end of Russia's desires. We have every reason to think Ukraine will just make it easier for Russia to take even more. Placating Russia is a fantasy that I don't think has any merit. Nuclear Weapons exist. If you go to war with a nuclear super power you better be sure they wont use them or there will be MAD and we end the planet as we know it. This is nothing like Germany.
With the insanities of the past looking at our history, it wouldn't even be too far off as a possibility. Arguing over comparatively tiny strips of land without finishing the thought seems to be en vogue. And having to think about that in the best times to live in, all things considered, is a bit ridiculous.
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On January 25 2022 05:26 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:23 Kreuger wrote:On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine. Ofcourse, but what ir Russia sets their eyes on Poland, baltic states etc aftter Ukraina. At what country do you say stop? Russia can say the same about NATO (not invading, but adding adversaries) This is why the whole situation is stupid. Im convinced none of this would be happening if we didnt start discussing the expansion of NATO into areas we dont really want to go to war over anyway. The goal should have been status quo with trying to fix environment, standard of living, etc.
They can say that, but it would be incredibly dishonest propaganda.
Countries actually want to join NATO. Countries don't actually want to be invaded by Russia. In fact, the threat of being invaded by Russia is one of the main reasons countries want to join NATO.
Russia has this weird idea that they should be in control of all the previous USSR and adjacent states. Those countries would very much like to not be controlled by Russia again.
They only seem to make that decision after the Russian troops are already in their country, when asked by armed Russian soldiers. Also, any election held by Putins Russia is immediately not to be believed, because there is 0 chance that it doesn't report the result Putin wants it to.
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On January 25 2022 05:27 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:25 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine. People said the same about Nazi Germany. The basic assumption I am making is that we have no reason to see Ukraine as the end of Russia's desires. We have every reason to think Ukraine will just make it easier for Russia to take even more. Placating Russia is a fantasy that I don't think has any merit. Nuclear Weapons exist. If you go to war with a nuclear super power you better be sure they wont use them or there will be MAD and we end the planet as we know it. This is nothing like Germany.
So then what is the conclusion to this logic? What if Russia tried to take Germany? What do we do then? France? Where exactly is this worth violence? Or is what you are saying that Russia should be permitted to occupy any country so long as that country does not have nukes?
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On January 25 2022 05:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 05:27 Sadist wrote:On January 25 2022 05:25 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 25 2022 05:08 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2022 05:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Are people actually advocating that the US/NATO should go to war with Russia if they invade Ukraine? Putting the whole Western countries training Nazis aside, it seems clear that Russia wants to undo the geopolitical swing of the leadership Western countries helped remove and replace in Ukraine. That said, I don't think annexing Ukraine would justify or make reasonable US/NATO troops and war with Russia either. In what theoretical taking of land would war with Russia be justified to you? Poland? Where do you draw the line and say "If Russia did (blank), that would fulfill my minimum requirement"? Is it that you think this is the extent of Russia's hopes for the region and they'll just play nice once they have Ukraine? Surely a war between superpowers would be far more damaging than Russia taking Ukraine. People said the same about Nazi Germany. The basic assumption I am making is that we have no reason to see Ukraine as the end of Russia's desires. We have every reason to think Ukraine will just make it easier for Russia to take even more. Placating Russia is a fantasy that I don't think has any merit. Nuclear Weapons exist. If you go to war with a nuclear super power you better be sure they wont use them or there will be MAD and we end the planet as we know it. This is nothing like Germany. So then what is the conclusion to this logic? What if Russia tried to take Germany? What do we do then? France? Where exactly is this worth violence? Or is what you are saying that Russia should be permitted to occupy any country so long as that country does not have nukes?
What is your conclusion? Let's launch some missiles after arguing over two enclaves where Russians and Ukrainians fight over their passports and play fallout irl if we don't get vaporized? In the 70s the average person was more conscious about this, houses built in Austria during that time had mandatory bunkers that nowadays wouldn't even save you. The only way to win is not to play.
Speaking of which. NORAD had a malfunction back then which made it look like Russian missiles were inbound and the guys in the US army (who are heroes) who decided not to instantly retaliate might think differently.
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