|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things...
Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen and apparantly, it's not even worth to question this. I am not totally against free market or the capitalist system (wanting always more is in human nature afterall but it should be moderated by society).
However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against.
For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits.
While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader.
|
Why are Hamon voters so convinced? Because he is so bad he couldn't convince any of the reluctant folk to vote for him?
|
On April 24 2017 05:21 LegalLord wrote:
Why are Hamon voters so convinced? Because he is so bad he couldn't convince any of the reluctant folk to vote for him?
Because he was reduced to his convinced core lol, that's what happens when you score 6%
|
France12907 Posts
On April 24 2017 05:20 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things... Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen. I am not totally against free market but there are a lot of stuff which should just stop. However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against. For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits. While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader.
There is no "good" or "bad" side of history tho
|
On April 24 2017 05:20 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things... Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen and apparantly, it's not even worth to question this. I am not totally against free market or the capitalist system (wanting always more is in human nature afterall but it should be moderated by society). However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against. For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits. While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader.
Ah, yes, the nation-state. How people can talk with a straight face about that concept in France, a country where it was created through sheer force and cultural genocide of local cultures and languages and where it died more than a hundred years ago with the European immigration of the late XIXth century, is sickening to me.
|
Poll from 19-22 April, but interesting to understand the motivations of each electorate. What are the 3 themes which matter the most in your vote?
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/616940Enjeuxduvote.jpg) Purchase power Immigration Unemployment Terrorism Taxes Social inequalities Insecurity Pensions Health system
|
So immigration and terrorism sums up Le Pen. Couldn't the EU slow down immigration from outside Europe or do they think that's not enough?
|
On April 24 2017 05:26 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 05:20 stilt wrote:On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things... Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen and apparantly, it's not even worth to question this. I am not totally against free market or the capitalist system (wanting always more is in human nature afterall but it should be moderated by society). However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against. For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits. While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader. Ah, yes, the nation-state. How people can talk with a straight face about that concept in France, a country where it was created through sheer force and cultural genocide of local cultures and languages and where it died more than a hundred years ago with the European immigration of the late XIXth century, is sickening to me.
Yeah, feodalism was so much better and liberalism for sure prove to be quite healthy for the 1% in which you seem to be part of.
If I can reassure you, you make me sick too.
|
Vote by age:
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HtbVIXkAMULbD.jpg)
1) Mélenchon stomps everyone with the youngest <3
2) Notice Fillon's huge success below 50 years (planned death of the governmental right here)
3) Elders killed Mélenchon, as expected...
Vote by CSP:
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HwoJHXgAEsTYx.jpg)
Don't know how to translate cadre... Senior executive?
Intermediary professions
Employee
Worker
Retired
1) Lower classes want to flip the table
2) Upper classes want statu quo/more neoliberalism
Vote per diploma:
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HxmpuXkAACH3k.jpg)
1) As usual, people with no or “low” diploma massively vote for Le Pen
2) As usual, people with the highest level of diploma vote for the liberal centrist
Vote per income:
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HzNdEW0AA3kf7.jpg)
Speaks for itself...
1) Macron and Fillon candidates of the riches
2) Mélenchon and Le Pen overperform among the poor and modest
In a few graphs you can understand why the French society is blocked and doomed, the result in 2 weeks won't stabilize it
|
I know many French people will get angry, but France needs to stop being so socialist if they want better economy. 35-hour work week? Really? I work 37.5 hours and I'd not mind working 40 hours if necessary if salary is increased.
|
Honestly, dominating the 18-24 is not a good thing. 25-34 is basically a better version of the 18-24 age group. Still not regressive old shits, but also not as heavily swayed by the memes
|
On April 24 2017 05:26 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 05:20 stilt wrote:On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things... Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen and apparantly, it's not even worth to question this. I am not totally against free market or the capitalist system (wanting always more is in human nature afterall but it should be moderated by society). However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against. For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits. While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader. Ah, yes, the nation-state. How people can talk with a straight face about that concept in France, a country where it was created through sheer force and cultural genocide of local cultures and languages and where it died more than a hundred years ago with the European immigration of the late XIXth century, is sickening to me.
?? Immigration doesn't kill the nation-state, it simply kills the far-right fantasy of an ethnically “pure” people.
On April 24 2017 05:33 Shield wrote:
So immigration and terrorism sums up Le Pen. Couldn't the EU slow down immigration from outside Europe or do they think that's not enough?
France already has one of the lowest immigration in developed countries, there's not much to slow down to begin with; it's mostly in their head
|
the fixed work week is bad from a left-wing perspective too, drives poor people into the shadow economy because unproductive workers with low pay / hour can't really sustain an adequate income.
|
On April 24 2017 05:40 Shield wrote:
I know many French people will get angry, but France needs to stop being so socialist if they want better economy. 35-hour work week? Really? I work 37.5 hours and I'd not mind working 40 hours if necessary if salary is increased.
no one work 35 hours in this country, not even state servant
and it's not about hours worked, but productivity : you can have african farmers working 15 hours a day, an software enginner in europe can produce more wealth by working 30 minutes (made up numbers, but you understand what i mean)
|
How well-liked was Hollande upon election in France?
|
On April 24 2017 05:44 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 05:40 Shield wrote:
I know many French people will get angry, but France needs to stop being so socialist if they want better economy. 35-hour work week? Really? I work 37.5 hours and I'd not mind working 40 hours if necessary if salary is increased. no one work 35 hours in this country, not even state servant
So what's that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek
|
On April 24 2017 05:40 Shield wrote:
I know many French people will get angry, but France needs to stop being so socialist if they want better economy. 35-hour work week? Really? I work 37.5 hours and I'd not mind working 40 hours if necessary if salary is increased.
1) France is not “socialist,” we have a mixed economy
2) 35 hours work week is the legal length (with endless possibilities of derogations), the average length of effective work is 39 hours
3) Our productivity is among the highest, so working individually more would simply result in more unemployment
On April 24 2017 05:41 Mohdoo wrote:
Honestly, dominating the 18-24 is not a good thing. 25-34 is basically a better version of the 18-24 age group. Still not regressive old shits, but also not as heavily swayed by the memes
Oh yes it is, because he may have taken like 10 points from Le Pen there. Better have them politically socialized with progressist ideas of social, ecological and democratic transformation than with nationalist and racist dirt
|
On April 24 2017 05:20 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things... Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen and apparantly, it's not even worth to question this. I am not totally against free market or the capitalist system (wanting always more is in human nature afterall but it should be moderated by society). However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against. For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits. While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader.
The nation-state is the only thing that is internationally accepted and won't be invaded by global elites. If you try any construct of organization other than the nation-state and declare independence from the state you are living in (which you have to do since there is no "free-land" anywhere), they will use whatever force they can muster to destroy you. If you find a cultural-national motive, you may have a chance.
If you look at the map of the world or in particular Europe over the last 100-years, you can see how the nation state has been the route to freedom for many people. It's not that all those tiny states needed to self-organize, but if your choice is Russia or independence, well guess what you are going to take.
Long story short, I don't see the nation-state going away anytime soon. The only challenge I could see is global enterprises becoming so powerful that they and some of their employers may reach a certain amount of independece.
|
On April 24 2017 05:45 LegalLord wrote:
How well-liked was Hollande upon election in France?
53%
|
On April 24 2017 05:45 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 05:44 Makro wrote:On April 24 2017 05:40 Shield wrote:
I know many French people will get angry, but France needs to stop being so socialist if they want better economy. 35-hour work week? Really? I work 37.5 hours and I'd not mind working 40 hours if necessary if salary is increased. no one work 35 hours in this country, not even state servant So what's that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek
+ Show Spoiler +
one of the first source i've found but you will have access to the same relative numbers even for 2016
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://assets.weforum.org/editor/fCJQzuAjErQuCP5ctFz8WHDaK0dm8PbuKepY6LJI_ok.jpg)
