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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On April 25 2017 01:01 Makro wrote: hollande just stated that all of the republican and everyone should vote against the FN too bad he doesn't realize he's doing wonder for them by doing that :> Do you think Le Pen is gonna win? | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On April 25 2017 01:01 Makro wrote: hollande just stated that all of the republican and everyone should vote against the FN too bad he doesn't realize he's doing wonder for them by doing that :> No? This strategy is still a winning one because of public shaming, the fact that he isn't popular won't have a counter effect | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
Can someone explain what made someone go for Hamon rather than Melenchon? Is Hamon a lot more stubborn and unreasonable in his environmentalism? Kind of like the green party in the US wanting to ban anything with pesticides? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18132 Posts
On April 25 2017 01:29 Mohdoo wrote: As someone trying to be better versed in French politics: Can someone explain what made someone go for Hamon rather than Melenchon? Is Hamon a lot more stubborn and unreasonable in his environmentalism? Kind of like the green party in the US wanting to ban anything with pesticides? It was explained quite well a few pages back, but basically, Melenchon is about the closest you can get to a Trotskyist in modern French politics, whereas Hamon is a social democrat. So if you want all the socialist stuff without a socialist government, you'd vote Hamon. Hamon is basically status quo, but slightly more social (he's a slightly more left version of Hollande, although that's what Hollande promised to be, so who knows what would've happened if he were actually to get into power). Melenchon wants to overthrow the established order: renegotiate France's participation in the EU, establish a 6th republic, and other revolutionary baggage that comes from reading Das Kapital, Mao's little red book and other such literature a little too often. Of course, most people doubt Melenchon could ever get support for his more radical ideas, so what you'd actually get if you voted for him is a more serious version of social democracy, but his actual programme is pretty radical. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
not even the slighest chance, but after 5 years of macron ? the score are gonna be higher for sure | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
She's 25 points behind so far, we'll tell you in time when to panic On April 25 2017 01:29 Mohdoo wrote: As someone trying to be better versed in French politics: Can someone explain what made someone go for Hamon rather than Melenchon? Is Hamon a lot more stubborn and unreasonable in his environmentalism? Kind of like the green party in the US wanting to ban anything with pesticides? 1) People who disagree with Mélenchon's political line or strategy, particularly his “populist” traits 2) People who hate Mélenchon for some reason (he leaves very few people indifferent) 3) People who listened to the massive propaganda against him (he was painted as a communist, an extremist, a dictator, a friend of Putin, someone who's complacent with Bachar al-Assad, etc., etc.) 4) People linked with the PS for some reason 5) Eurofederalists 6) Universal base income 7) Foreign policy 8) People who want to vote out of pure conviction, and don't want to make any tactical concession Mélenchon is more radical than Hamon on 95% of themes, including environment. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 25 2017 01:45 LegalLord wrote: In any case, it looks like the Goldman Sachs need not worry; their man on the inside seems rather assured of victory, and they will be able to carry on as normal for another few years. The capital recognizes its Wunderkind | ||
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Poopi
France12906 Posts
On April 25 2017 01:29 Mohdoo wrote: As someone trying to be better versed in French politics: Can someone explain what made someone go for Hamon rather than Melenchon? Is Hamon a lot more stubborn and unreasonable in his environmentalism? Kind of like the green party in the US wanting to ban anything with pesticides? Hamon is the same but more moderate / less sore loser angry little dude. Basically they were at around the same percents but Mélenchon had a better dynamic in the last few weeks and a lot of confused sheep went for him in order to qualify. This strategy failed, hard to know if the other strategy would have worked. | ||
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stilt
France2754 Posts
On April 25 2017 01:38 Acrofales wrote: It was explained quite well a few pages back, but basically, Melenchon is about the closest you can get to a Trotskyist in modern French politics, whereas Hamon is a social democrat. So if you want all the socialist stuff without a socialist government, you'd vote Hamon. Hamon is basically status quo, but slightly more social (he's a slightly more left version of Hollande, although that's what Hollande promised to be, so who knows what would've happened if he were actually to get into power). Melenchon wants to overthrow the established order: renegotiate France's participation in the EU, establish a 6th republic, and other revolutionary baggage that comes from reading Das Kapital, Mao's little red book and other such literature a little too often. Of course, most people doubt Melenchon could ever get support for his more radical ideas, so what you'd actually get if you voted for him is a more serious version of social democracy, but his actual programme is pretty radical. Le front de gauche is an association of different left trends, There is the french communist party, le parti de gauche (Meluche's one) and some others but Melenchon orientation is definetely jacobinist with a clear anti clerical stance and hugolian ton. His main inspirations are the french revolution convention during les montagnards and the commune of paris, two events you know nothing about I am pretty sure. The fact that you directly associated this to Karl Marx reveals the very little understanding you have of french politics. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
Are we gonna blame far lefties and Mélenchon if Le Pen wins? Got some news for you from TR politics. + Show Spoiler + https://twitter.com/06JAnk/status/856518904830717952 ( They were Nay sayer because Erdo isn't islamist enough.) TR stock market on a rise. And I got few things to say about referendum, happy to see most of the US-TR citizens voted for NO, it's not that we don't support the presidential system, but it was a stupid thing to do during state of emergency while NO campaigners had no chance, or even YES campaigners had little time to tell us what's gonna change and what's not. Very very wrong times to go for such overhaul. But I'm reading some bitter articles from EU liberals that blame Turks for failing to integrate in their societies because they voted for YES more than the Turks in Turkey, that's pure populism. There was an interview with female Dutch Turk who decided to vote YES after she saw how police let their dogs to bite Turkish protesters. One can be very well integrated and still vote for Erdogan, even western citizens vote for their own populists, do you think they aren't well integrated in their own society? After all it was just a couple years ago the same Turkish government was welcomed in Netherlands with the most polite ways ever, even F-16's escorting the Turkish plane by the same liberal government while the West was completely embracing Erdogan and his policies, urging the Turks to vote for him. Nothing is changed in his rhetoric, he's just mad at EU right now, that's it. He was always a totalitarian and he was openly saying he wishes to switch presidential system since the first days of his rule. Do you really expect us to believe when liberals say "Erdogan fooled us, we didn't know he was that bad!" People only think the West is against him because he's no longer controllable, therefore they're free. I personally don't think the West, as a whole, trying to control and maintain dominance on Turkey, but few countries, like Germany, is surely trying (and there's nothing wrong with it). However, since liberal values have become media materials that countries use to excel against each other, people do not believe their sincerity when these are defended by politicians. By the way, let me introduce you the CHP, once a true fascist, now the self claiming social democrat, in reality our right winger populist secular nationalist party, the Turkish main opposition. I felt needed to write this after the last dispute I had with that Turkish nay voter here before I got banned. Those people are worse than Erdogan himself. Anti Nato, anti EU, anti human rights, anti kurdish, anti muslim but cleverly playing the victim role for years because they know the West will approach the Turkish opposition softly after Erdogan's hostile attitudes. I'm not going to lecture you about its bloody past of assassinating, assimilating, displacing everyone but Kemalists, but I will rather summarize their major appearances in last 10 or more years. After 2002, when Akp faced closure trials with fabricated evidences after its dominating win in elections, CHP kept its silent and its members praised the court. The following years their only remarkable act was their ANTI-PEACE PROCESS stance in Turkish - PKK ceasefire. They claimed it was an imperial board game to create Kurdistan. And then they got rid of their chairman by leaking his sex tape. Whole party was content. The following and the current chairman decided to fill in his boys, he was an Alewite with Kurdish origin, secular Kemalist Turks decided to leave the party and create their own, because new chairman was a total failure, he lost every elections, and even failed to VOTE NAY in previous referendum on the constitution change he campaigned for NO, lol. Many time he said he'll quit the party if he fails in the elections, he didn't. Later on they saw peace process can not be stopped, party started to adopt it but still claimed it was an imperial plan. They kept requesting publicity from both sides, which was a stupid thing to do. There comes the first presidential elections that gave Erdogan hopes for presidential system. Erdogan, Kurdish leader HDP Demirtas, and MHP/CHP nominee paced for it. MHP/CHP nominee, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu was an egyptian islamist exile who couldn't even tell which poem is our national anthem or a gallipoli poem. His grandfather was exiled to Egypt by Kemalist regime due to his islamist activites in freshly founded republic. Ekmeleddin Mehmet İhsanoğlu is a Turkish academic, politician and diplomat who was Secretary-General of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) from 2004 to 2014. Of course, he failed against Erdogan and erased from Turkish politics. Syrian civil war began, first thing CHP did was sending a group to Syria, photos of them handshaking with Assad have been shared proudly, claiming they're against the imperial plans of the US and in solidarity with Assad. Turkish - PKK peace process failed, HDP openly invited kurdish public to join civil war against TR, HDP members one by one sent to jail thanks to CHP and MHPS yes vote for lifting legislative immunity of mps. But they still blamed the government for failing peace process, letting Pkk grow stronger. Millions of Syrian people started fleeing to Turkey, CHP was in favor of border closure lmao. (Whole world went crazy when TR closed borders when Kobane was sieged) Nowadays they are anti-refugee, famous with their one/two liners of their chairman, "Syrian refugees are shopping in AVMs with Turkish girls while our sons are dying in Syria for them, we're against this order!" Suggesting Syrian refugees in Tr are young enough to fight, therefore TR should (somehow?) send them to Syria and make them fight. (or die) The irony is they gave YES to mandate for military action inside Syria against ISIS and PKK. Why don't you give NO if you're gonna bitch about it later on. They are in favor of death penalty as well, which will totally halt EU talks but they are somehow pro-eu, sometimes? This death penalty is in our dairies because AKP wants to execute coup plotters and Pkk members, so basically CHP agrees their execution. They were also in favor of sanctions against the Netherlands. Their voters are somehow in support everything they've done and still think they're the best for Turkey, they're the real deal. While they only get 27% of turkish votes, half of it comes from western Tr, the people who vote for them because its Ataturk's party and they're seculars, the other half votes for them because there's 10% electoral threshold. My family votes for them because there aren't a liberal party and they stick to opposition just to make sure there's an opposition alive, nothing else. Here are some other things I find interesting to share: + Show Spoiler + https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/854019326717952001 | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
In Austria, if you take the Austrian citizenship you usually have to return your former one. There were tons of Turkish-born migrants that were allowed to vote because they can illegally reclaim their Turkish citizenship. One more straw why the referendum should be nullified, given that Austrians were voting on Turkish matters. | ||
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stilt
France2754 Posts
On April 25 2017 02:31 Big J wrote: Oh btw about the Turkish referendum: In Austria, if you take the Austrian citizenship you usually have to return your former one. There were tons of Turkish-born migrants that were allowed to vote because they can illegally reclaim their Turkish citizenship. One more straw why the referendum should be nullified, given that Austrians were voting on Turkish matters. There is no double nationality available? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18132 Posts
On April 25 2017 02:31 Big J wrote: Oh btw about the Turkish referendum: In Austria, if you take the Austrian citizenship you usually have to return your former one. There were tons of Turkish-born migrants that were allowed to vote because they can illegally reclaim their Turkish citizenship. One more straw why the referendum should be nullified, given that Austrians were voting on Turkish matters. That's the problem with dual nationalities. You can "force" people to give them up, but as long as the country allows anybody who has "given up" their nationality to get it back no strings attached, it's just a bullshit measure with no practical meaning. You calling these Austrian Turks "Austrians" who illegally voted in the Turkish referendum is just your view of the matter. Turks see it as "Turks" voting legally, despite Austria doing everything it can to suppress these Turkish votes. That said, I find it ridiculous that 2nd, 3rd, etc. generations of Turks/Moroccans are automatically Turkish/Moroccan nationals who have a hard time even getting rid of their nationality if they want to. This would be a great task for the EU to exert more pressure on these countries to accept that these families have emigrated and they are no longer Turkish/Moroccan, but French/German/Spanish/Dutch/Austrian. The dual nationality thing is symbol politics, but in this case I think the symbol is actually important. It's hard to "feel" Dutch if Morocco is constantly whispering in your ear that while you live in the Netherlands you will always be Moroccan (while on the other hand, Wilders is yelling the same thing). | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
You can morally disagree with the idea of exercising your right to vote if you don't live in the country you vote in, but I don't think we need to turn this into a law just yet. This is an especially bad use of symbol politics, which is already way too dominant. We won't solve our integration problems simply by stripping someone of their citizenship. They're not just voting Erdogan because they formally hold the passport, they do so because there are real failures in our society that those people experience. | ||
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pmh
1366 Posts
Would le pen have a chance? I don't know but I think the chance for an upset (le pen win) is smaller then with brexit and the usa elections. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
There are some exceptions. Like if you are born in America but claim the Austrian one for heritage, or if you are rich and famous enough that politicians gernously give you one, it should work. On April 25 2017 02:48 Acrofales wrote: That's the problem with dual nationalities. You can "force" people to give them up, but as long as the country allows anybody who has "given up" their nationality to get it back no strings attached, it's just a bullshit measure with no practical meaning. You calling these Austrian Turks "Austrians" who illegally voted in the Turkish referendum is just your view of the matter. Turks see it as "Turks" voting legally, despite Austria doing everything it can to suppress these Turkish votes. True, but there are also cases of Austrian-only citizens eligible to vote and voting. On April 25 2017 02:51 Nyxisto wrote: The problem is obviously that some people make good and legitimate use of dual nationalities. If you spend time or even work in two countries, have family in two countries then there's no good reason to deny you the opportunity to vote in both countries and hold both citizenships. I'm not really sure if we should take the Erdogan vote as an opportunity to ruin it for those people. You can morally disagree with the idea of exercising your right to vote if you don't live in the country you vote in, but I don't think we need to turn this into a law just yet. This is an especially bad use of symbol politics, which is already way too dominant. We won't solve our integration problems simply by stripping someone of their citizenship. They're not just voting Erdogan because they formally hold the passport, they do so because there are real failures in our society that those people experience. I'm not advocating for the way the Austrian law is. But it is the law. | ||
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stilt
France2754 Posts
... Those two weeks will be very difficults. I am not gonna vote Lepen but it's quite tough to call a political system with this degree of instrumentalisation a democracy. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On April 25 2017 02:56 pmh wrote: vive la france. Would le pen have a chance? I don't know but I think the chance for an upset (le pen win) is smaller then with brexit and the usa elections. Not really, Goldman Sachs boy basically has it in the bag. | ||
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