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On April 24 2017 06:19 Makro wrote:
the big question right now should probably be who will be the prime minister of macron the young and dynamic president
I'm afraid it might be Marisol Touraine if he can. Or Bayrou, he owes him something since the 3-4% Bayrou brought might have made the difference tonight.
On April 24 2017 06:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 06:06 OtherWorld wrote:On April 24 2017 05:42 TheDwf wrote:On April 24 2017 05:26 OtherWorld wrote:On April 24 2017 05:20 stilt wrote:On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things... Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen and apparantly, it's not even worth to question this. I am not totally against free market or the capitalist system (wanting always more is in human nature afterall but it should be moderated by society). However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against. For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits. While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader. Ah, yes, the nation-state. How people can talk with a straight face about that concept in France, a country where it was created through sheer force and cultural genocide of local cultures and languages and where it died more than a hundred years ago with the European immigration of the late XIXth century, is sickening to me. ?? Immigration doesn't kill the nation-state, it simply kills the far-right fantasy of an ethnically “pure” people. On April 24 2017 05:33 Shield wrote:
So immigration and terrorism sums up Le Pen. Couldn't the EU slow down immigration from outside Europe or do they think that's not enough? France already has one of the lowest immigration in developed countries, there's not much to slow down to begin with; it's mostly in their head A nation, at its core, is related to origins and birthplace ; it's even in its etymology (natio and nascor). A nation-state with immigration will have its people federate around a culture with common values (in which case it should be called a Culture-State), and/or a given political system (System-State ; case of people immigrating in or out of Communist, authoritarian or pluralist regimes), and/or common goals. But the very principle of nation goes against immigration, which is why nationalism, even "mild", always devolves into intolerance at best, and war at worst. If you have an ethnic conception of the nation, yes. But that's not the case in France, where it's supposed to be a political contract (the Republic); a civic nation. There is no Volk here.
I dunno, in practice I feel like the concept of nation and nation-state in France is often used to discriminate against people who are not "Français de souche" (whatever that means) ; there's no strong Volkisch ideology, but the underlying assumptions and reasoning that lead to a Volkisch ideology aren't absent. I understand the concept of a "civic nation", but to me it just shouldn't be called a nation-state. That's more of a civic-state.
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On April 24 2017 06:22 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 06:16 Shield wrote:So to change topic a bit. What are key ideas of Macron? Please be (relatively) objective.  I can probably google it, but I'm just looking for summary. Economic deregulation, emphasis on entrepreneurs, startups and new technologies, positive attitude towards globalization (in the sense that globalization is an opportunity to make money), strenghtening of the European Union (common Finance Minister for the EU, giving the 73 UK seats at the European Parliament to fully European lists instead of national ones, etc), decently progressive attitude on societal subjects (gay marriage, etc), heavily pro-US stance on international politics.
First half sounds good. Second half (from common finance minister onwards).. not sure, time will tell. I might see why some French people don't like him, but I still dislike Le Pen more.
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Probably also noteworthy that he seems to be more focused on security than would be typical for a social liberal candidate. He's come out against encryption, has mentioned EU border protection frequently and I think he also wanted to introduce a one month conscription.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
One-month conscription: all the problems of forcing people to drop everything and serve their term, none of the benefits of training reserve troopers?
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French people litterally voted for the "anti-system" guy who worked as an investment banker and is supported by the MEDEF (main businessmen association) and who's behind the desastrous economic laws under Hollande.
Hollande dropped to 4-10% approval rate.
Macron is known to be Hollande's sucessor and the craftsman of the main reforms under Hollande.
Macron gets 25% in the first round.
It's amazing what you can do with the support of the main medias.
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On April 24 2017 07:22 JackONeill wrote:
French people litterally voted for the "anti-system" guy who worked as an investment banker and is supported by the MEDEF (main businessmen association) and who's behind the desastrous economic laws under Hollande.
Hollande dropped to 4-10% approval rate.
Macron is known to be Hollande's sucessor and the craftsman of the main reforms under Hollande.
Macron gets 25% in the first round.
It's amazing what you can do with the support of the main medias.
I don't know about Macron or if he's good or bad. However, I can see it in my country that certain oligarchs own media and use it for political purposes. It's pretty sad.
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On April 24 2017 06:19 Makro wrote:
the big question right now should probably be who will be the prime minister of macron the young and dynamic president
Le Drian
On April 24 2017 07:15 LegalLord wrote:
One-month conscription: all the problems of forcing people to drop everything and serve their term, none of the benefits of training reserve troopers?
Yes, ridiculous
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On April 24 2017 07:15 LegalLord wrote:
One-month conscription: all the problems of forcing people to drop everything and serve their term, none of the benefits of training reserve troopers?
Same idea behind it as in Germany most likely. Promoting the 'citizen in uniform', giving everybody a sense of public duty, fresh eyes in the military. It doesn't really exist to train soldiers, just to keep the military public instead of creating some kind of professional mercenary army
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On April 24 2017 07:25 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 07:22 JackONeill wrote:
French people litterally voted for the "anti-system" guy who worked as an investment banker and is supported by the MEDEF (main businessmen association) and who's behind the desastrous economic laws under Hollande.
Hollande dropped to 4-10% approval rate.
Macron is known to be Hollande's sucessor and the craftsman of the main reforms under Hollande.
Macron gets 25% in the first round.
It's amazing what you can do with the support of the main medias.
I don't know about Macron or if he's good or bad. However, I can see it in my country that certain oligarchs own media and use it for political purposes. It's pretty sad.
French medias are almost entirely owned by oligarchs.
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cartes/ppa
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Hey don't complain, at least it's owned by your oligarchs, not foreign ones. + Show Spoiler +I'm joking, using media like this should be unacceptable regardless of who controls them
Our goverment plans to copy French regulations because they think we have a have problem with foreign influence on our media.
The plan to change private media ownership rules follows last year’s purge of hundreds of Polish journalists from public outlets after Law & Justice put state-held broadcasters under direct government control and named one of its former lawmakers to run public television. The party wants to impose caps on newspapers and television providers similar to those in France, which has the most stringent anti-concentration rules in the EU, according to consultancy Wagner Hatfield.
“Several capital groups own a majority of Polish media,” Kaczynski said in Rzeszow, Poland on Monday. “That needs to change, with the introduction of similar legislation as in France.”
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Oligarchs aren't loyal to any country. Their loyalty is only to their fortune, wherever they can store it and live off it. Even though that was a joke, there's not much difference between "your" oligarchs and those of foreign nations.
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Some oligarchs are pretty chauvinistic, they're actually fairly good at removing themselves from power by backing zealous nationalists in exchange for petty favours and then end up in prison a while later. Russia is a pretty good example of this. There's a lot of capital both behind national and international interests, it's not really clear that the oligarchy always ignores borders.
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On April 24 2017 05:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 05:20 stilt wrote:On April 24 2017 04:58 Big J wrote:
If one could take the far-right populists seriously, I could find myself supporting them on many topics. Point is, they are not serious on those topics, never have been and never will be. Like Sanders said about Trump, if he is serious about his promises, he has his full support. Turns out that he didn't want to create a better Obamacare, he went full interventionism abroad, he wants to give the rich massive tax cuts and many more things... Well, in a global history scale, it seems clear that the nation state is bound to disappear or at leats, in difficulty. However, since the 16 century, it's like the only decent social pact that we've done, the only who has the legitimity to subject the will of an individu to the will of a multitude, in short, the only way to acquiere a better social justice. Because once again, I fail to see how the reasonnable ppl of TL are on the good side of history, basically, their clothes, phones ect are fabricated by exploited workers whose the exploitation took the jobs of their fellow countrymen and apparantly, it's not even worth to question this. I am not totally against free market or the capitalist system (wanting always more is in human nature afterall but it should be moderated by society). However, tt is quite obvious that Lepen is a millionaire fascist but her ideas countain still at least a symbolic preservation of the nation state while Macron is a direct emissary from the lobbyist who're against. For the rest, they are equal shits, Macron is a liberal who will destroy the labour legislation and imposes austerity with his friend. He has a pretty communautarist approach, dividing the "pecquenauds' with religious bullshits. While Lepen makes everyone phantasme on the migrant and will always be liberal in economic term like any far right political leader. The nation-state is the only thing that is internationally accepted and won't be invaded by global elites. If you try any construct of organization other than the nation-state and declare independence from the state you are living in (which you have to do since there is no "free-land" anywhere), they will use whatever force they can muster to destroy you. If you find a cultural-national motive, you may have a chance. If you look at the map of the world or in particular Europe over the last 100-years, you can see how the nation state has been the route to freedom for many people. It's not that all those tiny states needed to self-organize, but if your choice is Russia or independence, well guess what you are going to take. Long story short, I don't see the nation-state going away anytime soon. The only challenge I could see is global enterprises becoming so powerful that they and some of their employers may reach a certain amount of independece.
It has just become a tool for repression, historically it has always been a very strong aspect but nowadays, it is more like a rotting corpse because of fiscal evasion, economy derugaltion and the absurd power of some group which leads to more and more privatisation. Moreover, it lost his sovereignity with international and lobbyistic instution like NATO, ONU, UE, ONG and even more problematic: WTO, IMF, WB ect) and the indivualism seems to be the coup de grace, like Thatchter said, "there is no society, only individual", that sums up this epoq, if you look at France, it never looked so divided since 1940,
Finally, we can imagine in a near future that the extension of capitalism will do a privatisation of service like police and army. (the like of pinkerton or black waters are growing nowadays) and with the great inquality and misery which occurs, etnic and religious wars should not be very hard to provoke.
Despite all of this, I still think this is worth it to do the best in order to preserve this kind of social pact, this is because of the social pact that around 100y ago, my great great great parents learn to read in public school, get a better weatlh and begins the long road toward emancipation, milions of ppl have directly benefited from this and it seems to end or being "replaced" (sighlty) by charity, it's disgusting.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
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France12886 Posts
Why would she gain in Paris?
Most people in Paris are educated and stuff.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 24 2017 10:06 Poopi wrote:Why would she gain in Paris? Most people in Paris are educated and stuff.
That's precisely why gaining there would make the most sense.
+ Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, it's pretty obvious that Paris would be most against Le Pen. But it's notable that she gained everywhere else.
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TheDwf's cynicism is a symptom of the real problem the French have. The most absolutely darkest, most fucking depressing outlook on life one could ever have.
"Working sucks, as little as possible"
"ew the rich"
"ew money"
"ew old people, good thing they're dead in 15 years!!1"
"all of my problems are because of someone else, not me"
"ew educated people"
"minimum wage people are the only ones who matter"
"i can't believe u have more than €10/month than me, whose dick did u suck for that"
"entrepreneurs? DISGUSTING"
"USA? fucking gun-nut, hamburger munching apes, we're x1337 MORE BETTER than THEY ARE"
"banks? you mean robbers"
"ew catholics!!"
So fucking edgy. Holy shit.
People in the USA are x10 more upbeat and positive than anything I've seen in France. Not like the USA is without problems or anything but working and living here is just a breath of fresh fucking air.
I hope Macron pulls through and the disgusting Le Pig doesn't get elected. Hopefully Macro can take a little leaf out of the USA's book and get some optimism back into France.
Please, for the love of god. Macron is too left for me, probably an Hollande-bis. But he's not stupid like Le Pen on the most basic issues. I'm sure TheDwf would love to see a communist in power. My bets are that he's going to vote for her.
Edit: if you abstain you're a piece of shit who basically helps marine. in other words for your shitty, petty pride you're OK with throwing the country down the drain because you didn't get your capricious way. can't believe people who would let hate, xenophobia, euro-skepticism and fascism come to power over what is essentially capricious whining that they didn't get their way
people like that piss me off, probably more than those who actually vote le pen. "i won't be barrage to FN" my god they're tap-dancing in joy hearing shit like that.
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My Facebook blew up after tonight. Living in Japan, I had to find out about the results in the morning, and yeah; not too happy about it. I wanted to vote for Hamon, but alas the paperwork for my vote by proxy fell through somehow. Never reached the townhall where my father was supposed to vote for me. Oh well.
I find Mélenchon's reaction to be extremely distasteful. The behavior he showed, the contempt and disdain for those who don't share in his values, is one of the reasons why I didn't want to vote for him. The man is too brazen for his own good; or anybody's.
And yeah, as said, my Facebook is basically full of Mélenchon voters who are hating on life and everyone who didn't vote for Mélenchon, calling them sheep and morons and all that. It is beyond me. I understand being passionate and committed about one's political engagements, but have some decency. Different strokes for different people and all that. Demonizing people who don't vote the way you do is exactly how you end up with a fucking Le Pen raking in at 21%.
And again I don't necessarily blame those who vote for her, but it is evident to me that she is just a diluted version of her father. Her program reeks of nationalistic protectionism on a thin layer of racism. I'm not happy with Macron either though, but at this point it does look like he'll be president.
If he is elected, his term will be a turning point. If he fails and becomes a Hollande 2.0, a Le Pen presidency is inevitable in 2022. Marine is only 48 years old; she's got a good two or three more runs in her. Time will tell.
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^Unless some people in her party manage to get her head. I mean, with her line, the FN is clearly hitting a glass ceiling.
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On April 24 2017 15:33 OtherWorld wrote:
^Unless some people in her party manage to get her head. I mean, with her line, the FN is clearly hitting a glass ceiling.
In my opinion, the only reason the FN is where it is at the moment is because of her, and more precisely because her last name is Le Pen. Remove Le Pen from the FN and it likely becomes a fringe party once more, or starts to dwindle in popularity.
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EPT
