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On March 09 2015 12:45 Glowsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 12:33 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 12:08 CorsairHero wrote:On March 09 2015 12:04 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 12:02 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 11:59 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 11:56 Millitron wrote:On March 09 2015 11:52 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 11:39 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 11:31 levelping wrote:
[quote]
Okay - but as a man, have you ever been in a situation where someone who is physically larger and stronger than you could have forced himself on you? And where you probably could not physically fight back? Probably not. I've gotten rape/cancer/mom/murder insults online too, but the difference between me and a girl is that I know that this is highly unlikely to happen in real life since I could probably fight back against the assualter. Were I a girl, who in real life would have experienced the real fear of being raped, then obviously I would receive the same virtual insults very differently.
That's one reason why I don't really see how men can dismiss this as "not a big deal", and think that the newer crop of girl gamers discussing this issue should be given the benefit of the doubt and their space to discuss this issue. I do bjj 5 times a week. There are girls who weigh 80lbs less than me that choke me out, and armbar me regularly. Lol so yes. I am sure that these girls are reflective of the general female population as generally being able to choke out guys. Okay. Well, you seem to like making generalizations about male gamers, so why can't he generalize about females? Please tell me where I am generalising male gamers. My reference point has been the posts in this thread only, who are dismissing the problem as not being a big deal. I don't think I've ever asserted that all male gamers are rapists, rude, or teeanger dolts. If you can point to that part, I'd happily delete. No, you've asserted that male gamers can't relate to female gamers, cuz they can't feel the same things. Which is more asinine than the actual discussion. I'm saying that we don't know or understand how women feel with regard to rape threats. And so we should start by acknowledging that we are in a position of some amount of ignorance, as oppose to dimissing the problem entirely. Are you saying you underdstand how women feel about rape threats, better than the women who are making this documentary? Are you seriously implying that men don't get raped? I am obviously not. I am making what I think would be a fairly uncontroversial point that women have to worry much more about getting raped than men. Which is why while we can obviously shrug off virtual insults, this is different for a women who, in her real life may be worrying about actually getting raped (whereas this is less of an issue for men). Meanwhile, "gay" and "faggot" can only be insults to men, both straight and gay (the latter because it's intended as an insult). I'm willing to bet they are used just as much or more than rape threats. So are we, as men, unable to shrug off virtual insults to our sexuality? You are doing more than making the point that women have to worry more about getting raped. You are claiming that women are not only physically weak and vulnerable, but emotionally so as well.
And there are separate, and very fruitful discussions on homophobia in gaming culture. We can do more than one thing at once.
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The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well; there are far more frequent cases of death threats, stalking, etc. against women stemming from online interaction than against men. Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem.
If you can't see the difference between insulting a man by calling him a "faggot" and insulting a gay man by calling him a "faggot" then you need to do some soul-searching. It's the same difference between calling a white man the N word vs. calling a black man the N word. One person is being insulted about something he's not, while the other is being insulted and ridiculed due to a fundamental part of his identity.
This same thing occurs with women in the gaming world. Similarly, when over 90% of rape victims are female and cultural discourse on rape is almost exclusively about women being the victims, threatening to rape someone is far more disturbing to a woman than a man, especially when human history has been almost exclusively patriarchal and rape as we understand it today was both legal and commonly encouraged throughout history.
The idea that you treat everyone 100% the same without regard for context is an incredibly childish and naive notion. There is context to everything in this world. Calling a white man the N word doesn't mean the same thing as calling a black man the N word, just as a black man saying the N word means something very different from a white man saying the N word. Calling a man a "slut" has a very different connotation than calling a woman a "slut" does.
So no, the abuse that women take in the gaming world is not the same as the abuse that men take. That is simply the excuse of a lazy, entitled, male-centered gaming culture that is afraid of change.
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On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem.
I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing?
+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm.
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On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm.
It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet).
Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative.
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On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm.
This is incredibly defeatist as to the toxicity of gaming communities. We can readily observe that with proper policing and moderation, certain communities are better of than others (this forum for example, versus say a Call of Duty server). So the notion that "there is no winning" is patently false to begin with.
Next, the idea that just because everyone else receives specific forms of discrimination, does not mean that women are barred from bringing up insults/harassment specific to them. This seems to be some sort of fallacious "everyone is suffering and such suffering can only be tackled altogether at one time" mode of thinking.
Finally I am sure that your mother is a women of good repute and that you never have to worry about her having slept with most of the internet. The coverse is true, since worrying about rape is something that women have to deal with in real life, and while the threats may be virtual online, I do not quite see why they should be expected to deal with a virtual equivalent of a real problem. I take it that your mother's promiscuity is not a real problem in the same vein.
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On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative.
knowing what gender you are is really personal? Stop spewing garbage. Women are the ones doing the stalking dude.
GAINESVILLE, Fla. — Women are more likely than men to stalk, attack and psychologically abuse their partners, according to a University of Florida study that finds college women have a new view of the dating scene.
http://news.ufl.edu/archive/2006/07/women-more-likely-to-be-perpetrators-of-abuse-as-well-as-victims.html
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I'm a male gamer and I've been verbally abused frequently while playing online video games. That said, I've NEVER had verbal abuse toward me be triggered just by someone deducing my gender. Considering that I've never had that experience, I can't really imagine what it would be like to be in that position. Apparently some of the other male gamers on here know all about it though somehow.
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Haha this is just ridiculous, boys will be boys I guess....I have a girl on my clan and she is actually really good, this type of stuff makes me sick though, that some people can't handle playing with someone of the opposite sex, like really? Come on.
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On March 09 2015 13:30 CorsairHero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. knowing what gender you are is really personal? Stop spewing garbage. Women are the ones doing the stalking dude. Show nested quote +GAINESVILLE, Fla. — Women are more likely than men to stalk, attack and psychologically abuse their partners, according to a University of Florida study that finds college women have a new view of the dating scene. http://news.ufl.edu/archive/2006/07/women-more-likely-to-be-perpetrators-of-abuse-as-well-as-victims.html
Since we are talking about rape threats etc shouldn't the much more relevant statistic be that women are far and anyway more likely to be victims of rape and men the perpetrators?
I know right statistics is crazy like that.
P.s. I've read the preamble of the study and it seems to have been done in the context of college students in general and not specific behaviour online which is obviously a wor different context. If you are relying on the studying to explain at the boobbs comments on twitch pls try harder.
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On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative.
I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't.
But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up?
On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Similarly, when over 90% of rape victims are female and cultural discourse on rape is almost exclusively about women being the victims, threatening to rape someone is far more disturbing to a woman than a man
Interesting claim here.
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On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up?
I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both.
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On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both.
now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous
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Everyone should just be really nice and never say or do anything mean to anyone because displaying aggression towards others in an effort to establish dominance isn't a natural part of the human psyche but instilled in us by our super sexist patriarchal society!
-every SJW ever
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I remember reading people on a forum complaining that cops asked them if they locked their doors after a burglary. The reason they were complaining was because they thought it amounted to victim blaming. "Why are you implying that it was my fault when someone else robbed me?"
I think a major point people are missing is that there is nothing wrong with intermediate solutions. Mods are helpful for getting less flaming and insulting. So are report systems. But why is it wrong to take some responsibility on yourself and go along with steps to deal with it? It really feels like the people in this thread are saying that girls shouldn't really do anything, and instead just yell until something changes. You can yell all you want, but there are already systems in place to help (mentioned above, plus muting).
And I think it might be helpful to see the divide here of how many people prefer what.
I'm much more of the opinion that being able to say anything you want in jest is a good thing, where it's easier to accept that some people have different views and consider different things non-offensive or offensive.
On the other hand, a more moderated community (akin to TL) has its upsides, where it's much more in line with reality.
Writing this out, I realize that the problem with the side saying to grow tougher skin (I'm kind of on this side as well) is that it's very idealistic. Human beings are emotional creatures, and saying that we should discard those is not only unhealthy, but impossible.
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This thread is going very well (No).
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On March 09 2015 13:55 l3loodraven wrote:
Everyone should just be really nice and never say or do anything mean to anyone because displaying aggression towards others in an effort to establish dominance isn't a natural part of the human psyche but instilled in us by our super sexist patriarchal society!
-every SJW ever
Because it's "natural" for us to act this way, we should act this way!
-every person using the naturalistic fallacy ever
Even if you were to think that aggression to establish dominance is a natural part of the human psyche, why should that portion manifest itself in videogames? Will proving that you are the bigger man in an online game really make you a better candidate for mating? Even if it did, is that really the society you want, one where you must belittle others in order to find sexual partners and subsequent happiness?
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On March 09 2015 14:08 Sandvich wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:55 l3loodraven wrote:
Everyone should just be really nice and never say or do anything mean to anyone because displaying aggression towards others in an effort to establish dominance isn't a natural part of the human psyche but instilled in us by our super sexist patriarchal society!
-every SJW ever Because it's "natural" for us to act this way, we should act this way! -every person using the naturalistic fallacy ever Even if you were to think that aggression to establish dominance is a natural part of the human psyche, why should that portion manifest itself in videogames? Will proving that you are the bigger man in an online game really make you a better candidate for mating? Even if it did, is that really the society you want, one where you must belittle others in order to find sexual partners and subsequent happiness? what you or I or anyone else wants is irrelevant, you aren't going to change human nature. People are attracted to power whether they want to admit it or not, because power implies safety.
Aggression is a completely natural phenomenon in both the human and animal kingdoms, and humans becoming more civilized has not and will not change that, it has just become less socially acceptable to display it publicly. This is why it's so common online - our base urges never went away, we just found other outlets to express them.
If you don't like what someone is saying, tell them to shut the fuck up or ignore them. If the community you are a part of is causing you so much discomfort you can't handle it, stop being a part of that community. All these efforts to change people are a complete waste of time and energy.
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I like how everyone just ignored my input on the topic.
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On March 09 2015 14:38 ninazerg wrote:
I like how everyone just ignored my input on the topic.
look again
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On March 09 2015 14:30 l3loodraven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 14:08 Sandvich wrote:
Because it's "natural" for us to act this way, we should act this way!
-every person using the naturalistic fallacy ever
Even if you were to think that aggression to establish dominance is a natural part of the human psyche, why should that portion manifest itself in videogames? Will proving that you are the bigger man in an online game really make you a better candidate for mating? Even if it did, is that really the society you want, one where you must belittle others in order to find sexual partners and subsequent happiness? what you or I or anyone else wants is irrelevant, you aren't going to change human nature. People are attracted to power whether they want to admit it or not, because power implies safety. Aggression is a completely natural phenomenon in both the human and animal kingdoms, and humans becoming more civilized has not and will not change that, it has just become less socially acceptable to display it publicly. This is why it's so common online - our base urges never went away, we just found other outlets to express them. If you don't like what someone is saying, tell them to shut the fuck up or ignore them. All these efforts to change people are a complete waste of time and energy.
We aren't going to change human nature? You do realize that our ancestors were nomadic hunter gatherer nomads right? But look, our nature changed and we settled down with the onset of reliable agriculture. You could say the same thing about many kinds of other technology, that it has had a noticeable impact on what it means to be human, what our very nature becomes. Your philosophy is terribly fatalistic I must say.
If you don't like my initial arguments, how about acceptance of black people in America? You could make your same argument that it is natural for blacks and whites not to get along, and that attempting to end segregation goes against human nature. Clearly people and their mindsets have evolved greatly from the 50s when views like this were tolerated. Why should women, or anyone have to take flak simply for existing in the body they were born into? Why should they be forced to tell them to shut up or ignore them? Why can't people control themselves?
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EPT
