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On July 20 2018 06:41 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:37 Big J wrote:On July 20 2018 02:44 Acrofales wrote:On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed. So... is Özil really German? + Show Spoiler [context] + Does he have a German passport? Then it is settled. Kindergarten logic... I didn't expect anything less from social democrats at TL. Is Edward Snowden Russian then? Or, to take a step back, is he no longer American because his passport got revoked?
What are you saying? Passport == Identity.
Which is really weird, because people always advocate for multiculturalism, but then it turns out everyone is German ...
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Nationality is not the same as culture.
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On July 20 2018 07:09 Gorsameth wrote:
Nationality is not the same as culture.
So a nation is not defined by a culture?
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On July 20 2018 01:39 sc-darkness wrote:
Well, what's the difference between the French team and an African team visually? They kind of have a point. It doesn't have to be racist. What you point out isn't racism, it's a problem with immigration policy. Immigration happens too quickly for people to adapt. It takes time to accept that nation's culture and identity change. It's a relatively slow process. It's sort of like mini-evolution.
I'm sure you will want to argue and say "no", but this requires a different mindset. You need to see more than your own viewpoint.
I'm genuinely interested how does your viewpoint explain why African teams are not as good as France?
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Having a german passport means that the nation of germany recognizes you as german. There is no such thing as a "real" german. If you are legally german, you are german.
Anything else is silly and usually an attempt to turn people into the other. Being german in that case is based on some nebulous concept which mostly means that you can simply claim that anyone you don't like is not "really" german. Usually, what people mean when they argue like that is that only white people can be "real" germans.
Meanwhile, we have a perfectly valid and objective criterium to decide if someone is german. It is based on the laws that we as germans have set for ourselves. And that is legally having obtained the german nationality.
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Gotta love the anarchists around who believe their definition of state membership is above the actual one of the state.
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On July 20 2018 07:24 Big J wrote:
Gotta love the anarchists around who believe their definition of state membership is above the actual one of the state.
Hahaha
One could think that conservatism was bad enough; but lo and behold! Then came anarcho-conservatism.
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On July 20 2018 07:09 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 07:09 Gorsameth wrote:
Nationality is not the same as culture. So a nation is not defined by a culture?
Most modern nations are not defined by culture but by statehood, hence the existence of multicultural nations, or the reverse a single culture spread across multiple nations. Like German communities in Austria or Switzerland or Russian communities in the Baltics.
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Most nations are also the joining of several cultures.
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On July 20 2018 04:06 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:37 Big J wrote:On July 20 2018 02:44 Acrofales wrote:On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed. So... is Özil really German? + Show Spoiler [context] + Does he have a German passport? Then it is settled. Clearly it isn't. The question was never whether the French players own a French passport. I own a South African passport, but don't self-identity as South African. The question was whether they are French. And just as Toadesstern, I see no reason to doubt that. I also agree with Toadesstern that I won't be making an argument based on Özils publicity stunt that he isn't German, but I can at least see an argument for it. If a coach kicks a player out of the national team because he is posing proudly as a citizen of a different nation, I wouldn't be upset. If a coach kicks a player out because he has the wrong skin color, however... Also, the argument about nationality is quite jaded. I don't think Ziyech chose to play for Morocco over the Netherlands because he feels more Moroccan than Dutch. Nor do I think Diego Costa chose Spain because he feels more Spanish than Brazilian. Nationalist emotions almost certainly took a back seat to considerations of what team they'd have the most impact with.
It is quite common for people here that are proud on their mixed background.
That have (e.g) Turkish heritage and have lived their whole life in Germany apart from the summer visits 'back home'.
Although home in that sense is rather seen as heritage than a place where they actually want to be.
Due to parents and other family being from Turkey, there is a tangible connection to the country that is not easily torn and doesn't need to be, from my perspective.
They feel as much as Germans as they feel Turkish and as young people do, they take part in defining what is German due to their influence on other kids around the block as well as holding the German passport and simply living here, adding to the culture of this country.
In that sense, they are German as what is German is changing. Kebap is part of German culture as much as football and complaining about everything, about reliability, punctuality and all that jazz. But it incorporates, it integrates influences from those who live here. Might they be of German heritage from before the wall fell or not.
People might have some difficulties adapting to that reality and cling to supposedly better times. Taking a look at bigger countries like the USA or Brazil though, it becomes clear that a nation is not defined by one type of person but by a plurality. This becomes more obvious the bigger the differences 'appear', but even bio-Germans are rather different in their mindset (due to whatever reason I won't go into detail about) as I've experienced over the years and places I've lived as well due to family in different states here.
To me trying to look into the past is not a way to determine how people from a country look like / are supposed to be and act, but rather how the country came to be what it is and which factors influence and shape the society one lives in. You look at the youth of today and not at the almost dead to determine where a country is going.
Evaluate the direction however you like.
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Well it's nice of you to assume how they feel. Given that I grew up with mostly immigrants, personal experience says it's not true though. Especially Muslim immigrants use German as an insult and when one of them behaves too "German" the group ostracized them. You underestimate how much people cling to their perceived heritage in other countries. Özil seems to be very much a product of such an environment and is definitely not German no matter what his passport says.
The whole thing is causes by people like you just accepting everything and not forcing people to become one with the host nation they live in. For a harmonious society you cannot allow people to segregate themselves.
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On July 20 2018 16:41 Yuljan wrote:
Well it's nice of you to assume how they feel. Given that I grew up with mostly immigrants, personal experience says it's not true though. Especially Muslim immigrants use German as an insult and when one of them behaves too "German" the group ostracized them. You underestimate how much people cling to their perceived heritage in other countries. Özil seems to be very much a product of such an environment and is definitely not German no matter what his passport says.
The whole thing is causes by people like you just accepting everything and not forcing people to become one with the host nation they live in. For a harmonious society you cannot allow people to segregate themselves.
I don't give a fuck about my 'host nation'. I accept the democratic state as a necessary evil. That is as far as I am willing to go. I am not gonna march to my death for some right-wing esoteric concept like a nation or whatever people like you want me to do. If you want something from me then pay me, I am actually rather cheap.
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On July 20 2018 06:41 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:37 Big J wrote:On July 20 2018 02:44 Acrofales wrote:On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed. So... is Özil really German? + Show Spoiler [context] + Does he have a German passport? Then it is settled. Kindergarten logic... I didn't expect anything less from social democrats at TL. Is Edward Snowden Russian then? Or, to take a step back, is he no longer American because his passport got revoked?
Says the genius who fails to notice the obvious racism in asking 'what's the visual difference between the French team and an African team', without making the jump to 'oh yeah, there's no visual difference between all the white teams, either'.
I suggest you turn off the drill, back away from the hole you're digging, and think about what you're saying.
The point of national teams is that the players in those teams are from the countries they play for, are trained in those countries, and represent their country's [INSERT SPORT HERE] for those reasons. If you took those players and put them in Africa, they'd be playing French football, not African football. Their style, training methods, field strategy, would all be French. That's the difference, and it's the only difference that should matter at a sporting event.
Coincidentally, those elements of play style and strategy also add up to a visual difference.
On July 20 2018 16:41 Yuljan wrote:
Well it's nice of you to assume how they feel. Given that I grew up with mostly immigrants, personal experience says it's not true though. Especially Muslim immigrants use German as an insult and when one of them behaves too "German" the group ostracized them. You underestimate how much people cling to their perceived heritage in other countries. Özil seems to be very much a product of such an environment and is definitely not German no matter what his passport says.
The whole thing is causes by people like you just accepting everything and not forcing people to become one with the host nation they live in. For a harmonious society you cannot allow people to segregate themselves.
Though the sentiment is on the surface laudable, in reality segregation is unavoidable. It's more extreme in the case of some immigrant populations, but people naturally segregate into smaller and smaller social groupings that define who is and isn't part of said group.
People are naturally tribal; it's actually rare for a person to have a broad enough mentality to truly think of themselves as part of a nation. Most say it, but if you look into their lives you find the same segregations in effect.
For an example, look at modern gamer culture. It's a fairly 'weak' culture, in that it's very accessible, so the 'True' gamers create thicker and thicker borders to define who is 'truly' part of the group and who isn't.
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On July 20 2018 16:41 Yuljan wrote:
Well it's nice of you to assume how they feel. Given that I grew up with mostly immigrants, personal experience says it's not true though. Especially Muslim immigrants use German as an insult and when one of them behaves too "German" the group ostracized them. You underestimate how much people cling to their perceived heritage in other countries. Özil seems to be very much a product of such an environment and is definitely not German no matter what his passport says.
The whole thing is causes by people like you just accepting everything and not forcing people to become one with the host nation they live in. For a harmonious society you cannot allow people to segregate themselves.
thats my personal experience. its ok when ours are different, you know.
and as a sidenote.
I don't agree that German is a toke of a quality person. Especially not after the immigration debate caught fire.
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On July 20 2018 18:00 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 16:41 Yuljan wrote:
Well it's nice of you to assume how they feel. Given that I grew up with mostly immigrants, personal experience says it's not true though. Especially Muslim immigrants use German as an insult and when one of them behaves too "German" the group ostracized them. You underestimate how much people cling to their perceived heritage in other countries. Özil seems to be very much a product of such an environment and is definitely not German no matter what his passport says.
The whole thing is causes by people like you just accepting everything and not forcing people to become one with the host nation they live in. For a harmonious society you cannot allow people to segregate themselves. thats my personal experience. its ok when ours are different, you know.and as a sidenote. I don't agree that German is a toke of a quality person. Especially not after the immigration debate caught fire.
Do you realize that the very essence of his comment was that it is not ok for you to have a different opinion?
For a harmonious society you cannot allow people to segregate themselves.
There is no exception for you and your own opinions in this rule. You are to obey his view of national membership and all the rules that come with it.
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I'll be long gone before it's acceptable again to advocate for national racial purity.
Out of the coutry that is.
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On July 20 2018 16:41 Yuljan wrote:
Özil seems to be very much a product of such an environment and is definitely not German no matter what his passport says.
To someone not familiar with his doings, could you explain what treason he's committed for you to say he's definitely not German? He posed on a photo with Erdogan?
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On July 20 2018 11:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Most nations are also the joining of several cultures.
There are even vastly different "cultures" within the same family!
The whole idea that a Nation is culturally unified is a hoax, as is the idea of elevating a nation's culture onto some pidestal, and that it is threatened by imigration and foreign (especially different looking and believing) influence. Even a unifying cultural element like "language" was in fact invented by the national states to define and unify their population and create distance to other nations.
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On July 20 2018 18:53 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 11:55 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Most nations are also the joining of several cultures. There are even vastly different "cultures" within the same family! The whole idea that a Nation is culturally unified is a hoax, as is the idea of elevating a nation's culture onto some pidestal, and that it is threatened by imigration and foreign (especially different looking and believing) influence. Even a unifying cultural element like "language" was in fact invented by the national states to define and unify their population and create distance to other nations.
It's also the precise reason why fascist ethnostate-based belief systems inevitably lead to mass cullings of the population; there's so much diversity that tons of groups of people fall outside what any one person views to be 'proper' [INSERT NATIONALITY HERE].
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After Macron privatized our football victory to have the privilege to scream a few irrelevant sentences with his horrible high-pitched voice to get images just in time for the TV news + Show Spoiler +, he is rewarded with another gift: a major State scandal.
Macron aide Benalla in French probe for beating protesterFrench prosecutors are investigating a senior presidential aide who attacked protesters in Paris while wearing a police visor. Alexandre Benalla, an assistant to President Emmanuel Macron's chief of staff, was filmed targeting a woman and a man during May Day protests. He was caught on video by a student activist and left the scene once challenged on camera. He was identified from the video by French newspaper Le Monde. On Thursday, it emerged he was accompanied on the day by a reserve policeman and employee of Mr Macron's political party, Vincent Crase. France's Interior Minister Gerard Collomb said he had ordered an investigation by the country's national police inspectorate. "These two people had no legal right to intervene," he said. (...) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44883583
I will try to sum up as clearly and quickly as possible.
1) During the 1/05 demonstrations, some demonstrators and left-wing militants are filming what they think is cop violence. So far business as usual, a cop is beating demonstrators for free while other cops watch and do nothing, yawn. The video is uploaded on the Internet.
2) Turns out that the perpetrator was not a cop. Two days ago (18/07), Le Monde revealed that this guy, named Alexandre Benalla, was in fact Macron's aide.
3) Le Monde revealed that the presidency was aware of his behaviour, and punished him two days after the event (3/05) by suspending him for... only two weeks.
Now, why is this big, why is Macron's name involved and why this will splash badly.
1) Macron's aide (he basically seems to be his Mr. Security) was impersonating a cop and acting like one, whereas he should have just been there “as an observer”. He also had a talkie-walkie.
2) Only yesterday was a judicial inquiry opened, for “violences perpetrated by someone entrusted with a public mission,” “usurpation of functions” and “usurpation of signs reserved for the public authority”.
3) According to Le Monde, Macron was quickly aware of the events after they happened.
4) Benalla seems to be quite close to Macron; not only he was acting as some kind of bodyguard during his travels, but there are also numerous photos of them during Macron's leisure time:
+ Show Spoiler +
All of this means that:
1) The presidency (and the Interior) tried to cover up the affair. As per our article 40 of the Penal code, they must seize the justice when they are confronted with those kinds of facts. They did not, hoping that the case would not be revealed. Bad luck, it seems that some journalists still do their job. This reveals the behavior of an arrogant caste who think they are above the law.
2) To extinguish the fire, the presidency's spokeperson, in an absolutely pathetic and panicked statement yesterday morning, was forced to revealed that a second guy working for l'Élysée had also committed similar violences and had been fired. But this means that there likely was a network of brutes of that kind.
3) Active complicities up to the high ranks of the police prefecture (it wasn't actually the first time that Benalla was here in demonstration with cops). Three high-ranked cops were suspended today for complicity. The passiveness of cops nearby while Benalla was beating up demonstrators also likely means that they had instructions not to intervene because he was some “VIP”.
4) Given that Benalla was in the bus of the victory when our national team returned, i.e. a place of privilege, he was clearly not pushed aside as he should have been. Since Benalla was not fired rightaway for a severe case AND was covered AND was still working for l'Élysée (only today, in the heat of the massive sh*tstorm, are they starting the procedure to fire him!), how valuable he is and what does he know to be protected like that?
My personal guess is that they were running some kind of small parallel police for the presidency, as the right-wing mafiosos did in the 60's with the infamous SAC: gathering thugs to do shady stuff, for instance beating up left-wing activists and demonstrators in order to intimidate them. We will see.
There is a political crisis dawning, all oppositions are blocking the Parliament (the Constitutional reform was being discussed, where King Macron intends to make our already Phantom Parliament even more useless) until the government comes and explains the events. So far they dodge, the majority is heavily embarrassed. The Interior minister possibly lied yesterday in front of the Senate, pretending that he didn't know while he apparently did.
At the request of all oppositions, there will be a parliamentary committed of inquiry which will audition people on those events next week.
In a public visit yesterday, Macron refused to answer the journalists' questions, feigning to not hear them and wearing a fake smile de façade.
In any mature democracy the whole hierarchic chain involved in that case would have resigned. But in the French Banana Republic, nothing of that order is happening yet.
As of today, Benalla is currently held in custory. A fourth count has been added, apparently he was complicit in hijacking surveillance images…
Medias are talking non-stop about this for the last 40+ hours.
Stay tuned for the collapse of the Macronie… :popcorn:
TL;DR: one of Macron's aides, quite close to him, beat up a few persons while impersonating a cop in a demonstration more than 2 months ago. The presidency tried to cover up the case, which is now blowing right under their nose. Possible signs of a secret cell operating as some kind of private militia for Macron.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2018/05/14/18/mesut-ozil-erdogan-130518.jpg?w968h681)
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