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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On May 01 2017 17:59 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +The front-runner in the French presidential election has told the BBC that the EU must reform or face the prospect of "Frexit".
Pro-EU centrist Emmanuel Macron made the comments as he and his far-right rival Marine Le Pen entered the last week of campaigning.
French voters go to the polls on Sunday to decide between the pair.
Ms Le Pen has capitalised on anti-EU feeling, and has promised a referendum on France's membership.
She won support in rural and former industrial areas by promising to retake control of France's borders from the EU and slash immigration.
"I'm a pro-European, I defended constantly during this election the European idea and European policies because I believe it's extremely important for French people and for the place of our country in globalisation," Mr Macron, leader of the recently created En Marche! movement, told the BBC.
"But at the same time we have to face the situation, to listen to our people, and to listen to the fact that they are extremely angry today, impatient and the dysfunction of the EU is no more sustainable.
"So I do consider that my mandate, the day after, will be at the same time to reform in depth the European Union and our European project."
Mr Macron added that if he were to allow the EU to continue to function as it was would be a "betrayal".
"And I don't want to do so," he said. "Because the day after, we will have a Frexit or we will have [Ms Le Pen's] National Front (FN) again." SourceIn context sounds like an attempt to siphon a few Le Pen potential voters by saying what they might want to hear. He clearly has not a single Eurosceptic bone in his body so it's more along the lines of the "EU needs some form of vague unspecified reform" that we tend to hear about these days.
Pure lip service, he already said that “France needs reforms to be credible when talking with Germany”, he went to Berlin to pledge allegiance, the rest is just his usual opportunistic empty talk
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France12907 Posts
On May 01 2017 18:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 17:59 LegalLord wrote:The front-runner in the French presidential election has told the BBC that the EU must reform or face the prospect of "Frexit".
Pro-EU centrist Emmanuel Macron made the comments as he and his far-right rival Marine Le Pen entered the last week of campaigning.
French voters go to the polls on Sunday to decide between the pair.
Ms Le Pen has capitalised on anti-EU feeling, and has promised a referendum on France's membership.
She won support in rural and former industrial areas by promising to retake control of France's borders from the EU and slash immigration.
"I'm a pro-European, I defended constantly during this election the European idea and European policies because I believe it's extremely important for French people and for the place of our country in globalisation," Mr Macron, leader of the recently created En Marche! movement, told the BBC.
"But at the same time we have to face the situation, to listen to our people, and to listen to the fact that they are extremely angry today, impatient and the dysfunction of the EU is no more sustainable.
"So I do consider that my mandate, the day after, will be at the same time to reform in depth the European Union and our European project."
Mr Macron added that if he were to allow the EU to continue to function as it was would be a "betrayal".
"And I don't want to do so," he said. "Because the day after, we will have a Frexit or we will have [Ms Le Pen's] National Front (FN) again." SourceIn context sounds like an attempt to siphon a few Le Pen potential voters by saying what they might want to hear. He clearly has not a single Eurosceptic bone in his body so it's more along the lines of the "EU needs some form of vague unspecified reform" that we tend to hear about these days. Pure lip service, he already said that “France needs reforms to be credible when talking with Germany”, he went to Berlin to pledge allegiance, the rest is just his usual opportunistic empty talk
Isn't opportunistic empty talk the core of politics?
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It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags.
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On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags.
i think you may be biased, because as far as i can see there is not that many french flag at political rallies
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On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags.
Organizers distribute them before the meeting, makes images a bit more impressive on TV
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On May 01 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags. Organizers distribute them before the meeting, makes images a bit more impressive on TV
Makes sense.
On May 01 2017 21:43 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags. i think you may be biased, because as far as i can see there is not that many french flag at political rallies
Why on earth would I be biased about how many flags I see...?
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On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags.
I dunno, Le Pen's meeting two hours ago was a masterpiece of empty talk. Except that, unlike Macron's empty talk that's pandering to middle-class-to-higher-class people, Le Pen's empty talk is pandering to lower-class-to-middle-class people. I kinda fail to see how that's better.
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On May 01 2017 22:14 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags. I dunno, Le Pen's meeting two hours ago was a masterpiece of empty talk. Except that, unlike Macron's empty talk that's pandering to middle-class-to-higher-class people, Le Pen's empty talk is pandering to lower-class-to-middle-class people. I kinda fail to see how that's better.
Maybe it's at the core of her campaigning but I don't think if she got into office she would just be dressing up the status quo in every superlative synonym she could find. But who knows, really. Trump is a radical politician who's realised it's actually quite hard to change things. Although actually I'm not sure how radical he is, in policy terms. He's just radically different from what politicians normally look like. Le Pen would be more radical than him.
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On May 01 2017 18:10 Big J wrote:
Just your textbook conservative these days: "Hey, we made the EU what it is. We have stalled progress and created a shitty nationalist-neoliberal hierarchy inside it. This really doesn't work, we have to make it more nationalist-neoliberal."
You think Macron is a conservative?
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On May 01 2017 22:22 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 22:14 OtherWorld wrote:On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags. I dunno, Le Pen's meeting two hours ago was a masterpiece of empty talk. Except that, unlike Macron's empty talk that's pandering to middle-class-to-higher-class people, Le Pen's empty talk is pandering to lower-class-to-middle-class people. I kinda fail to see how that's better. Maybe it's at the core of her campaigning but I don't think if she got into office she would just be dressing up the status quo in every superlative synonym she could find. But who knows, really. Trump is a radical politician who's realised it's actually quite hard to change things. Although actually I'm not sure how radical he is, in policy terms. He's just radically different from what politicians normally look like. Le Pen would be more radical than him.
Trump is an opportunist who repeats what he hears on conservative talk show radio in a way that doesn't really have much to do with reality but that caters to his audience of choice. He doesn't really have principles so he is easy to mould according to the desires of more deep-seated government entities.
Le Pen is quite clearly an ideologue. I wouldn't expect someone like her to stray far from her core promises considering that she and her party have wanted the same thing for decades. And while I don't care for most of it, she does want the end of the EU, which is a respectable goal in and of itself and probably the most important issue right now, so even if I were French I might be willing to tolerate the stupid to achieve that goal.
Happy May Day!
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On May 01 2017 22:22 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 22:14 OtherWorld wrote:On May 01 2017 20:27 bardtown wrote:
It's the core of managerial centrist politics, which is why radical politicians are taking chunks out of them.
Question for Frenchies: is it normal to see so many flags waving at political rallies? I see even more French flags than US flags. I dunno, Le Pen's meeting two hours ago was a masterpiece of empty talk. Except that, unlike Macron's empty talk that's pandering to middle-class-to-higher-class people, Le Pen's empty talk is pandering to lower-class-to-middle-class people. I kinda fail to see how that's better. Maybe it's at the core of her campaigning but I don't think if she got into office she would just be dressing up the status quo in every superlative synonym she could find. But who knows, really. Trump is a radical politician who's realised it's actually quite hard to change things. Although actually I'm not sure how radical he is, in policy terms. He's just radically different from what politicians normally look like. Le Pen would be more radical than him.
So, doing empty talk campaigning in order to keep the status quo and gain personal profit from power (Macron) is better than doing empty talk campaigning in order to establish an authoritarian, reactionary and xenophobic state and gain personal profit from power (Le Pen) ?
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+ Show Spoiler +
Insane success from Le Pen: barely 25% in her biggest vote reserve!
Now, behold tactical genius:
+ Show Spoiler +
Dupont-Aignan rallies Le Pen and gets in return a PM promise: his party explodes and only 31% of his voters intend to vote for Le Pen... despite Le Pen sharing like 90% of Dupont-Aignan's ideas.
+ Show Spoiler +
Small mobilization of people who abstained... to block Le Pen.
Pathetic paper devil
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On May 02 2017 00:18 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2017 18:10 Big J wrote:
Just your textbook conservative these days: "Hey, we made the EU what it is. We have stalled progress and created a shitty nationalist-neoliberal hierarchy inside it. This really doesn't work, we have to make it more nationalist-neoliberal." You think Macron is a conservative?
Reading his programm, I have honestly no clue why the media would call him "social-liberal" or "left-liberal". Everything social or left are vague words or at best suggestions for investment, which he does not clarify whether he wants to spend that amount totally (which may or may not be a change at all) or additionally to the status quo.
While everything he does in terms of right-wing economics and extra police/military is given in hard numbers. He pretty much sounds like a middle-of-the-road conservative, not too radical with his liberalization fantasies, not overboard with the extra security and pro-European integration "but superslowly please".
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So a bunch of opinions, selective reporting, things taken out of context, still several unsubstantiated claims on your part, plus a couple of things you've said that you presented more or less objectively. Your post is all over the place and you did not substantiate most of your claims, so I'm going to address it as a whole.
You're as biased as Reporters Without Borders. Let me show you what they have to say about the state of media in Poland to see what I mean.
Just weeks after winning the 2015 parliamentary elections, the conservative Law and Justice party passed a media law in December 2015 giving the government (1) direct control over public broadcasting. (2) It immediately used this power to dismiss those running the state radio and TV stations. (3) After turning the state media into propaganda tools, (4) the government tried to financially throttle several independent print media outlets (including Gazeta Wyborcza, Polityka and Newsweek Polska) by ordering all state agencies to cancel their subscriptions. In December 2016, the government had to abandon plans to restrict media access to parliament after thousands of people took to the streets in a show of concern about media freedom. Concern is now focused on a proposed law to “re-Polishize” the country’s press by setting a limit on the level of foreign capital in Polish media companies. Alarmed to see a European Union member flouting fundamental EU values, the European Commission launched a procedure in January 2016 that is designed to ensure respect for the rule of law. In response to the grave and repeated violations of media freedom and pluralism, RSF issued a call to the EU in October 2016 to impose sanctions on Poland, including financial sanctions.
Ad 1. Before this change the institution controlling public media was still under a strong influence of whichever party was currently in power. That statement looks much worse without a context.
Ad 2. Previous governments did the same thing. Doesn't make it right, but it's a political reality. Some people running state radio stations resigned on their own (not all) out of protest, which made the situation look worse than it really was.
Ad 3. Again, lack of context. When PO-PSL were in power, most public broadcasters were mildly pro-government, and a couple of them favored PO a lot. You could argue that PiS changed the proportions, chiefly by making TVP (public TV network) heavily pro-PiS, but they certainly did not make the situation that much worse - TVP went from mildly pro-government to heavily pro-government.
Somehow Reporters Without Borders were not bothered by the previous situation (during the PO-PSL times) where all three major TV networks (TVP, Polsat and TVN; the latter two are private) were either mildly pro-PO (TVP and Polsat) or heavily pro-PO. If you're okay with biased journalism (I am not), you could argue that there's more pluralism now, with TVP being heavily pro-PiS, TVN heavily pro-PO and Polsat mostly neutral.
Ad 4. Now that is a good one. The previous government effectively subsidized media outlets that were heavily PO-biased through unnecessary advertisements (why would state agencies or various state-owned monopolies need advertising?). PiS simply funneled that stream of money to PiS-biased media outlets. The same applies to subscriptions at state agencies. It's ridiculous to assume that left-leaning media should be favored and subsidized by the government by default.
And so on, and so on.
At the same time, in their earlier opinions RWB failed to mention the police raiding the office of "Wprost" (which released tapes incriminating PO) or PO (through Paweł Graś) having the owner of "Rzeczpospolita" (one of the most popular daily newspapers in Poland), Grzegorz Hajdarowicz, pressure the editorial staff into not being critical of PO.
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Somehow, the arguemnt that the previous government had some media influence before, so it's not that bad that the current government has overwhelmingly increased their power over media, is as unconvincing as lastpuritans.
But at the least from the way you guys have framed your arguement; that of bias towards political parties, we can see how your minds work; you didn't support the previous party in government, so even a little influence over media is a transgression, but since you support the current party in power, it's now fine for the government to have dictatorial powers and influence.
That you support a current party in power, does not make reduction of media freedoms and independence of judiciary any better.
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On May 02 2017 02:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Somehow, the arguemnt that the previous government had some media influence before, so it's not that bad that the current government has overwhelmingly increased their power over media, is as unconvincing as lastpuritans.
But at the least from the way you guys have framed your arguement; that of bias towards political parties, we can see how your minds work; you didn't support the previous party in government, so even a little influence over media is a transgression, but since you support the current party in power, it's now fine for the government to have dictatorial powers and influence.
That you support a current party in power, does not make reduction of media freedoms and independence of judiciary any better.
LOL, did you even read my post? Where did I say I am okay with the current situation? All I am saying is that RWB were perfectly okay with the situation that was not that much better (and worse in terms of pluralism in major TV networks) and yet are blowing the current situation way out of proportion, while having ignored serious transgressions on PO's part.
You're imagining things, mate.
According to you, PO bullies a major news paper into not being critical of the government and has police raid the office of another newspaper due to incriminating tapes = democratic values and rule of law. PiS exerts more control over public media, making them more pro-government = dictatorial power. Are you for real?
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Really guys, all this aside, media influence etc. isn't the scariest thing. What's the worst is the fact that the person effectively running our country now (PiS chairman) holds no official position within the government and rules in a true "grey eminence" fashion (notice how foreign officials are meeting with him instead of following the usual route of meeting with the minister of foreign affairs and/or the president).
Because he holds no official position, he can't be held accountable for his decisions in the usual way. That's what scares me the most. Freaking puppet government 
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or better, could any of you shed some light on this?: https://www.agerpres.ro/english/2017/04/28/crown-princess-margareta-to-become-royal-patron-of-poland-army-s-17th-mechanised-brigade-17-11-42 Romanian Crown Princess Margareta is the royal patron of the 17th Mechanised Brigade of the Polish Army, which, according to Polish officials, will be renamed King Carol II of Romania.
"The Romanian crown princess has proudly and gratefully accepted the proposal of Polish officials, considering that this noble initiative contributes to deepening bilateral relationship between Romania and Poland, its defence and national security components, as well as their joint European prospects," according to a press statement released on Friday by King Mihai I's Press Office. i mean, does it happen often and stuff?; what deal was made behind it? .. etc.
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EPT
