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On December 20 2021 03:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 02:46 Kyadytim wrote:On December 19 2021 14:22 Mohdoo wrote:https://truthout.org/articles/young-voters-say-they-disapprove-of-bidens-performance-by-nearly-2-to-1-margin/This is a death sentence for 2022. Young voters have very nimble perspectives and enthusiasm. This can completely flip. But it will require hard, actual changes. All student loan interest needs to be wiped at the absolute minimum. I currently do not plan to vote in 2022. I won’t vote for a republican, but I am actually going to not vote in 2022 if student loans actually go back to what they were or if they only toss us a tiny bone. Trump vastly outperforming democrats in middle class financial relief is an abomination and a disgrace. I can’t support this party right now. As it stands, Trump was significantly better for the lower and middle class than Biden. Student loans pause and child tax credit both going away is a really giant change in the amount of money people have. It’s honestly crazy to realize what a big difference it is. Edit: the big thing that kinda sealed the deal for me was Pelosi openly saying she ought to be able to insider trade. That contextualized why nothing I want is getting done: utter and complete arrogance. It really does come down to arrogance, not being out of touch. They have teams of data scientists nowadays. The party isn’t relying on town hall meetings to figure out what people want. They don’t care. On December 20 2021 00:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Manchin went on Fox and says he won't vote for BBB because he's concerned about adding to the national debt. This is probably the deathblow to the bill and what was going to be Biden's signature legislation. This was despite the White House saying a few days ago that talks were still going on, Manchin didn't entirely thumb it down and they believed it could pass by early next year. Either there's a newfound scramble for negotiations and they let Manchin write the bill or it goes down in flames entirely. Biden really can't afford to let this bill falter. I generally agree with Mohdoo that democrats are a fucking disappointment and I hate them. But also, Republicans are uncomfortably close (possibly in reach on a wave election, thanks for nothing Manchin) to controlling 3/4 of state legislatures and being able to unilaterally amend the constitution however they please, which is fucking terrifying and probably the end of the USA as a nation. I’m numb to it and I’m a Canadian citizen who easily meets the requirements for immigration to most European countries. If the country goes the way you’re describing, it was never worth saving to begin with. I’ll move my family somewhere better long before anything actually bad happens. Oregon will likely have eroded in a way that I would have decided to (extremely sadly) left already. Truthfully, I don’t think that’ll happen. But if it does, I have an easy time waving goodbye to the people who caused the problem to begin with.
I'm kind of stuck in the US, so "Eh, just let the Republicans win" is not a plan I'm particularly a fan of.
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United States42008 Posts
On December 20 2021 03:03 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 02:51 farvacola wrote:On December 20 2021 02:46 Kyadytim wrote:On December 19 2021 14:22 Mohdoo wrote:https://truthout.org/articles/young-voters-say-they-disapprove-of-bidens-performance-by-nearly-2-to-1-margin/This is a death sentence for 2022. Young voters have very nimble perspectives and enthusiasm. This can completely flip. But it will require hard, actual changes. All student loan interest needs to be wiped at the absolute minimum. I currently do not plan to vote in 2022. I won’t vote for a republican, but I am actually going to not vote in 2022 if student loans actually go back to what they were or if they only toss us a tiny bone. Trump vastly outperforming democrats in middle class financial relief is an abomination and a disgrace. I can’t support this party right now. As it stands, Trump was significantly better for the lower and middle class than Biden. Student loans pause and child tax credit both going away is a really giant change in the amount of money people have. It’s honestly crazy to realize what a big difference it is. Edit: the big thing that kinda sealed the deal for me was Pelosi openly saying she ought to be able to insider trade. That contextualized why nothing I want is getting done: utter and complete arrogance. It really does come down to arrogance, not being out of touch. They have teams of data scientists nowadays. The party isn’t relying on town hall meetings to figure out what people want. They don’t care. On December 20 2021 00:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Manchin went on Fox and says he won't vote for BBB because he's concerned about adding to the national debt. This is probably the deathblow to the bill and what was going to be Biden's signature legislation. This was despite the White House saying a few days ago that talks were still going on, Manchin didn't entirely thumb it down and they believed it could pass by early next year. Either there's a newfound scramble for negotiations and they let Manchin write the bill or it goes down in flames entirely. Biden really can't afford to let this bill falter. I generally agree with Mohdoo that democrats are a fucking disappointment and I hate them. But also, Republicans are uncomfortably close (possibly in reach on a wave election, thanks for nothing Manchin) to controlling 3/4 of state legislatures and being able to unilaterally amend the constitution however they please, which is fucking terrifying and probably the end of the USA as a nation. Perhaps the US needs an ending of some sort before it or its people can begin doing what needs to be done. Whatever shakes out won’t be pretty, but the status quo cannot hold for much longer at this rate. Whatever comes out of Republicans rewriting the constitution is going to be some sort of authoritarian Christian theocracy hellscape, where the rules of elections have been edited so that WASPs can never lose their grip on power again.
So the original constitution then?
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On December 20 2021 03:41 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 03:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 20 2021 02:46 Kyadytim wrote:On December 19 2021 14:22 Mohdoo wrote:https://truthout.org/articles/young-voters-say-they-disapprove-of-bidens-performance-by-nearly-2-to-1-margin/This is a death sentence for 2022. Young voters have very nimble perspectives and enthusiasm. This can completely flip. But it will require hard, actual changes. All student loan interest needs to be wiped at the absolute minimum. I currently do not plan to vote in 2022. I won’t vote for a republican, but I am actually going to not vote in 2022 if student loans actually go back to what they were or if they only toss us a tiny bone. Trump vastly outperforming democrats in middle class financial relief is an abomination and a disgrace. I can’t support this party right now. As it stands, Trump was significantly better for the lower and middle class than Biden. Student loans pause and child tax credit both going away is a really giant change in the amount of money people have. It’s honestly crazy to realize what a big difference it is. Edit: the big thing that kinda sealed the deal for me was Pelosi openly saying she ought to be able to insider trade. That contextualized why nothing I want is getting done: utter and complete arrogance. It really does come down to arrogance, not being out of touch. They have teams of data scientists nowadays. The party isn’t relying on town hall meetings to figure out what people want. They don’t care. On December 20 2021 00:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Manchin went on Fox and says he won't vote for BBB because he's concerned about adding to the national debt. This is probably the deathblow to the bill and what was going to be Biden's signature legislation. This was despite the White House saying a few days ago that talks were still going on, Manchin didn't entirely thumb it down and they believed it could pass by early next year. Either there's a newfound scramble for negotiations and they let Manchin write the bill or it goes down in flames entirely. Biden really can't afford to let this bill falter. I generally agree with Mohdoo that democrats are a fucking disappointment and I hate them. But also, Republicans are uncomfortably close (possibly in reach on a wave election, thanks for nothing Manchin) to controlling 3/4 of state legislatures and being able to unilaterally amend the constitution however they please, which is fucking terrifying and probably the end of the USA as a nation. I’m numb to it and I’m a Canadian citizen who easily meets the requirements for immigration to most European countries. If the country goes the way you’re describing, it was never worth saving to begin with. I’ll move my family somewhere better long before anything actually bad happens. Oregon will likely have eroded in a way that I would have decided to (extremely sadly) left already. Truthfully, I don’t think that’ll happen. But if it does, I have an easy time waving goodbye to the people who caused the problem to begin with. I'm kind of stuck in the US, so "Eh, just let the Republicans win" is not a plan I'm particularly a fan of.
I have the ability to not vote this year (assuming everything continues as is) because I live near Portland Oregon. My entire zip code could not vote and we’d be firmly blue in all regards. So I can kind of pretend I am letting the world kill itself. In reality, I can afford to make a stand because I know it’s not actually doing anything.
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On December 20 2021 03:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 03:03 Kyadytim wrote:On December 20 2021 02:51 farvacola wrote:On December 20 2021 02:46 Kyadytim wrote:On December 19 2021 14:22 Mohdoo wrote:https://truthout.org/articles/young-voters-say-they-disapprove-of-bidens-performance-by-nearly-2-to-1-margin/This is a death sentence for 2022. Young voters have very nimble perspectives and enthusiasm. This can completely flip. But it will require hard, actual changes. All student loan interest needs to be wiped at the absolute minimum. I currently do not plan to vote in 2022. I won’t vote for a republican, but I am actually going to not vote in 2022 if student loans actually go back to what they were or if they only toss us a tiny bone. Trump vastly outperforming democrats in middle class financial relief is an abomination and a disgrace. I can’t support this party right now. As it stands, Trump was significantly better for the lower and middle class than Biden. Student loans pause and child tax credit both going away is a really giant change in the amount of money people have. It’s honestly crazy to realize what a big difference it is. Edit: the big thing that kinda sealed the deal for me was Pelosi openly saying she ought to be able to insider trade. That contextualized why nothing I want is getting done: utter and complete arrogance. It really does come down to arrogance, not being out of touch. They have teams of data scientists nowadays. The party isn’t relying on town hall meetings to figure out what people want. They don’t care. On December 20 2021 00:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Manchin went on Fox and says he won't vote for BBB because he's concerned about adding to the national debt. This is probably the deathblow to the bill and what was going to be Biden's signature legislation. This was despite the White House saying a few days ago that talks were still going on, Manchin didn't entirely thumb it down and they believed it could pass by early next year. Either there's a newfound scramble for negotiations and they let Manchin write the bill or it goes down in flames entirely. Biden really can't afford to let this bill falter. I generally agree with Mohdoo that democrats are a fucking disappointment and I hate them. But also, Republicans are uncomfortably close (possibly in reach on a wave election, thanks for nothing Manchin) to controlling 3/4 of state legislatures and being able to unilaterally amend the constitution however they please, which is fucking terrifying and probably the end of the USA as a nation. Perhaps the US needs an ending of some sort before it or its people can begin doing what needs to be done. Whatever shakes out won’t be pretty, but the status quo cannot hold for much longer at this rate. Whatever comes out of Republicans rewriting the constitution is going to be some sort of authoritarian Christian theocracy hellscape, where the rules of elections have been edited so that WASPs can never lose their grip on power again. So the original constitution then?
You're not wrong and I hate it. But yeah, basically the original constitution, except without all of the bits and pieces that allowed progress on human rights to be made.
I expect that states' rights and parts of the bill of rights disappear in favor of a very strong federal government that can enforce Republican laws like voter suppression on blue states, nationalize (and then probably sell off to prominent conservatives) corporations that are not acting in a way conservatives approve of, etc.
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Separately, can anyone think of a modern political blunder both as intense and obvious as voting for the infrastructure bill before BBB? Has any political party had a blunder so obvious in recent memory?
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On December 20 2021 03:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 03:41 Kyadytim wrote:On December 20 2021 03:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 20 2021 02:46 Kyadytim wrote:On December 19 2021 14:22 Mohdoo wrote:https://truthout.org/articles/young-voters-say-they-disapprove-of-bidens-performance-by-nearly-2-to-1-margin/This is a death sentence for 2022. Young voters have very nimble perspectives and enthusiasm. This can completely flip. But it will require hard, actual changes. All student loan interest needs to be wiped at the absolute minimum. I currently do not plan to vote in 2022. I won’t vote for a republican, but I am actually going to not vote in 2022 if student loans actually go back to what they were or if they only toss us a tiny bone. Trump vastly outperforming democrats in middle class financial relief is an abomination and a disgrace. I can’t support this party right now. As it stands, Trump was significantly better for the lower and middle class than Biden. Student loans pause and child tax credit both going away is a really giant change in the amount of money people have. It’s honestly crazy to realize what a big difference it is. Edit: the big thing that kinda sealed the deal for me was Pelosi openly saying she ought to be able to insider trade. That contextualized why nothing I want is getting done: utter and complete arrogance. It really does come down to arrogance, not being out of touch. They have teams of data scientists nowadays. The party isn’t relying on town hall meetings to figure out what people want. They don’t care. On December 20 2021 00:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Manchin went on Fox and says he won't vote for BBB because he's concerned about adding to the national debt. This is probably the deathblow to the bill and what was going to be Biden's signature legislation. This was despite the White House saying a few days ago that talks were still going on, Manchin didn't entirely thumb it down and they believed it could pass by early next year. Either there's a newfound scramble for negotiations and they let Manchin write the bill or it goes down in flames entirely. Biden really can't afford to let this bill falter. I generally agree with Mohdoo that democrats are a fucking disappointment and I hate them. But also, Republicans are uncomfortably close (possibly in reach on a wave election, thanks for nothing Manchin) to controlling 3/4 of state legislatures and being able to unilaterally amend the constitution however they please, which is fucking terrifying and probably the end of the USA as a nation. I’m numb to it and I’m a Canadian citizen who easily meets the requirements for immigration to most European countries. If the country goes the way you’re describing, it was never worth saving to begin with. I’ll move my family somewhere better long before anything actually bad happens. Oregon will likely have eroded in a way that I would have decided to (extremely sadly) left already. Truthfully, I don’t think that’ll happen. But if it does, I have an easy time waving goodbye to the people who caused the problem to begin with. I'm kind of stuck in the US, so "Eh, just let the Republicans win" is not a plan I'm particularly a fan of. I have the ability to not vote this year (assuming everything continues as is) because I live near Portland Oregon. My entire zip code could not vote and we’d be firmly blue in all regards. So I can kind of pretend I am letting the world kill itself. In reality, I can afford to make a stand because I know it’s not actually doing anything.
That's fair. I just hate seeing the argument, because it can persuade people whose vote would actually make a difference.
On December 20 2021 03:49 Mohdoo wrote:
Separately, can anyone think of a modern political blunder both as intense and obvious as voting for the infrastructure bill before BBB? Has any political party had a blunder so obvious in recent memory?
Iirc, there was some time constraint on the infrastructure bill.
If you'd asked me six months ago if I thought Democratic congresspeople could trust promises made by other Democratic congresspeople, I would have had a far more positive answer than I do right now. Also, I'm not sure that Manchin wouldn't have found a way to kill the infrastructure bill as well as opposed to passing any sort of BBB bill.
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On December 20 2021 03:50 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 03:47 Mohdoo wrote:On December 20 2021 03:41 Kyadytim wrote:On December 20 2021 03:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 20 2021 02:46 Kyadytim wrote:On December 19 2021 14:22 Mohdoo wrote:https://truthout.org/articles/young-voters-say-they-disapprove-of-bidens-performance-by-nearly-2-to-1-margin/This is a death sentence for 2022. Young voters have very nimble perspectives and enthusiasm. This can completely flip. But it will require hard, actual changes. All student loan interest needs to be wiped at the absolute minimum. I currently do not plan to vote in 2022. I won’t vote for a republican, but I am actually going to not vote in 2022 if student loans actually go back to what they were or if they only toss us a tiny bone. Trump vastly outperforming democrats in middle class financial relief is an abomination and a disgrace. I can’t support this party right now. As it stands, Trump was significantly better for the lower and middle class than Biden. Student loans pause and child tax credit both going away is a really giant change in the amount of money people have. It’s honestly crazy to realize what a big difference it is. Edit: the big thing that kinda sealed the deal for me was Pelosi openly saying she ought to be able to insider trade. That contextualized why nothing I want is getting done: utter and complete arrogance. It really does come down to arrogance, not being out of touch. They have teams of data scientists nowadays. The party isn’t relying on town hall meetings to figure out what people want. They don’t care. On December 20 2021 00:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Manchin went on Fox and says he won't vote for BBB because he's concerned about adding to the national debt. This is probably the deathblow to the bill and what was going to be Biden's signature legislation. This was despite the White House saying a few days ago that talks were still going on, Manchin didn't entirely thumb it down and they believed it could pass by early next year. Either there's a newfound scramble for negotiations and they let Manchin write the bill or it goes down in flames entirely. Biden really can't afford to let this bill falter. I generally agree with Mohdoo that democrats are a fucking disappointment and I hate them. But also, Republicans are uncomfortably close (possibly in reach on a wave election, thanks for nothing Manchin) to controlling 3/4 of state legislatures and being able to unilaterally amend the constitution however they please, which is fucking terrifying and probably the end of the USA as a nation. I’m numb to it and I’m a Canadian citizen who easily meets the requirements for immigration to most European countries. If the country goes the way you’re describing, it was never worth saving to begin with. I’ll move my family somewhere better long before anything actually bad happens. Oregon will likely have eroded in a way that I would have decided to (extremely sadly) left already. Truthfully, I don’t think that’ll happen. But if it does, I have an easy time waving goodbye to the people who caused the problem to begin with. I'm kind of stuck in the US, so "Eh, just let the Republicans win" is not a plan I'm particularly a fan of. I have the ability to not vote this year (assuming everything continues as is) because I live near Portland Oregon. My entire zip code could not vote and we’d be firmly blue in all regards. So I can kind of pretend I am letting the world kill itself. In reality, I can afford to make a stand because I know it’s not actually doing anything. That's fair. I just hate seeing the argument, because it can persuade people whose vote would actually make a difference.
If I lived in a purple state I’d essentially sacrifice my entire mental health fighting Cletus every day of the week. I’ve often wondered if I am executing a smaller form of depraved indifference by choosing to live in Oregon when I could spread my ideology and fiery enthusiasm to a state that needs it more. I am essentially over consuming freedom while other areas suffer from too little. And I am the type of person who actually speaks to and inspires people IRL so more folks like me moving to purple states would actually be a good thing. By no means am I saying I’m the next Obama, but I am someone who speaks and acts while lemmings walk. It’s a weird dilemma.
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On December 20 2021 03:49 Mohdoo wrote:
Separately, can anyone think of a modern political blunder both as intense and obvious as voting for the infrastructure bill before BBB? Has any political party had a blunder so obvious in recent memory? The last decade should have taught Democrats better, they fact it apparently hasn't means its either on purpose or so unbearably naïve that those in power should not be.
But considering the only electoral alternative tried to stage a coup and still isn't willing to come to terms with that there is no alternative.
If you care about living in a better country there is only 1 option, leave America. Because America isn't going to change.
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On December 20 2021 02:51 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 02:46 Kyadytim wrote:On December 19 2021 14:22 Mohdoo wrote:https://truthout.org/articles/young-voters-say-they-disapprove-of-bidens-performance-by-nearly-2-to-1-margin/This is a death sentence for 2022. Young voters have very nimble perspectives and enthusiasm. This can completely flip. But it will require hard, actual changes. All student loan interest needs to be wiped at the absolute minimum. I currently do not plan to vote in 2022. I won’t vote for a republican, but I am actually going to not vote in 2022 if student loans actually go back to what they were or if they only toss us a tiny bone. Trump vastly outperforming democrats in middle class financial relief is an abomination and a disgrace. I can’t support this party right now. As it stands, Trump was significantly better for the lower and middle class than Biden. Student loans pause and child tax credit both going away is a really giant change in the amount of money people have. It’s honestly crazy to realize what a big difference it is. Edit: the big thing that kinda sealed the deal for me was Pelosi openly saying she ought to be able to insider trade. That contextualized why nothing I want is getting done: utter and complete arrogance. It really does come down to arrogance, not being out of touch. They have teams of data scientists nowadays. The party isn’t relying on town hall meetings to figure out what people want. They don’t care. On December 20 2021 00:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Manchin went on Fox and says he won't vote for BBB because he's concerned about adding to the national debt. This is probably the deathblow to the bill and what was going to be Biden's signature legislation. This was despite the White House saying a few days ago that talks were still going on, Manchin didn't entirely thumb it down and they believed it could pass by early next year. Either there's a newfound scramble for negotiations and they let Manchin write the bill or it goes down in flames entirely. Biden really can't afford to let this bill falter. I generally agree with Mohdoo that democrats are a fucking disappointment and I hate them. But also, Republicans are uncomfortably close (possibly in reach on a wave election, thanks for nothing Manchin) to controlling 3/4 of state legislatures and being able to unilaterally amend the constitution however they please, which is fucking terrifying and probably the end of the USA as a nation. Perhaps the US needs an ending of some sort before it or its people can begin doing what needs to be done. Whatever shakes out won’t be pretty, but the status quo cannot hold for much longer at this rate.
I really thought Trump's election would end the status quo one way or another. Perhaps it has, but it's just been a slow burn? I feel like sweeping positive change cannot happen while the country has poisonous propaganda continually pumped into it by the likes of FOX, social media, and to a lesser extent the "left" cable networks too. They are so sophisticated at this point at keeping people loyal and glued, even while feeding them outrageous lies. I don't know what could loosen their power, or if new incarnations wouldn't just fill the vacuum if they were gone.
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On December 20 2021 03:49 Mohdoo wrote:
Separately, can anyone think of a modern political blunder both as intense and obvious as voting for the infrastructure bill before BBB? Has any political party had a blunder so obvious in recent memory?
I think its pretty clear at this point that he was never going to get BBB through and the infrastructure bill was either going to be passed first or not at all.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
BBB is like the $15 minimum wage from early 2021 - a good talking point to pay lip service to the progressives, but they already know that #50 and #49 are going to say no. And if they didn't, it would be #48's time to shine and stand in opposition. They might pass something significantly smaller in scope, so that they can have some press conference fanfare featuring Kamala Harris, but the larger bill is clearly dead. They're well behind "resume student loans" in the queue of Biden administration priorities.
On December 20 2021 03:41 Kyadytim wrote:
I'm kind of stuck in the US, so "Eh, just let the Republicans win" is not a plan I'm particularly a fan of.
Its pretty much always true that "leave the country" is a strategy for the few, generally those who are the most well-off financially. Most people have to stay and deal with the decay.
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BBB needs to be rebraned as family focused. Do all the family stuff and call it a day. BBB was going to be a transformative legislation but we don't live in a country that is transformative minded. Its the same conversation about why we have such a slim majority in the senate. Democracy. Lots of cletus out there.
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Lol, if you want Joe Manchin to vote for BBB you just have to ask his sponsors what they want the bill to be.
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On December 20 2021 06:47 Zambrah wrote:
Lol, if you want Joe Manchin to vote for BBB you just have to ask his sponsors what they want the bill to be.
Climate change and pharma stuff killed BBB. The other stuff was fine but ultimately Manchin isn't going to harm his daughter's industry (pharma) or his donors industry (coal). It was always incredibly misguided to try to get everything in the bill. Domestic spending that doesn't conflict with pharma or coal was always the way to go.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Maybe just avoid harming corporate profits entirely, to be safe.
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Im not really convinced Manchin was ever really going to vote for anything that did anything meaningful. Maybe something that had zero conflict with his sponsors and spent the minimal possible amount of money, but that would be useless and dumb.
I hope this is a wake up call for people to stop relying on Joe Manchin and letting spoilers make the Democrats look so unfathomably stupid. They look dumb enough even when their own party isnt routinely spoilering them, lol
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Need to focus on winning other states. Cant expect to pass much with such slim margins.
People are pissed that 1 person can nuke a bill but thats the reality of democracy. We need to win more seats.
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Good luck with that when you have spoilers in your party making everyone else in the party look inept.
Democrats are never going to win meaningfully with Manchins and Sinemas in their party.
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On December 20 2021 09:12 Zambrah wrote:
Good luck with that when you have spoilers in your party making everyone else in the party look inept.
Democrats are never going to win meaningfully with Manchins and Sinemas in their party.
Fair enough. I would think it needs to start at the local and state level. You cant give up all of these states to Republicans. For being a minority party its shocking how many states they run.
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You cant have them in the party though, you wont win local and state elections when you have people in your party making your party look dumb and incompetent. The first thing that has to happen is Democrats have to yeet the spoilers, youre either on board with everything on a list of major priorities or you aren't in the party.
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EPT
