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On March 09 2015 14:38 ninazerg wrote:
I like how everyone just ignored my input on the topic.
I didn't.
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On March 09 2015 14:38 ninazerg wrote:
I like how everyone just ignored my input on the topic.
You just summarized the entire situation nicely with this post.
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On March 09 2015 14:30 l3loodraven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 14:08 Sandvich wrote:On March 09 2015 13:55 l3loodraven wrote:
Everyone should just be really nice and never say or do anything mean to anyone because displaying aggression towards others in an effort to establish dominance isn't a natural part of the human psyche but instilled in us by our super sexist patriarchal society!
-every SJW ever Because it's "natural" for us to act this way, we should act this way! -every person using the naturalistic fallacy ever Even if you were to think that aggression to establish dominance is a natural part of the human psyche, why should that portion manifest itself in videogames? Will proving that you are the bigger man in an online game really make you a better candidate for mating? Even if it did, is that really the society you want, one where you must belittle others in order to find sexual partners and subsequent happiness? what you or I or anyone else wants is irrelevant, you aren't going to change human nature. People are attracted to power whether they want to admit it or not, because power implies safety. Aggression is a completely natural phenomenon in both the human and animal kingdoms, and humans becoming more civilized has not and will not change that, it has just become less socially acceptable to display it publicly. This is why it's so common online - our base urges never went away, we just found other outlets to express them. If you don't like what someone is saying, tell them to shut the fuck up or ignore them. If the community you are a part of is causing you so much discomfort you can't handle it, stop being a part of that community. All these efforts to change people are a complete waste of time and energy.
this is probably off topic but whether we can change human nature is an incredibly complicated issue that philosophers have been arguing about for a very long time. Locke for example thought that we could use reason and the mind to overcome our initial base reactions and rationalize our way to the proper conclusion.
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On March 09 2015 01:05 travis wrote:
I really don't think the immature kids that talk to girl gamers like this are going after girl gamers. I think they are being dicks to everyone. Most guys, especially ones over 12, LOVE to have girls that play their games too.
In general this "defend girl gamers!" thing is ridiculous. Everyone has to deal with the shitty little immature trolls, not just girls.
The majority of this journalism on girl gamer equality is only a way for the producers of this content to make money. Which is why I didn't click the link.
Also why I didn't click the link and won't watch the video.
In my experience the people who say things like I'll rape and kill you say that to both guys and girls. I have been issued that threat dozens of times online.
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On March 09 2015 14:50 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 01:05 travis wrote:
I really don't think the immature kids that talk to girl gamers like this are going after girl gamers. I think they are being dicks to everyone. Most guys, especially ones over 12, LOVE to have girls that play their games too.
In general this "defend girl gamers!" thing is ridiculous. Everyone has to deal with the shitty little immature trolls, not just girls.
The majority of this journalism on girl gamer equality is only a way for the producers of this content to make money. Which is why I didn't click the link. Also why I didn't click the link and won't watch the video. In my experience the people who say things like I'll rape and kill you say that to both guys and girls. I have been issued that threat dozens of times online.
Except the threat of sexual violence is a very real thing for women on a daily basis. Requesting you not mention it, even in jest, seems to be a reasonable request.
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On March 09 2015 14:56 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 14:50 Orcasgt24 wrote:On March 09 2015 01:05 travis wrote:
I really don't think the immature kids that talk to girl gamers like this are going after girl gamers. I think they are being dicks to everyone. Most guys, especially ones over 12, LOVE to have girls that play their games too.
In general this "defend girl gamers!" thing is ridiculous. Everyone has to deal with the shitty little immature trolls, not just girls.
The majority of this journalism on girl gamer equality is only a way for the producers of this content to make money. Which is why I didn't click the link. Also why I didn't click the link and won't watch the video. In my experience the people who say things like I'll rape and kill you say that to both guys and girls. I have been issued that threat dozens of times online. Except the threat of sexual violence is a very real thing for women on a daily basis. Requesting you not mention it, even in jest, seems to be a reasonable request.
But MDJ mah freezepeaches. Lemme find a relevant xkcd for this thread. A
+ Show Spoiler +
A depressing number of people seem to think that freedom of speach is freedom to be a twat with out repercussions. Women do have insults and other bullcrap targeted at them because of their gender, and thats not just having to deal with the same trolls as everyone else.
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On March 09 2015 12:05 ninazerg wrote:
Documentaries like this are always just ass-backwards. Nearly every girl who has played video games that I've known gets special treatment and is welcomed with open arms into communities as long as they aren't completely batshit insane or a psycho. Then again, if they have the looks, then being psycho is acceptable. Additionally, girl gamers with very poor skills in their respective games will get way more viewers than men if they have a webcam on.
I see men getting harassed all the time. "You suck", "Faggot", "Get cancer", "Commit suicide", "I hope you die", and so on, are examples of the awful stuff that male gamers will hear on a regular basis if they gravitate toward the wrong communities within gaming. This tells me that there is a bigger issue here, but it always seems like special interests groups want to hijack the conversation and make it about them.
Always interesting to hear input from a female gamer on this. Think it might be worse in other genres (especially those with voice chat) like FPS, MOBA, ect?
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On March 09 2015 14:56 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 14:50 Orcasgt24 wrote:On March 09 2015 01:05 travis wrote:
I really don't think the immature kids that talk to girl gamers like this are going after girl gamers. I think they are being dicks to everyone. Most guys, especially ones over 12, LOVE to have girls that play their games too.
In general this "defend girl gamers!" thing is ridiculous. Everyone has to deal with the shitty little immature trolls, not just girls.
The majority of this journalism on girl gamer equality is only a way for the producers of this content to make money. Which is why I didn't click the link. Also why I didn't click the link and won't watch the video. In my experience the people who say things like I'll rape and kill you say that to both guys and girls. I have been issued that threat dozens of times online. Except the threat of sexual violence is a very real thing for women on a daily basis. Requesting you not mention it, even in jest, seems to be a reasonable request.
no its not. Crime is at its lowest numbers in decades, this includes violent crime, and yes, sexual crime, the 1/5 statistic is pure bunk and has been debunked NUMEROUS times, sexual violence isn't anymore a real thing for 'women' on a daily basis moreso than murder and assault are a real thing on a daily basis for the average male
on women being harassed, recently Pew did a study, http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/
the results are
1. Everyone gets harassed, a lot
2. Men are slightly more likely to get harassed
3. its all just bullying tactics.
Seriously? This is the bullshit we're making documentaries about? The struggle of the 'gamer girl'? This is first world problems at its fucking best.
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Well this thread is going places, but probably not good ones..
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Here let's write the rebuttals to save these gents some time so they can go back to calling each other homosexual slurs online.
"Another example of the pussification of America."
"Hey male rape is a very real thing. I have here TWO anecdotal examples."
"If women don't like it they can leave"
"Feminism is our greatest threat"
Throw in a joke about that time of the month and we are good to go.
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On March 09 2015 15:05 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 14:56 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On March 09 2015 14:50 Orcasgt24 wrote:On March 09 2015 01:05 travis wrote:
I really don't think the immature kids that talk to girl gamers like this are going after girl gamers. I think they are being dicks to everyone. Most guys, especially ones over 12, LOVE to have girls that play their games too.
In general this "defend girl gamers!" thing is ridiculous. Everyone has to deal with the shitty little immature trolls, not just girls.
The majority of this journalism on girl gamer equality is only a way for the producers of this content to make money. Which is why I didn't click the link. Also why I didn't click the link and won't watch the video. In my experience the people who say things like I'll rape and kill you say that to both guys and girls. I have been issued that threat dozens of times online. Except the threat of sexual violence is a very real thing for women on a daily basis. Requesting you not mention it, even in jest, seems to be a reasonable request. no its not. Crime is at its lowest numbers in decades, this includes violent crime, and yes, sexual crime, the 1/5 statistic is pure bunk and has been debunked NUMEROUS times, sexual violence isn't anymore a real thing for 'women' on a daily basis moreso than murder and assault are a real thing on a daily basis for the average male on women being harassed, recently Pew did a study, http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/the results are 1. Everyone gets harassed, a lot 2. Men are slightly more likely to get harassed 3. its all just bullying tactics. Seriously? This is the bullshit we're making documentaries about? The struggle of the 'gamer girl'? This is first world problems at its fucking best.
Did you read the study you posted?
"Young women, those 18-24, experience certain severe types of harassment at disproportionately high levels: 26% of these young women have been stalked online, and 25% were the target of online sexual harassment. In addition, they do not escape the heightened rates of physical threats and sustained harassment common to their male peers and young people in general." Yes, this disproportionate rate of harassment for a vulnerable population is definitely the "bullshit" we're making documentaries about.
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On March 09 2015 15:12 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Here let's write the rebuttals to save these gents some time so they can go back to calling each other homosexual slurs online.
"Another example of the pussification of America."
"Hey male rape is a very real thing. I have here TWO anecdotal examples."
"If women don't like it they can leave"
"Feminism is our greatest threat"
Throw in a joke about mensuration and we are good to go.
i mean are you gonna say men can't be raped because its clearly a thing that can happen, trivialization of it is a real issue, those guys are victims too.
like, cmon dude, thats actually completely dickish to make fun of.
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On March 09 2015 15:12 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Here let's write the rebuttals to save these gents some time so they can go back to calling each other homosexual slurs online.
"Another example of the pussification of America."
"Hey male rape is a very real thing. I have here TWO anecdotal examples."
"If women don't like it they can leave"
"Feminism is our greatest threat"
Throw in a joke about that time of the month and we are good to go.
I was going to say it was missing something about how white males are the real victims and their plight is being glossed over and then....
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On March 09 2015 15:12 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Here let's write the rebuttals to save these gents some time so they can go back to calling each other homosexual slurs online.
"Another example of the pussification of America."
"Hey male rape is a very real thing. I have here TWO anecdotal examples."
"If women don't like it they can leave"
"Feminism is our greatest threat"
Throw in a joke about that time of the month and we are good to go.
Don't forget how feminism kill the Roman Empire.
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On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous
Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box.
I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not.
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On March 09 2015 15:14 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 15:12 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Here let's write the rebuttals to save these gents some time so they can go back to calling each other homosexual slurs online.
"Another example of the pussification of America."
"Hey male rape is a very real thing. I have here TWO anecdotal examples."
"If women don't like it they can leave"
"Feminism is our greatest threat"
Throw in a joke about mensuration and we are good to go. i mean are you gonna say men can't be raped because its clearly a thing that can happen, trivialization of it is a real issue, those guys are victims too. like, cmon dude, thats actually completely dickish to make fun of.
I don't think his intention is trivialization of rape committed on males, so much as highlighting people's attempts to subvert the issue of sexual violence against women by mentioning male rape and their subsequent equivocations from there on. I don't think he is claiming nonexistence of male rape at all.
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On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not.
I dunno, my favorite time in gaming has always been the hilarious flame wars in CS 1.3-1.6. so.... not exactly non-bias here.
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On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not.
The problem generally comes down to two things:
One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet.
Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive.
And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved.
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On March 09 2015 15:25 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. I dunno, my favorite time in gaming has always been the hilarious flame wars in CS 1.3-1.6. so.... not exactly non-bias here.
Well quite simply then, if throwing around racist, sexist, homophobic, and discriminatory nonsense is integral to the "fun" of video games, we should obviously be seriously reflecting on why this is the case. Just as how football is currently having a serious look at the hooligan culture that comes from hardcore fans. And it can change, just as how football is making some very painful progress in address racism.
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On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved.
If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/images/a/ae/free_speech.png)
