EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3453
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Sadist
United States7242 Posts
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
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georgehabadasher
Taiwan23 Posts
On January 25 2022 10:54 Mohdoo wrote: This isn't the 1300s. All major governments know everything about every country. We aren't communicating by sending lamb shanks at this point. That’s actually a quote from Neville Chamberlain about Germany annexing the Sudetenland | ||
KwarK
United States42778 Posts
On January 25 2022 10:54 Mohdoo wrote: This isn't the 1300s. All major governments know everything about every country. We aren't communicating by sending lamb shanks at this point. https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/chamberlain-addresses-the-nation-on-his-negotiations-for-peace/zjrjgwx He was quoting Chamberlain. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25470 Posts
Indeed what are the attitudes of Average Josef in Russia come to mention it. I’m not sure how contemporaneous the paraphrased points were, a pundit in a podcast brought up Mikhail Gorbachev being rather scathing of how Russia was integrated in the post-Soviet era. Basically open your markets so we can make money sure, but pull you into shared institutions, or reform vestigial Cold War ones? Nah you’re alright. Somewhat passes the smell test, albeit I’m not especially well versed. Of course now we’ve got Putin’s brand of nationalism filling the void and it’s very much a different problem to deal with. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
What is the sentiment on the ground in the Ukraine to all this? That's a rather asinine question, don't you think? Let me think. There's 100.000 soldiers at the border, ready to invade your country - the country that you want to be in NATO, and even more so in the european union (both enjoy majority support in the Ukraine according to polls). I wonder how okay Ukrainians are with being invaded by the country that let millions of your fellow countrymen die by starvation, pushing them to cannibalism even. I especially wonder what kind of sentiment the survivors of said Holodomor hold. What do you think? edit: What do you think would be the sentiment in Poland if germany suddenly vastly ramped up its military manufacturing, pushing out Leo 2A7s and Pumas by the hundreds (not that they could, but hypothetically), and concentrate them at their border together with Skyshield and MANTIS, mumbling something about Lebensraum? I'm curious, since it's not entirely immediately obvious to me. Also: in december last year, 72% of ukrainians considered russia a hostile state. 12% consider russia an ally. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25470 Posts
On January 25 2022 12:45 m4ini wrote: That's a rather asinine question, don't you think? Let me think. There's 100.000 soldiers at the border, ready to invade your country - the country that you want to be in NATO, and even more so in the european union (both enjoy majority support in the Ukraine according to polls). I wonder how okay Ukrainians are with being invaded by the country that let millions of your fellow countrymen die by starvation, pushing them to cannibalism even. I especially wonder what kind of sentiment the survivors of said Holodomor hold. What do you think? edit: What do you think would be the sentiment in Poland if germany suddenly vastly ramped up its military manufacturing, pushing out Leo 2A7s and Pumas by the hundreds (not that they could, but hypothetically), and concentrate them at their border together with Skyshield and MANTIS, mumbling something about Lebensraum? I'm curious, since it's not entirely immediately obvious to me. Also: in december last year, 72% of ukrainians considered russia a hostile state. 12% consider russia an ally. Not really, it’s quite an important factor. Forcibly annexing somewhere is egregious behaviour, I can only speak to my own nation but if we were annexed by the Republic there’d be a sizeable amount of people rather chuffed by that. But thanks for the numbers, thought there may be a Liquidian from there or with family there to add some context. As I’ve seen rather conflicting viewpoints, some seem rather blatant as propaganda goes, but I’m not especially au fait with Ukrainian politics or their history. Was just an earnest question to plug some knowledge gaps, not equivocation for Russian benefit | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
On January 25 2022 14:35 WombaT wrote: Not really, it’s quite an important factor. Forcibly annexing somewhere is egregious behaviour, I can only speak to my own nation but if we were annexed by the Republic there’d be a sizeable amount of people rather chuffed by that. But thanks for the numbers, thought there may be a Liquidian from there or with family there to add some context. As I’ve seen rather conflicting viewpoints, some seem rather blatant as propaganda goes, but I’m not especially au fait with Ukrainian politics or their history. Was just an earnest question to plug some knowledge gaps, not equivocation for Russian benefit Just to be clear, my message was not referring to you. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9658 Posts
I mean, what if they don't stop at building settlements in Palestinian territory and decide to build them all over the world? Best have a war, eh? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9658 Posts
On January 26 2022 01:29 JimmiC wrote: I mean yes, if Israel invaded the Ukraine Nato should stop them with force. You do know that there is border conflicts all over the world often. India, Pakistan, China are constantly fighting for example. That's exactly my point. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21705 Posts
On January 26 2022 01:18 Jockmcplop wrote: Plenty of people in this thread have previously expressed that they don't agree with Israel's occupation of Palestine.I wonder if all the people hankering for a good old war with Russia over Ukraine think the same thing about Israel taking territory that isn't theirs? I mean, what if they don't stop at building settlements in Palestinian territory and decide to build them all over the world? Best have a war, eh? This is not the gotya you were hoping for. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9658 Posts
On January 26 2022 02:16 Gorsameth wrote: Plenty of people in this thread have previously expressed that they don't agree with Israel's occupation of Palestine. This is not the gotya you were hoping for. It wasn't supposed to be a gotya. My point is that going to war is not seen as a valid solution to those problems. Russia are pretty evil, yeah, but personally I don't see America having a war with them as a solution to that. | ||
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21705 Posts
On January 26 2022 02:46 Jockmcplop wrote: Right, so what are the other options?It wasn't supposed to be a gotya. My point is that going to war is not seen as a valid solution to those problems. Russia are pretty evil, yeah, but personally I don't see America having a war with them as a solution to that. We can let Russia have Ukraine and hope they settle for that. And not end up in this exact same spot with another country in a few years. We can draw a line in the sand and say no futher or else. Or we can do what? Russia's assurance they will play nice isn't worth anything after they already broke the existing agreement when they annexed Crimea. Already a bunch of sanctions on Russia that doesn't seem to deter them. No one wants war, but what other options are there to put on the table? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9658 Posts
On January 26 2022 02:53 Gorsameth wrote: Right, so what are the other options? We can let Russia have Ukraine and hope they settle for that. And not end up in this exact same spot with another country in a few years. We can draw a line in the sand and say no futher or else. Or we can do what? Russia's assurance they will play nice isn't worth anything after they already broke the existing agreement when they annexed Crimea. Already a bunch of sanctions on Russia that doesn't seem to deter them. No one wants war, but what other options are there to put on the table? But if you dig down into the reasons for this war it is essentially to stop the unnecessary suffering of the Ukrainian people, right? How is having a huge war in their country going to do that? Would America be able to win? How long would it drag on for? How many dead are we looking at? If the US wants to increase sanctions on Russia and their allies I'm all for it. Non war escalation would be fine by me. Using war as a threat is fine. Military exercises and arming and training Ukrainians is fine. Actually going to war with Russia has to be an absolute last resort in response to an existential threat, and nothing less than an existential threat, because if there isn't one, war creates one. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On January 26 2022 02:58 Jockmcplop wrote: But if you dig down into the reasons for this war it is essentially to stop the unnecessary suffering of the Ukrainian people, right? If that were the main reason I don't think war would even be on the table. I think it is more a balance of power, worldwide ideological struggle kind of thing. The idea that if the invasion is allowed to happen, then Russia and other autocracies will redraw national boundaries at will. I don't disagree with you that war would be extremely costly though and should be a last resort. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18005 Posts
On January 26 2022 02:58 Jockmcplop wrote: But if you dig down into the reasons for this war it is essentially to stop the unnecessary suffering of the Ukrainian people, right? How is having a huge war in their country going to do that? Would America be able to win? How long would it drag on for? How many dead are we looking at? If the US wants to increase sanctions on Russia and their allies I'm all for it. Non war escalation would be fine by me. Using war as a threat is fine. Military exercises and arming and training Ukrainians is fine. Actually going to war with Russia has to be an absolute last resort in response to an existential threat, and nothing less than an existential threat, because if there isn't one, war creates one. Don't the Ukrainians consider Russia launching a full scale invasion as an existential threat? It's not as if people are advocating a preemptive strike. They are advocating that there be the military capacity and will to thwart Russia's invasion into Ukraine, should that happen. I don't think people are even considering, for instance, an assault to return Crimea to Ukrainian rule or end the uprising in eastern Ukraine. A military response is only being contemplated if Russia crosses the line in the sand that is the current Ukrainian border. | ||
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