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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 25 2017 03:14 stilt wrote:
It's already 10 minutes that the France 2 is only about Macron and there are quite audicious : audacious, trustworthy, talent, transgressif, they ask a dude why he voted Macron, the guy has quite trouble to answer, the journalist responded: "he dynamates the system?", the response is "eeeuh yes, I was against the PS and LR". And everyone is jubilating on the tv set.
... Those two weeks will be very difficults.
I am not gonna vote Lepen but it's quite tough to call a political system with this degree of instrumentalisation a democracy.
Yeah, the propaganda machine is running again at once, it's insane. The guy wanted to kick the PS and LR? Too bad he just voted for a living PS-LR coalition then. Geez...
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On April 25 2017 02:26 lastpuritan wrote:
And I got few things to say about referendum, happy to see most of the US-TR citizens voted for NO, it's not that we don't support the presidential system, but it was a stupid thing to do during state of emergency while NO campaigners had no chance, or even YES campaigners had little time to tell us what's gonna change and what's not. Very very wrong times to go for such overhaul.
Really, after that speech of yours? Somehow I doubt your sincerity on that one.
On April 25 2017 02:26 lastpuritan wrote:
But I'm reading some bitter articles from EU liberals that blame Turks for failing to integrate in their societies because they voted for YES more than the Turks in Turkey, that's pure populism. There was an interview with female Dutch Turk who decided to vote YES after she saw how police let their dogs to bite Turkish protesters. One can be very well integrated and still vote for Erdogan, even western citizens vote for their own populists, do you think they aren't well integrated in their own society? After all it was just a couple years ago the same Turkish government was welcomed in Netherlands with the most polite ways ever, even F-16's escorting the Turkish plane by the same liberal government while the West was completely embracing Erdogan and his policies, urging the Turks to vote for him. Nothing is changed in his rhetoric, he's just mad at EU right now, that's it. He was always a totalitarian and he was openly saying he wishes to switch presidential system since the first days of his rule. Do you really expect us to believe when liberals say "Erdogan fooled us, we didn't know he was that bad!" People only think the West is against him because he's no longer controllable, therefore they're free.
I personally don't think the West, as a whole, trying to control and maintain dominance on Turkey, but few countries, like Germany, is surely trying (and there's nothing wrong with it). However, since liberal values have become media materials that countries use to excel against each other, people do not believe their sincerity when these are defended by politicians.
It is not pure populism. Those who voted YES clearly do not understand, that a democracy nowadays means more than "I voted, it must be democracy!" There needs to be checks and balances, which are not there now. There needs to be rights for minorities. Erdogan broke so many laws, even laws the AKP made itself.
The elections were not fair to begin with. Everyone against Erdogan and his yes was branded a terrorist, a gulenist or at least a sympathizer. They got jailed. This is not a fair referendum if one side gets state support and the other side oppression on so many levels. What about all those yes-votes that got approved, which shouldn´t be legal but the election commitee just happen to legalize just right before the referendum? Those 2,5 mio without the necessary stamp on them? It is way too fishy to call that referendum a clear win for Erdogan or a fair one to begin with.
So no, I don´t think it is populist to call that out. It is necessary to understand why it was voted like that.
I wonder why Erdogan got much approval (from those people in Germany, who actually voted). Could be something emotional. I do not know. There have been many strange justifications for this: a) Turkey is not ready for democracy, that´s why we need a strong leader b) because Turks or Germans with a turkish background get discriminated c) Erdogan is Allahs chosen or d) Erdogan only gets the same rights as the american president (wrong).
So you wanna know why in Germany so many people don´t like the outcome? Because those yes voters actually crippled the turkish democracy while at the same time living in one, where they can voice their opinions without having to fear that the get jailed (try that in Turkey with the "wrong" opinion). At the same time there have been reports of no-voters getting bullied by yes-voters. What the heck? In Germany, we have the feeling, that the YES-voters don´t understand what democracy means. Most of them lived their whole lives in a democracy, being in 5th generation, and still have no clue. They have education in school (geez, they should even know the detailed sequence to establish a dictatorship like it happened in Germany), they have the same rights to found a party, contribute in already existing parties yadda yadda.
It was never easier to oppose a totalitarian regime and yet, they did not stand up to protect it. That´s just sad. And I´m not alone with that oppinion.
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Free range chickens voting for battery farming.
Seriously the votes in germany/austria and others are just a sign of "no clue but turkey strong, motherland, erdogan!"...
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On April 25 2017 03:14 stilt wrote:
It's already 10 minutes that the France 2 is only about Macron and there are quite audicious : audacious, trustworthy, talent, transgressif, they ask a dude why he voted Macron, the guy has quite trouble to answer, the journalist responded: "he dynamates the system?", the response is "eeeuh yes, I was against the PS and LR". And everyone is jubilating on the tv set.
... Those two weeks will be very difficults.
I am not gonna vote Lepen but it's quite tough to call a political system with this degree of instrumentalisation a democracy.
yea but macron is young and dynamic, so there is that
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France12886 Posts
On April 25 2017 04:12 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2017 03:14 stilt wrote:
It's already 10 minutes that the France 2 is only about Macron and there are quite audicious : audacious, trustworthy, talent, transgressif, they ask a dude why he voted Macron, the guy has quite trouble to answer, the journalist responded: "he dynamates the system?", the response is "eeeuh yes, I was against the PS and LR". And everyone is jubilating on the tv set.
... Those two weeks will be very difficults.
I am not gonna vote Lepen but it's quite tough to call a political system with this degree of instrumentalisation a democracy. yea but macron is young and dynamic, so there is that
Still better than his opponent
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BBC and CNBC reporting that Le Pen is stepping down from running the FN to "unite all French people."
Candidacy still stands.
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On April 25 2017 04:32 Danglars wrote:
BBC and CNBC reporting that Le Pen is stepping down from running the FN to "unite all French people."
Candidacy still stands.
Laughable storytelling, she really thinks we're imbeciles? Then again the French people just got tricked into reelecting Hollande, so why not...
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On April 25 2017 04:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2017 04:32 Danglars wrote:
BBC and CNBC reporting that Le Pen is stepping down from running the FN to "unite all French people."
Candidacy still stands. Laughable storytelling, she really thinks we're imbeciles? Then again the French people just got tricked into reelecting Hollande, so why not...
She probably does... who votes for Le Pen? She's probably surprised as well. :D
Edit: Is Le Pen actually 48 years old? She looks like a fucking grandmother. E.g. 60 or so years old.
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On April 25 2017 04:32 Danglars wrote:
BBC and CNBC reporting that Le Pen is stepping down from running the FN to "unite all French people."
Candidacy still stands.
I don’t know much about French Politics, but this is some Calvin Ball shit right here. Uniting people involves conceding in most political races.
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On April 25 2017 04:51 Makro wrote:
i don't get this move
Gaullist mythology, appearing above the parties... Was already part of her campaign, the FN logo was nowhere to be found
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I thought it's customary everywhere for presidents to leave their party during presidency. Obviously it's just an empty gesture but our presidents are obliged to do this. The only weird thing in this case is Le Pen stepping down before getting elected.
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"So, this evening, I am no longer the president of the National Front. I am the candidate for the French presidency," she said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39696861
I find that pretty respectless towards her voters. One may come to the conclusion those people are not the brightest stars in the sky voting for her, but openly assuming you need to remind them what yesterday's election was about is kind of rude.
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France12886 Posts
On April 25 2017 05:50 Big J wrote:"So, this evening, I am no longer the president of the National Front. I am the candidate for the French presidency," she said. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39696861I find that pretty respectless towards her voters. One may come to the conclusion those people are not the brightest stars in the sky voting for her, but openly assuming you need to remind them what yesterday's election was about is kind of rude.
It's not for her voters but for those that lost in the first round.
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Smart move from le pen I think,it should increase her chances. Fn votes will still see her as representing the ideas of the fn. Non fn voters might see her as an option now as she does not officially represent the fn anymore.
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Clever move. If I was French I would be more likely to support her now.
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On April 25 2017 06:08 pmh wrote:
Smart move from le pen I think,it should increase her chances. Fn votes will still see her as representing the ideas of the fn. Non fn voters might see her as an option now as she does not officially represent the fn anymore.
Does it still not say her party name on ballot?
On April 25 2017 06:11 bardtown wrote:
Clever move. If I was French I would be more likely to support her now.
No surprise. You dislike the EU just like her.
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On April 25 2017 06:11 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2017 06:08 pmh wrote:
Smart move from le pen I think,it should increase her chances. Fn votes will still see her as representing the ideas of the fn. Non fn voters might see her as an option now as she does not officially represent the fn anymore. Does it still not say her party name on ballot?
Yup, she had only her forename on the posters. The last name is mandatory on ballots.
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On April 25 2017 06:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2017 06:11 Shield wrote:On April 25 2017 06:08 pmh wrote:
Smart move from le pen I think,it should increase her chances. Fn votes will still see her as representing the ideas of the fn. Non fn voters might see her as an option now as she does not officially represent the fn anymore. Does it still not say her party name on ballot? Yup, she had only her forename on the posters. The last name is mandatory on ballots.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same stuff. Isn't it written like this on ballot?
National Front - Marine Le Pen
Is party name mentioned? If so, it doesn't matter if she's "no longer" leader of her party.
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On April 25 2017 06:14 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2017 06:12 TheDwf wrote:On April 25 2017 06:11 Shield wrote:On April 25 2017 06:08 pmh wrote:
Smart move from le pen I think,it should increase her chances. Fn votes will still see her as representing the ideas of the fn. Non fn voters might see her as an option now as she does not officially represent the fn anymore. Does it still not say her party name on ballot? Yup, she had only her forename on the posters. The last name is mandatory on ballots. I'm not sure we're talking about the same stuff. Isn't it written like this on ballot? National Front - Marine Le Pen Is party name mentioned? If so, it doesn't matter if she's "no longer" leader of her party.
Only “Marine Le Pen” on the ballot. There's no party name.
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EPT
