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On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. edit: You seem to be approaching this from a common sense POV, which is great, but your common sense is going to fail if you want to argue that him going to the protest with his AR was completely unrelated to him wishing he had an AR to shoot the fools. Especially when you add that his friend had to buy the gun for him because he couldn't buy it himself.
This wasn't someone casually bringing his gun because he was going somewhere potentially dangerous. He went out of his way to acquire an AR-15.
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On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen.
On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on.
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On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on.
What does Rosenbaum have to do with it? There is literally no point in judging him since he is dead. If he wasn't I am sure he would be judged just as harshly here.
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On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on.
I haven't even mentioned Rosenbaum or what I think of him. He was an absolute moron and a violent idiot for what he did and he deserved to be jailed.
When it comes to your hero, when someone says they want to do something, and then 15 days later they do it, I assume that when they say they wanted to do it they were telling the truth.
You seem to have some evidence that would suggest he wasn't being truthful. I'd like to hear it, because all the other evidence tells me that he did what he wanted to do.
I can understand kids talking shit to their friends. It happens all the time. When someone ends up doing the shit they were talking about it changes things.
What I can't believe is this incredible conceit that the guy who wanted an AR to shoot looters ended up exactly where the looters were with an AR and this was somehow completely unrelated to what he said.
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On November 22 2021 01:41 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. What does Rosenbaum have to do with it? There is literally no point in judging him since he is dead. If he wasn't I am sure he would be judged just as harshly here.
To highlight the difference between how people are judged. You think it's because one died and one did not, I don't believe that at all. I think it's purely down to political sides.
Kyle: 15 days ago says 'shoot at some looters' casually: He is a mass shooter wannabe who engineered this situation to just to kill people.
Rosenbaum: That night says 'I'm going to kill you' directly to his victim: It wasn't really his fault, Kyle manipulated him into attacking.
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On November 22 2021 01:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. I haven't even mentioned Rosenbaum or what I think of him. He was an absolute moron and a violent idiot for what he did and he deserved to be jailed. When it comes to your hero, when someone says they want to do something, and then 15 days later they do it, I assume that when they say they wanted to do it they were telling the truth. You seem to have some evidence that would suggest he wasn't being truthful. I'd like to hear it, because all the other evidence tells me that he did what he wanted to do. I can understand kids talking shit to their friends. It happens all the time. When someone ends up doing the shit they were talking about it changes things. What I can't believe is this incredible conceit that the guy who wanted an AR to shoot looters ended up exactly where the looters were with an AR and this was somehow completely unrelated to what he said. He is not my hero. Quit it with this "you're defending him you must be on his side" bullshit.
Address the point that he didn't do what he said and stop ignoring it.
He never fired at anybody for looting.
He was there all night and until he was attacked he never shot at anybody. There is no indication he would have started shooting at looters at any point.
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On November 22 2021 01:46 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:41 justanothertownie wrote:On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. What does Rosenbaum have to do with it? There is literally no point in judging him since he is dead. If he wasn't I am sure he would be judged just as harshly here. To highlight the difference between how people are judged. You think it's because one died and one did not, I don't believe that at all. I think it's purely down to political sides. Kyle: 15 days ago says 'shoot at some looters' casually: He is a mass shooter wannabe who engineered this situation to just to kill people. Rosenbaum: That night says 'I'm going to kill you' directly to his victim: It wasn't really his fault, Kyle manipulated him into attacking.
You don't think kyle being alive and on trial would lead to more discussion about how to handle that than the other guy being dead? What is there to discuss about him? He was also at fault. More so than Kyle if you ask me but it is not very interesting to discuss consequences for a dead person.
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On November 22 2021 01:49 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. I haven't even mentioned Rosenbaum or what I think of him. He was an absolute moron and a violent idiot for what he did and he deserved to be jailed. When it comes to your hero, when someone says they want to do something, and then 15 days later they do it, I assume that when they say they wanted to do it they were telling the truth. You seem to have some evidence that would suggest he wasn't being truthful. I'd like to hear it, because all the other evidence tells me that he did what he wanted to do. I can understand kids talking shit to their friends. It happens all the time. When someone ends up doing the shit they were talking about it changes things. What I can't believe is this incredible conceit that the guy who wanted an AR to shoot looters ended up exactly where the looters were with an AR and this was somehow completely unrelated to what he said. He is not my hero. Quit it with this "you're defending him you must be on his side" bullshit. Address the point that he didn't do what he said and stop ignoring it. He never fired at anybody for looting. He was there all night and until he was attacked he never shot at anybody. There is no indication he would have started shooting at looters at any point.
Why was he there with an AR then?
Its very specific, what he said, and then the position he put himself in. Its not like i'm linking two basically unrelated things. He specifically said he wished he had an AR so he could shoot some looters, and then he got himself an AR and went to where the looters were.
But you go ahead and keep believing that what he said was just random words coming out of his mouth, and that it was just some incredible mindblowing coincidence that he ended up with an AR at the riot.
Of course, it could be that he didn't actually want to shoot some people and that he was just trying to prove something to himself and would have not actually done anything had he not been attacked. The fact remains, he made a dreadful mistake in going there with his AR. I'm not without empathy and I can see that this could have happened, but that fact doesn't 'unlink' his words and his actions.
I genuinely believe he wanted to go there and kill people. Why? Well he said he wanted an AR, he got himself an AR. He said he wanted to shoot at looters, so he went with his AR to where the looters were. He probably thought better of it once he got there, which allows him some leniency, but look at what the consequences were. I believe his words show that he was responsible, to some degree, for what happened.
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On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:
A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum!
You say, as though he didn't immediately follow it up by doing exactly that.
And no, 15 days is not a long time by almost any metric. If I express a desire to apply to new jobs, and 2 weeks later I apply to some jobs, nobody in their right mind would treat the saying and the doing as though they were a lifetime apart, they would assume there's some kind of connection, and that I did it because I wanted to. So it's odd that you bend over backwards to make this excuse for a shooter who killed 2 people.
We can't possibly establish a link between him wishing he could shoot people with an AR-15 and him shooting people with an AR-15 2 weeks later. Pure coincidence.
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On November 22 2021 02:01 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:49 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. I haven't even mentioned Rosenbaum or what I think of him. He was an absolute moron and a violent idiot for what he did and he deserved to be jailed. When it comes to your hero, when someone says they want to do something, and then 15 days later they do it, I assume that when they say they wanted to do it they were telling the truth. You seem to have some evidence that would suggest he wasn't being truthful. I'd like to hear it, because all the other evidence tells me that he did what he wanted to do. I can understand kids talking shit to their friends. It happens all the time. When someone ends up doing the shit they were talking about it changes things. What I can't believe is this incredible conceit that the guy who wanted an AR to shoot looters ended up exactly where the looters were with an AR and this was somehow completely unrelated to what he said. He is not my hero. Quit it with this "you're defending him you must be on his side" bullshit. Address the point that he didn't do what he said and stop ignoring it. He never fired at anybody for looting. He was there all night and until he was attacked he never shot at anybody. There is no indication he would have started shooting at looters at any point. Why was he there with an AR then? Its very specific, what he said, and then the position he put himself in. Its not like i'm linking two basically unrelated things. He specifically said he wished he had an AR so he could shoot some looters, and then he got himself an AR and went to where the looters were. But you go ahead and keep believing that what he said was just random words coming out of his mouth, and that it was just some incredible mindblowing coincidence that he ended up with an AR at the riot. Of course, it could be that he didn't actually want to shoot some people and that he was just trying to prove something to himself and would have not actually done anything had he not been attacked. The fact remains, he made a dreadful mistake in going there with his AR. I'm not without empathy and I can see that this could have happened, but that fact doesn't 'unlink' his words and his actions. I genuinely believe he wanted to go there and kill people. Why? Well he said he wanted an AR, he got himself an AR. He said he wanted to shoot at looters, so he went with his AR to where the looters were. He probably thought better of it once he got there, which allows him some leniency, but look at what the consequences were. I believe his words show that he was responsible, to some degree, for what happened.
The AR, not an AR. You make it sound like this gun was new to him and he procured it especially because he suddenly decided to kill people. He was very experienced with it, it wasn't like this was his first ever opportunity.
He said he wanted to do it and then ... didn't do it. And then you but,but,but that doesn't prove anything, I still know he wanted to even though he didn't! What he actually did is clearly not as telling as about him as my complete and perfect understanding of his psyche based on one thing I heard him say and definitely not on him being my political enemy and a year of political propaganda.
And then he get attacked which was totally his own fault because he chose to be there! Why else would he be there after all? I mean, ignoring why he said he was there obviously and ignoring that hundreds or thousands of other people also found reasons to be there that weren't mass shootings, that's the only possible reason Kyle could've chosen! No circular reasoning detected!
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On November 22 2021 02:18 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 02:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:49 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. I haven't even mentioned Rosenbaum or what I think of him. He was an absolute moron and a violent idiot for what he did and he deserved to be jailed. When it comes to your hero, when someone says they want to do something, and then 15 days later they do it, I assume that when they say they wanted to do it they were telling the truth. You seem to have some evidence that would suggest he wasn't being truthful. I'd like to hear it, because all the other evidence tells me that he did what he wanted to do. I can understand kids talking shit to their friends. It happens all the time. When someone ends up doing the shit they were talking about it changes things. What I can't believe is this incredible conceit that the guy who wanted an AR to shoot looters ended up exactly where the looters were with an AR and this was somehow completely unrelated to what he said. He is not my hero. Quit it with this "you're defending him you must be on his side" bullshit. Address the point that he didn't do what he said and stop ignoring it. He never fired at anybody for looting. He was there all night and until he was attacked he never shot at anybody. There is no indication he would have started shooting at looters at any point. Why was he there with an AR then? Its very specific, what he said, and then the position he put himself in. Its not like i'm linking two basically unrelated things. He specifically said he wished he had an AR so he could shoot some looters, and then he got himself an AR and went to where the looters were. But you go ahead and keep believing that what he said was just random words coming out of his mouth, and that it was just some incredible mindblowing coincidence that he ended up with an AR at the riot. Of course, it could be that he didn't actually want to shoot some people and that he was just trying to prove something to himself and would have not actually done anything had he not been attacked. The fact remains, he made a dreadful mistake in going there with his AR. I'm not without empathy and I can see that this could have happened, but that fact doesn't 'unlink' his words and his actions. I genuinely believe he wanted to go there and kill people. Why? Well he said he wanted an AR, he got himself an AR. He said he wanted to shoot at looters, so he went with his AR to where the looters were. He probably thought better of it once he got there, which allows him some leniency, but look at what the consequences were. I believe his words show that he was responsible, to some degree, for what happened. The AR, not an AR. You make it sound like this gun was new to him and he procured it especially because he suddenly decided to kill people. He was very experienced with it, it wasn't like this was his first ever opportunity. He said he wanted to do it and then ... didn't do it. And then you but,but,but that doesn't prove anything, I still know he wanted to even though he didn't! What he actually did is clearly not as telling as about him as my complete and perfect understanding of his psyche based on one thing I heard him say and definitely not on him being my political enemy and a year of political propaganda. And then he get attacked which was totally his own fault because he chose to be there! Why else would he be there after all? I mean, ignoring why he said he was there obviously and ignoring that hundreds or thousands of other people also found reasons to be there that weren't mass shootings, that's the only possible reason Kyle could've chosen! No circular reasoning detected!
Ahh once again demonstrating your misunderstanding and false assumptions of me.
The first was your assumption that i was forgiving of Rosenbaum.
The second is your assumption that the entire world has had a year of propaganda about this case. I heard about it when it happened, and had no opinion, and the next time i heard about it was a few days ago.
Here in the UK, there isn't much propaganda about regional US issues. It comes up when its a story.
Did I say it was 'totally his own fault'? I think if you read back you'll find i said the opposite, that he bears SOME responsibility, having gone there with the intention of shooting at some looters. Saying he bears some responsibility, in fact is the opposite of saying it was totally all his fault, because it necessarily apportions some of the blame elsewhere.
What you seem to want me to believe is that when he said he wished he had the gun so he could shoot at some looters, all of that was true (demonstrably, given that he went to the looters with his gun), except the word shoot, which was some anomaly, he didn't really mean to use that word, but the rest of what he said was true.
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Northern Ireland23849 Posts
Has the media coverage been faultless? Well absolutely not, but I think there’s a (large) degree of conflation between that coverage and social media commentary on the case, to get to this perception that Rittenhouse has been slandered for a year
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Northern Ireland23849 Posts
On November 22 2021 03:24 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 02:56 WombaT wrote:
Has the media coverage been faultless? Well absolutely not, but I think there’s a (large) degree of conflation between that coverage and social media commentary on the case, to get to this perception that Rittenhouse has been slandered for a year Blaming "the media" is such a weak overused strawman. What media? CNN? FOX? OAN? NPR? BBC? CBC? It really depends where someone is ingesting it to what they think. But "the media" on the whole who the fuck knows tehy are all over the map. That people watch Fox or OAN and then complain about "the media" or that those outlets themselves complain about "the media" says a whole bunch about ignorance, since you know, they are part of "the media" and a huge part in the USA.
Preaching to the choir here man, if you unpack a whole bunch of these stock phrases and gripes they make very little, if any sense.
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On November 22 2021 02:18 Lachrymose wrote:
The AR, not an AR. You make it sound like this gun was new to him and he procured it especially because he suddenly decided to kill people. He was very experienced with it, it wasn't like this was his first ever opportunity.
He said he wanted to do it and then ... didn't do it. And then you but,but,but that doesn't prove anything, I still know he wanted to even though he didn't! What he actually did is clearly not as telling as about him as my complete and perfect understanding of his psyche based on one thing I heard him say and definitely not on him being my political enemy and a year of political propaganda.
And then he get attacked which was totally his own fault because he chose to be there! Why else would he be there after all? I mean, ignoring why he said he was there obviously and ignoring that hundreds or thousands of other people also found reasons to be there that weren't mass shootings, that's the only possible reason Kyle could've chosen! No circular reasoning detected!
I think we can all agree that Kyle is no one's political enemy. Frankly, he's a misguided kid that made a very questionable decision of bringing an assault rifle to a riot.
I have a question for you though:
Do you think that it is now more or less likely that other people will end up dead at protests/civil unrest situations? I.e. has this verdict improved the overall safety of people at protests or made it worse? Is this a desirable outcome?
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United States41991 Posts
On November 22 2021 01:46 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:41 justanothertownie wrote:On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. What does Rosenbaum have to do with it? There is literally no point in judging him since he is dead. If he wasn't I am sure he would be judged just as harshly here. To highlight the difference between how people are judged. You think it's because one died and one did not, I don't believe that at all. I think it's purely down to political sides. Kyle: 15 days ago says 'shoot at some looters' casually: He is a mass shooter wannabe who engineered this situation to just to kill people. Rosenbaum: That night says 'I'm going to kill you' directly to his victim: It wasn't really his fault, Kyle manipulated him into attacking.
Literally nobody thinks Rosenbaum is innocent. You keep erecting this straw man and I don’t know why.
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On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum!
like to woman who accidentally cast a provisional ballot and got 5 years in prison for that?
she blew her "2nd chance" already because she had a felon, or what?
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Northern Ireland23849 Posts
On November 22 2021 01:46 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:41 justanothertownie wrote:On November 22 2021 01:37 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 01:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 22 2021 01:22 Lachrymose wrote:On November 22 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:
My point was there is a massive gulf between thinking this was the legally correct decision and that it is good that person professed their dream of shooting up shoplifters with a AR, gets a AR and goes and shoots up some bad guys.
The people celebrating him as hero have very messed up morales. This is a horrible event for society and many families lives have been ruined.
edit: also this "poor Kyle" shtick is embarrassing. Half "the media" is making him out as a american hero, he is getting wealth and celebrity for putting himself in the exact situation he dreamed of. The guy is living out his fantasy. Yeah, there's also a massive gulf between people thinking a 17 year old saying "I wish I had my AR, I'd shoot some rounds at them" casually to a friend is equivalent to laying bear his innermost desires of being a mass shooter at his local Neo-Nazi press conference or is just a literal dumb kid saying stupid shit. It's at the point where a serial child rapist with a laundry list of prison assaults yelling about how he wants to kill people and then tries to kill someone: That doesn't mean he deserved to die, everyone make mistakes in life and we need to understand him as a whole person, not just some things he did. A literal child says "I'd shoot some rounds at them": Oh my God, he's irredeemable scum! All of this could be true, if he didn't in fact grab his AR and go and put some rounds in them. Seems like he got to play out his innermost desires to me. I suppose it could be a coincidence that what he did in the end, was exactly what he said he wished he could do. Except he didn't at all. He at no point shot at anybody for looting. Never. Not once. He shot at somebody for trying to assault or kill him. Even then, he only shot after running away as much as possible. But in spite of his actions that night you treat his one thing he said 15 days earlier as sworn testimony that reveals the full truth and worth of him as a human being and he only ran away to make it look good or let his attackers catch up on purpose so he could shoot them. If he was on the "right side" there is 0 chance this would happen. On the other hand Rosenbaum, despite his history, current actions and words all being demonstrably worse is judged much more compassionately simply because of which side he is perceived to be on. What does Rosenbaum have to do with it? There is literally no point in judging him since he is dead. If he wasn't I am sure he would be judged just as harshly here. To highlight the difference between how people are judged. You think it's because one died and one did not, I don't believe that at all. I think it's purely down to political sides. Kyle: 15 days ago says 'shoot at some looters' casually: He is a mass shooter wannabe who engineered this situation to just to kill people. Rosenbaum: That night says 'I'm going to kill you' directly to his victim: It wasn't really his fault, Kyle manipulated him into attacking.
Nobody, least here in this thread that I’ve seen in this thread has defended Rosenbaum here.
The straw men you’re pulling out are rather gargantuan and terrifying in stature.
Vast, vast majority of the thread are either arguing that.
1. The rationale and events leading up to Rittenhouse having to discharge his firearm were indicative of criminal intent.
2. 1. The rationale and events leading up to Rittenhouse having to discharge his firearm were indicative of poor judgement, and reflective of a broken political culture, in a wider sense, if not necessarily illegal. And worse, even if one ascribes the best intentions to Rittenhouse himself, this precedent actually forms a blueprint for vigilantes to exploit in future.
3. Feeding on to 2, the contemporary and post-trial reception of Rittenhouse in certain corners of the media and especially wider social media is of a distinctly celebratory tone. The degree of which, to me makes it implausible that folks are just happy that the law was upheld. And that that is a worrying cultural state of affairs that this feeds into.
I’m kind of truncating arguments here but, that’s it, basically. I haven’t seen anyone here defending Rosenbaum whatsoever
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EPT
