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On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not.
In my opinion, the problem has less to do with gamers being sexist (or racist, or really descriminatory at all) and more to do with the distance and anonymity that being online brings. There is a select group of people (call them trolls, bullies, whatever) that are assholes online because they think they can get away with it and probably never encounter that person they just insulted again. Even people who are normally nice occassionally fall into this when angry or frustrated, and being in a competitive environment brings these emotions out in people. edit: Most of them wouldn't act this way to a person in real life, and especially not a person they encountered daily. They're hiding behind the mask of anonymity.
I think the solution isn't going to be targetted at a specific gender or race, and it definitely wont involve giving them special treatment (if anything, I think that would just encourage people to be assholes to them). The solution is more likely going to be something along the lines of an automated peer review system, where you can upvote people who are nice / do nice things / ect and downvote people who are angry / assholes / ect. Also make it so that account rewards build up over time or you have to buy new accounts so you can't just easily make a new anonymous account after being a dick. We see these kinds of systems in games like LoL and DotA already, and AFAIK they're more user friendly than, say, CoD, which is where this documentary draws it's material. We also see this working in user streams that have subscriber only chat. More systems in place like these will improve the gaming community, not complaining about how bad everyone gets abused.
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On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream.
Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact.
Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements.
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On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements.
You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post?
This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour.
As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area?
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On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:
You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post?
This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour.
As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area?
Who do you want to be the police of the internet then?
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On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:[quote] I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements. You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post? This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour. As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area?
Yes, laws only work after the fact because they're entirely about punishment after a crime has been committed.
But we're not talking about punishing mean people on the internet (which is more than feasible), we're talking about stopping mean people from saying mean things.
And an online game does not function like a forum. When you push that "Find Game" button and look for a game, you're basically putting yourself in a chatroom with at least 1 other person selected completely at random.
Now, you can disable all chat completely, which works just fine, but there is no magic button for "I'd only like nice chat please".
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On March 09 2015 15:32 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 15:25 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. I dunno, my favorite time in gaming has always been the hilarious flame wars in CS 1.3-1.6. so.... not exactly non-bias here. Well quite simply then, if throwing around racist, sexist, homophobic, and discriminatory nonsense is integral to the "fun" of video games, we should obviously be seriously reflecting on why this is the case. Just as how football is currently having a serious look at the hooligan culture that comes from hardcore fans. And it can change, just as how football is making some very painful progress in address racism.
The fun isn't tossing them out. The fun is at the reaction.
case in point
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On March 09 2015 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet).
Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements. You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post? This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour. As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Yes, laws only work after the fact because they're entirely about punishment after a crime has been committed. But we're not talking about punishing mean people on the internet (which is more than feasible), we're talking about stopping mean people from saying mean things. And an online game does not function like a forum. When you push that "Find Game" button and look for a game, you're basically putting yourself in a chatroom with at least 1 other person selected completely at random. Now, you can disable all chat completely, which works just fine, but there is no magic button for "I'd only like nice chat please".
You've missed my point that laws have a prescriptive function. People do not steal things in part because it is the law. The this way the law guides or prescribes behaviour.
In the same vein, having strong policies against harassment in forum or games will guide behaviour accordingly. In your example, if you look at DOTA people know that abandoning games will get your stuck in low priority. Knowing this, people now abandon games a lot less than back in DOTA one when there was no such penalty. Interestingly enoguh, the current system also encourages people to try and make come backs despite being at a disadvantage (i.e. the behvariou shaping function of rules and systems of regulation). Replace abandoning games with harassment and you can arrive at the same point.
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On March 09 2015 16:49 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't.
But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements. You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post? This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour. As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Yes, laws only work after the fact because they're entirely about punishment after a crime has been committed. But we're not talking about punishing mean people on the internet (which is more than feasible), we're talking about stopping mean people from saying mean things. And an online game does not function like a forum. When you push that "Find Game" button and look for a game, you're basically putting yourself in a chatroom with at least 1 other person selected completely at random. Now, you can disable all chat completely, which works just fine, but there is no magic button for "I'd only like nice chat please". You've missed my point that laws have a prescriptive function. People do not steal things in part because it is the law. The this way the law guides or prescribes behaviour. In the same vein, having strong policies against harassment in forum or games will guide behaviour accordingly. In your example, if you look at DOTA people know that abandoning games will get your stuck in low priority. Knowing this, people now abandon games a lot less than back in DOTA one when there was no such penalty. Interestingly enoguh, the current system also encourages people to try and make come backs despite being at a disadvantage (i.e. the behvariou shaping function of rules and systems of regulation). Replace abandoning games with harassment and you can arrive at the same point.
...I'm...pretty sure there've been threads and threads about how the report->mute system has zero effect on people raging, and low priority being an extremely cyclical occurrence. AKA, how the punishments have done very little for the behaviour.
And there are a lot more reasons behind the difference in number of abandons in DotA 1 compared to 2 than just Low Priority.
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On March 09 2015 16:34 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:
You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post?
This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour.
As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Who do you want to be the police of the internet then?
Comments like this I think come generally from a misunderstanding of:
(a) The notion that the internet is not already policed or regulated. It is, and your conduct on the internet is subject to the same kinds of laws that would guide normal real life conduct. If the internet was truly some sort of lawless anything goes frontier, buying things with credit cards would be impossible. In fact internet regulation goes much deeper than just the conduct of users, but the entire design of the net as a communication system. Please read a little on this wonderful thing called the internet.
(b) The notion that you even need an internet police to guide user behvaviour. You do not. Content and service providers on the internet can take a strong stand against things like harassment and make it part and parcel of community moderation.
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On March 09 2015 16:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 15:32 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:25 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well (to the point of death threats and other problems outside of games more often). Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem. I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. I dunno, my favorite time in gaming has always been the hilarious flame wars in CS 1.3-1.6. so.... not exactly non-bias here. Well quite simply then, if throwing around racist, sexist, homophobic, and discriminatory nonsense is integral to the "fun" of video games, we should obviously be seriously reflecting on why this is the case. Just as how football is currently having a serious look at the hooligan culture that comes from hardcore fans. And it can change, just as how football is making some very painful progress in address racism. The fun isn't tossing them out. The fun is at the reaction. case in point
Point stands - why do we as a community require this sorts of frankly shameful and extremely juvenile outbursts as part of our entertainment. I again draw a comparison to football - imagine if fans said hey keep the racists comments in because we like to troll racist fans and see their reaction.
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On March 09 2015 15:05 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 12:05 ninazerg wrote:
Documentaries like this are always just ass-backwards. Nearly every girl who has played video games that I've known gets special treatment and is welcomed with open arms into communities as long as they aren't completely batshit insane or a psycho. Then again, if they have the looks, then being psycho is acceptable. Additionally, girl gamers with very poor skills in their respective games will get way more viewers than men if they have a webcam on.
I see men getting harassed all the time. "You suck", "Faggot", "Get cancer", "Commit suicide", "I hope you die", and so on, are examples of the awful stuff that male gamers will hear on a regular basis if they gravitate toward the wrong communities within gaming. This tells me that there is a bigger issue here, but it always seems like special interests groups want to hijack the conversation and make it about them. Always interesting to hear input from a female gamer on this. Think it might be worse in other genres (especially those with voice chat) like FPS, MOBA, ect?
I kind of think more speech/visual interaction between players is where gaming is headed in general. I haven't really noticed too much difference between the RTS and FPS crowds, to be honest. A vast majority of my interactions with other players have been positive. There have been rare occasions where I've been harassed, and it sucked, but it didn't really have like a long-term effect on me as far as shaping my perception of gamers in general. It is out there, though. If you look at Youtube comments, people are horrible to each other there. I've made personal adjustments for certain things, but not everyone might be dealing with harassment as well as I have in the past.
Here's where I start to diverge away from the view that this is a woman-only problem: Some people can take verbal punishment all day and laugh it off, and others crumble. That's not a gender thing. I've talked to men who have really taken some of the stuff said to them really hard. And I'm not marginalizing any woman's experience with harassment, either. I'm saying some people are okay and can deal with it and have a support system of friends they can vent to, and there are other people who are legitimately being hurt by harassment.
The best thing for hurting people is to comfort them, not try and solve all their problems. For example, if a friend of yours gets bullied, you want to get revenge on the bully. But getting revenge doesn't build your friend up, it just tears yet another person down. There is a time and a place for getting justice, but being there for your friend and comforting them is best. I feel like documentaries and articles that spin issues with harassment into an "us versus them" debacle encourages hostility towards an opposing 'side'. This is often grossly generalized, and with feminists, the issue is framed as an indictment of men, all men. The problem with that is that most men are not harassing women, it is a very select few who do, and they also harass other men. Additionally, even though women tend to be more passive towards men, I'm certain there are instances where women harass men via video game chat.
To take this a step further, I would say a bigger problem in gaming harassment is actually racism. Racism is used more often than sexism. I'm not just talking about some white kids throwing the n-word around. I mean everyone is racist towards everyone else. I know most of it is in jest, and some of it is to get a reaction, but some of it is legitimately nasty and cruel.
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On March 09 2015 16:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:49 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:
[quote]
I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both.
now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements. You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post? This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour. As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Yes, laws only work after the fact because they're entirely about punishment after a crime has been committed. But we're not talking about punishing mean people on the internet (which is more than feasible), we're talking about stopping mean people from saying mean things. And an online game does not function like a forum. When you push that "Find Game" button and look for a game, you're basically putting yourself in a chatroom with at least 1 other person selected completely at random. Now, you can disable all chat completely, which works just fine, but there is no magic button for "I'd only like nice chat please". You've missed my point that laws have a prescriptive function. People do not steal things in part because it is the law. The this way the law guides or prescribes behaviour. In the same vein, having strong policies against harassment in forum or games will guide behaviour accordingly. In your example, if you look at DOTA people know that abandoning games will get your stuck in low priority. Knowing this, people now abandon games a lot less than back in DOTA one when there was no such penalty. Interestingly enoguh, the current system also encourages people to try and make come backs despite being at a disadvantage (i.e. the behvariou shaping function of rules and systems of regulation). Replace abandoning games with harassment and you can arrive at the same point. ...I'm...pretty sure there've been threads and threads about how the report->mute system has zero effect on people raging, and low priority being an extremely cyclical occurrence. AKA, how the punishments have done very little for the behaviour. And there are a lot more reasons behind the difference in number of abandons in DotA 1 compared to 2 than just Low Priority.
But low priority is part of that system of regulation. Anyway if you don't like the DOTA example, just look at this forum then. Technically, if we applied your argument, people here would still be spouting memes, one liners, mom jokes, and so on because strict moderation does not prevent people from being mean. But we can readily see that this is not true, since the presence of strict moderation tells people to behave in a certain way, and this then forms the genereal communal behaviour.
The notion that behaviour online cannot be effectively regulated is just quite... divorced from reality and pointlessly fatalistic.
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On March 09 2015 16:57 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:43 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:25 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:On March 09 2015 13:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 09 2015 13:18 wei2coolman wrote:[quote] I don't think you got the point where we're saying the type of discrimination is a moot point. They'll literally say anything to get a rouse out of anyone. If making fun of your gender/sex/race/stereotypes/religion, etc gets you to get mad, guess what the fuck they're gunna keep doing? + Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 06:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 06:35 Slaughter wrote:
I think something to consider and to look into is if females get more crap thrown at them then males. My personal experience of gaming across multiple platforms has been tame as fuck compared to a fair amount of my female peers. It just always seemed to be that they got more harassment then males but it would be interesting to a study on how much either gender gets.
Its also is important to point out that "trolls" that people are constantly talking about are only a small part of the problem. Besides the obvious pure vitrol that is encountered by people is the form that a lot of people overlook. A more "milder" kind of attention that a person does not want from the "normal" playerbase. People bring up females who might have used this to gain some kind of advantage or better treatment but lets flip that and think of the people who don't want extra attention. So a person will be like "oh but im being nice!" when your making the other party uncomfortable. Then those people turn around and label them a bitch because they didn't respond to their unwanted and unsolicited "nice guy" praise. You can't deny that a large amount of male gamers will act differently one way or another if they know the other party is female and not in a good way. you're getting to hung up on the "type of shit", that's being flung. online anonymous people fling insults at EVERYONE. If sexist insults gets your panties in a bunch, guess what happens? they're gunna keep using it. It's the same for anyone on the internet, not just females. There's no winning. If you're black, everyone starts making watermelon jokes, and shit. If you're mexican, ton of border jumping jokes. If you're asian, small dick jokes. If you're gay, all the penis in butt jokes. If you're transgender, cross dress jokes. It's the nature of anonymous gaming culture to insult anything they can. If you're a cis white male? guess what? your mom's been fucked by everyone else last night. That's just how online culture is, female based insults is nothing different from the norm. It's irrelevant what the motivation is, especially when the attacks are far more personal in nature (racist/sexist), or result in more disturbing actions (women are more often stalked/harassed outside of the internet). Not only that, I'm calling BS on the fact that the motivation is simply to troll everyone and not motivated by racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. inclinations. There's absolutely zero proof for that and it's simply something that comfortably fits your narrative. I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't. But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. I dunno, my favorite time in gaming has always been the hilarious flame wars in CS 1.3-1.6. so.... not exactly non-bias here. Well quite simply then, if throwing around racist, sexist, homophobic, and discriminatory nonsense is integral to the "fun" of video games, we should obviously be seriously reflecting on why this is the case. Just as how football is currently having a serious look at the hooligan culture that comes from hardcore fans. And it can change, just as how football is making some very painful progress in address racism. The fun isn't tossing them out. The fun is at the reaction. case in point Point stands - why do we as a community require this sorts of frankly shameful and extremely juvenile outbursts as part of our entertainment. I again draw a comparison to football - imagine if fans said hey keep the racists comments in because we like to troll racist fans and see their reaction.
Because it's funny. Just look at any comedy routine, from standup, to skit routines, it's all about lampooning a group of people, and it's fucking hilarious. Similarly it's hilarious to watch top 10 fail vids on espn. Schadenfruede is in people's nature.
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Stand ups and so on are fictional performances, and happen in a particular space that is obviously intended for humour. I do not think that anyone would seriously doing something in the ordinary course of their life just because it was done (and was funny) in the context of a comedy skit.
Anyway are we not playing games for the fun of the game itself? Why is there a need for a comedy side show that requires the misery of others? I mean... that link you just posted involved a child being told he is adopted. Is that sort of beating down of others really necessary for our enjoyment of gaming as a hobby?
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On March 09 2015 17:10 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 16:49 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements. You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post? This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour. As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Yes, laws only work after the fact because they're entirely about punishment after a crime has been committed. But we're not talking about punishing mean people on the internet (which is more than feasible), we're talking about stopping mean people from saying mean things. And an online game does not function like a forum. When you push that "Find Game" button and look for a game, you're basically putting yourself in a chatroom with at least 1 other person selected completely at random. Now, you can disable all chat completely, which works just fine, but there is no magic button for "I'd only like nice chat please". You've missed my point that laws have a prescriptive function. People do not steal things in part because it is the law. The this way the law guides or prescribes behaviour. In the same vein, having strong policies against harassment in forum or games will guide behaviour accordingly. In your example, if you look at DOTA people know that abandoning games will get your stuck in low priority. Knowing this, people now abandon games a lot less than back in DOTA one when there was no such penalty. Interestingly enoguh, the current system also encourages people to try and make come backs despite being at a disadvantage (i.e. the behvariou shaping function of rules and systems of regulation). Replace abandoning games with harassment and you can arrive at the same point. ...I'm...pretty sure there've been threads and threads about how the report->mute system has zero effect on people raging, and low priority being an extremely cyclical occurrence. AKA, how the punishments have done very little for the behaviour. And there are a lot more reasons behind the difference in number of abandons in DotA 1 compared to 2 than just Low Priority. But low priority is part of that system of regulation. Anyway if you don't like the DOTA example, just look at this forum then. Technically, if we applied your argument, people here would still be spouting memes, one liners, mom jokes, and so on because strict moderation does not prevent people from being mean. But we can readily see that this is not true, since the presence of strict moderation tells people to behave in a certain way, and this then forms the genereal communal behaviour. The notion that behaviour online cannot be effectively regulated is just quite... divorced from reality and pointlessly fatalistic.
We do get that shit here. Moderation doesn't stop it from happening, it just removes it after-the-fact and deletes it from record.
In a game, you don't care about the record, you're caring about the words that are happening in real time.
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On March 09 2015 16:55 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:34 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:
You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post?
This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour.
As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Who do you want to be the police of the internet then? Comments like this I think come generally from a misunderstanding of: (a) The notion that the internet is not already policed or regulated. It is, and your conduct on the internet is subject to the same kinds of laws that would guide normal real life conduct. If the internet was truly some sort of lawless anything goes frontier, buying things with credit cards would be impossible. In fact internet regulation goes much deeper than just the conduct of users, but the entire design of the net as a communication system. Please read a little on this wonderful thing called the internet. (b) The notion that you even need an internet police to guide user behvaviour. You do not. Content and service providers on the internet can take a strong stand against things like harassment and make it part and parcel of community moderation.
I know how the internet works, sorry for not explaining my position properly and causing you to assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I gave that statement specifically in regard to your suggestion of moderating the internet from harassment. If I misinterpreted your suggestion, I'll apologize.
No, the internet is not governed by the same rules as "offline" because of the anonymity principle, as I explained above. You can get away with saying way more online than you can in real life, because other's cant immediately retaliate in any meaningful way, and the resources typically aren't there for sueing such people for harassment or slander like you would somebody who was doing these things to you in real life (you often can't even be certain if it's one person or a collective). It happens occassionally that somebody gets their just deserts for being a dick on the internet, but it's rare (relative to 'offline').
You're giving a lot of freedom away with the whole "say something I don't like and I'll remove your ability to say it" line of reasoning. Even worse when you're suggesting giving a select group of people the power to decide what is right or wrong to say. Freedom of Speech might not mean Freedom to Harass, but it does mean Freedom to Have and Voice Opinions, even if they aren't ones you agree with. This power would inevitably end up being abused, stunting discussions and opening up new issues such as moderating the moderaters, ect.
And this isn't even getting into the manpower and resources that would be required to come even close to the amount of moderation you're talking about. It's much better to create an automated system that deters this, as you reasoned later. Not giving a select few power, but creating systems that encourage good behavoir and penalize bad behavior as a collective.
Also notice how none of the solution has anything to do with gender, which is what this debate started with. We at least agree on this topic, that the solution isn't to 'encourage trolls and bullies to not sexually harass females'. Yes, we get it, females are harassed and worse than males, so let's start working on solutions that (might) work.
Sorry for any typos as this keyboard is sticky.
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but, BUT!, what if education ... is what these kind of topics always seem to come down to.
different view points shifting some perspectives around is still nice see.
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On March 09 2015 17:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 17:10 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 16:49 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:
[quote]
Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box.
I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not.
The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements. You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post? This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour. As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Yes, laws only work after the fact because they're entirely about punishment after a crime has been committed. But we're not talking about punishing mean people on the internet (which is more than feasible), we're talking about stopping mean people from saying mean things. And an online game does not function like a forum. When you push that "Find Game" button and look for a game, you're basically putting yourself in a chatroom with at least 1 other person selected completely at random. Now, you can disable all chat completely, which works just fine, but there is no magic button for "I'd only like nice chat please". You've missed my point that laws have a prescriptive function. People do not steal things in part because it is the law. The this way the law guides or prescribes behaviour. In the same vein, having strong policies against harassment in forum or games will guide behaviour accordingly. In your example, if you look at DOTA people know that abandoning games will get your stuck in low priority. Knowing this, people now abandon games a lot less than back in DOTA one when there was no such penalty. Interestingly enoguh, the current system also encourages people to try and make come backs despite being at a disadvantage (i.e. the behvariou shaping function of rules and systems of regulation). Replace abandoning games with harassment and you can arrive at the same point. ...I'm...pretty sure there've been threads and threads about how the report->mute system has zero effect on people raging, and low priority being an extremely cyclical occurrence. AKA, how the punishments have done very little for the behaviour. And there are a lot more reasons behind the difference in number of abandons in DotA 1 compared to 2 than just Low Priority. But low priority is part of that system of regulation. Anyway if you don't like the DOTA example, just look at this forum then. Technically, if we applied your argument, people here would still be spouting memes, one liners, mom jokes, and so on because strict moderation does not prevent people from being mean. But we can readily see that this is not true, since the presence of strict moderation tells people to behave in a certain way, and this then forms the genereal communal behaviour. The notion that behaviour online cannot be effectively regulated is just quite... divorced from reality and pointlessly fatalistic. We do get that shit here. Moderation doesn't stop it from happening, it just removes it after-the-fact and deletes it from record. In a game, you don't care about the record, you're caring about the words that are happening in real time.
Do you get the point I am making that systems of rules have a prescriptive effect on future behaviour? Because you're just repeating a point I have tried to address.
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On March 09 2015 16:49 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:34 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 15:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 09 2015 15:23 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:On March 09 2015 13:42 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 13:40 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
I mean that applies the same to your assumptions, there's no proof either way, you can't sort every bit of social interaction and read the minds of the people involved and dissect their motivations and sort what was trolling and what wasn't.
But there are compelling reasons to think the biggest issue here is not necessarily the loudest one (the one that gets such a media payday). If you imagine 10 white guys playing whatever Call of Duty 7 calling each other faggots, add 1 girl and they call her a bitch, would you say the root cause or problem at work was sexism/misogyny? Does this make sense or where did I mess up? I'd say that the white guys obviously have problems respecting others and two aspects of this come up as misogyny and homophobi, and we can and should tackle both. now it's white guys? talk about presumptuous Please invest the 30 seconds it would take to read the preceeding quote before climbing back on to your soap box. I wish everyone could just take a step back and look at what the documentary is asking. And most of it is actually stuff everyone can agree on - a more polite, inclusive, and mature gaming community. Can this happen for homosexuals etc too? Yes. So let's have that discussion as well. Can this happen for straight white males too? Sure. Will progress in the area of sexual comments mean that people will now be even ruder to straight and gay males? of course not. The problem generally comes down to two things: One, you're wishing for people not to be mean on the internet. Two, you're wishing for intentionally offensive people on the internet not to use language that's really offensive. And I suppose a third problem would be that "wishing" is an accurate description how those would be achieved. If you feel that this is all a waste of time, then please crawl back into your own hole of defeat while the rest of the community tries to be a bit better. Take a good look at Teamliquid and how the mod team works very hard to keep discussion civil and mature here. Then take a long look at places where no such moderation is in effect. A better community is certainly achievable and not some utopian dream. Teamliquid only has to moderate a few thousand people at any given time of the day, and they still can't stop people from saying offensive things. They can only deal with it after the fact. Same goes for any online game, just with a concurrent population that's upscaled with a lot more zeroes. You can ban mean people after the fact, but you can't stop people from being exposed to mean statements. You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post? This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour. As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Yes, laws only work after the fact because they're entirely about punishment after a crime has been committed. But we're not talking about punishing mean people on the internet (which is more than feasible), we're talking about stopping mean people from saying mean things. And an online game does not function like a forum. When you push that "Find Game" button and look for a game, you're basically putting yourself in a chatroom with at least 1 other person selected completely at random. Now, you can disable all chat completely, which works just fine, but there is no magic button for "I'd only like nice chat please". You've missed my point that laws have a prescriptive function. People do not steal things in part because it is the law. The this way the law guides or prescribes behaviour.
this is a misconception a lot of people have. people dont do certain things because its socially unaccepted to do so, laws only come second. harsher laws for example dont decrease crime rates, it doesnt matter if you sentence someone to death for murder or send him to that norwegian prison that looks more like a summer camp (and has the lowest reoffender rate if i remember correctly), murder rates are not affected by it.
in other cases laws against something can even increase the rate of those things. i.e. the prohibition in america has made alcohol a widespread culture phenomenon while it was mainly something the very rich and very poor consumed before that. there are also more marihuanna consumers in germany compared to the netherlands where it is free to sell and consume.
on the other hand there are things which are socially unaccepted but not strictly forbidden. for example in germany it is almost impossible to get someone from your family a job in the company you work for without people calling you out for nepotism (except in bavaria, they are strange people!). its not illegal to do so, but you better dont do it.
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On March 09 2015 17:23 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 16:55 levelping wrote:On March 09 2015 16:34 Pursuit_ wrote:On March 09 2015 16:18 levelping wrote:
You realise that in that line of logic, there's no point having real world laws against murder/theft etc because the law only functions ex post?
This is obviously faulty thinking since any system of rules have both corrective and prescriptive functions. Moderation obviously works on one hand to ban people, but it also prescribes rules for people to follow to avoid being banned. And after enough people follow, it becomes customary and not so much rule following. Couple this with incentives to be nice like upvoting and so on and you have the beginnings of a move towards better behaviour.
As a community that can consider ad nausuem how to balance a unit by tweaking numbers/design/maps/play style, is our collective imagination really so dead to the ways in which we can improve in this area? Who do you want to be the police of the internet then? Comments like this I think come generally from a misunderstanding of: (a) The notion that the internet is not already policed or regulated. It is, and your conduct on the internet is subject to the same kinds of laws that would guide normal real life conduct. If the internet was truly some sort of lawless anything goes frontier, buying things with credit cards would be impossible. In fact internet regulation goes much deeper than just the conduct of users, but the entire design of the net as a communication system. Please read a little on this wonderful thing called the internet. (b) The notion that you even need an internet police to guide user behvaviour. You do not. Content and service providers on the internet can take a strong stand against things like harassment and make it part and parcel of community moderation. I know how the internet works, sorry for not explaining my position properly and causing you to assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I gave that statement specifically in regard to your suggestion of moderating the internet from harassment. If I misinterpreted your suggestion, I'll apologize. No, the internet is not governed by the same rules as "offline" because of the anonymity principle, as I explained above. You can get away with saying way more online than you can in real life, because other's cant immediately retaliate in any meaningful way, and the resources typically aren't there for sueing such people for harassment or slander like you would somebody who was doing these things to you in real life (you often can't even be certain if it's one person or a collective). It happens occassionally that somebody gets their just deserts for being a dick on the internet, but it's rare (relative to 'offline'). You're giving a lot of freedom away with the whole "say something I don't like and I'll remove your ability to say it" line of reasoning. Even worse when you're suggesting giving a select group of people the power to decide what is right or wrong to say. Freedom of Speech might not mean Freedom to Harass, but it does mean Freedom to Have and Voice Opinions, even if they aren't ones you agree with. This power would inevitably end up being abused, stunting discussions and opening up new issues such as moderating the moderaters, ect. And this isn't even getting into the manpower and resources that would be required to come even close to the amount of moderation you're talking about. It's much better to create an automated system that deters this, as you reasoned later. Not giving a select few power, but creating systems that encourage good behavoir and penalize bad behavior as a collective. Also notice how none of the solution has anything to do with gender, which is what this debate started with. We at least agree on this topic, that the solution isn't to 'encourage trolls and bullies to not sexually harass females'. Yes, we get it, females are harassed and worse than males, so let's start working on solutions that (might) work. Sorry for any typos as this keyboard is sticky.
You've brought up a number of issues so I'll just jump in:
1) I am sure you know that the Freedom of Speech as generally understood is a public law right between citizens and their elected governments, and that there is generally no requirement for there to be an equivalent on the internet where the relationships are between private individuals. A game or a forum can be as regulated as the people running the game want it to be.
2) Regulation need not be manual, and the best systems i think would combine automatic systems, community input, as well as human moderation. Regulation by design is actually a very interesting area - since game design effectively creates a world from scratch, you can design your game in a manner which makes harassment much less likely to occur. A very crude example of this is how World of Warcraft has artificial language barriers between Alliance and Horde characters - I find this to be rather primitive (and probably creates some harassment too), but it's an example of regulation by a design restriction. The more draconian example is Hearthstone, where you can't harass at all simply since you have no chat options.
3) We have been talking about the "how" of preventing harassment. Gender comes in at the substance of what is regulated. It along with other areas like racism, and homophobia should be the substance of a system of regulation.
4) And anyway, apart from just regulation, discussion on gender harassment is part of the wider education of the community, and making people more aware that it is generally a shitty thing to tell anyone that you will rape them, and that it is especially terrible to say it to a girl. I mean just looking at this trend there are people who do not even think this is a problem, and are fine with everyone just "dealing with it".
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EPT
