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Looks like SoSexy (rip) wasn't the only one who had a problem with the French team.
'African World Cup winner’ goes down badly with FrenchA nation officially blind to race grapples with reality of a multiethnic national football team. PARIS — 'They’re French. Got that?' That was the forceful retort from athletes, journalists and even an ex-U.S. president to people who suggested that France’s World Cup-winning team was more African than French due to the origins of their parents or grandparents. (...) Foreign commentators are dousing the good feelings — by suggesting the win was not quite French. “Africans and Muslims delivered you a second World Cup,” wrote Khaled Beydoun, a law professor in Michigan, in a tweet on July 15 that has been shared over 216,000 times. Daily Show host and TV comedian Trevor Noah chimed in, exclaiming: “Congratulations to Africa on winning the 2018 Men’s World Cup!” “In reality, Africa won,” said Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro. Such suggestions did not go down well in France, hinting as they did that the players’ skin color — denoting African origin — was more important than their nationality. The French state does not officially recognize the concept of race due to a constitution grounded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and its literal view of the idea that all humans are created equal. The first to react were French athletes themselves, saying that they considered themselves, first and foremost, as French citizens. "Stop it with this ‘Africa won the world cup for France’ non sense [sic],” tweeted French basketball star Evan Fournier. “We are all french deal with it,” he added. (...) France’s race-blind policy — at odds with suggestions that players are “African” due to skin color — is frequently at the center of controversies over whether such statistics should be used, for example to enact quotas in the university system. But so far, the French have stuck to their guns, with the French parliament unanimously voting this month to remove the word “race” from the constitution. The term, considered outdated, has been largely dismissed as a social construct at odds with republican ideals of solidarity and brotherhood. In 2013, France’s left-wing parties led a successful effort to scrub the term from French legislation, saying that it has “no scientific basis.” Casually alluding to religion or national origin is typically considered a faux pas in work and school environments. The race-blind school got some foreign backing, from no less than former U.S. President Barack Obama. During a speech in South Africa commemorating Nelson Mandela, he said: “Not all of those folks look like Gauls to me. But they’re French. They’re French." https://www.politico.eu/article/african-world-cup-winner-goes-down-badly-with-french/
They may not look like ethnic Frenchmen but as long as they consider themselves French I don't see how it's justified to say an African team won the cup. I think It's only a problem when players with immigrant background play for national teams purely for career related reasons while considering themselves to be of different nationality. Like Ozil, who (unless I got sth wrong) openly called Erdogan his presdient.
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According to this logic, the USA could never win anything because they killed most of the actual natives and are almost all immigrants or their descendents.
It's all just political theatre
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The surge of racist comments after our win was absolutely pathetic.
For some interesting facts:
+ Show Spoiler +
I liked Mendy's answer, and the one from some French basket ball player, Nicolas Batum. Bored with those controversies, he wrote: "Sorry for the language, but to all people saying “Africa won”: go f*ck yourselves".
About this "Africa won" theme:
1) If it comes from African people themselves, who symbolically want to share a bit of the win and the pride, fine. Maduro's comment was somewhat awkward but it didn't seem malevolent since he mentioned that people with African immigrant background were unfairly despised and victim of racism, etc., and the discriminations against "people coming from the South" should stop.
2) When it comes from racist scum/white supremacists who thinks that "there are too many Blacks in the French team" or that "being Black is at odds with being French," it's obviously disgusting.
The fact that Kylian Mbappé, who was born and raised in a suburb and has two foreign parents (Algerian mother, Cameroonian father), is the most loved player by the public is "funny". Illustrates so much the complete schizophrenia of the French society, depending on whether people of color are "stars" or "randoms".
Two weeks before our win, a young Black was killed by the police in Nantes (a big city), which triggered a few days of unrest at night. And today is the "anniversary" of Adama Traoré's death, a young Black who was killed 2 years ago by cops. Such is the French society.
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I agree with you TheDwf (and yes, I do think most of these comments are racist).
What I find interesting is that I see a lot of people (e.g. among my fb friends) who would never define themselves as racists, and are quite on the left of the spectrum, which share these comments with a laughter.
As long as we talk about football (and especially talking about France in football, which all the competition and antagonism from Italy) going down with low league comments like these is perfectly accepted..
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Well, what's the difference between the French team and an African team visually? They kind of have a point. It doesn't have to be racist. What you point out isn't racism, it's a problem with immigration policy. Immigration happens too quickly for people to adapt. It takes time to accept that nation's culture and identity change. It's a relatively slow process. It's sort of like mini-evolution.
I'm sure you will want to argue and say "no", but this requires a different mindset. You need to see more than your own viewpoint.
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Prioritizing recognition of race in the context of nationality, no matter the pretense, is the very essence of racism. Saying "nu uhh, it's immigration policy" is not a basis for concluding otherwise.
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The presence of things that kind of have a point is what it makes it hard to differentiate between the people doing it because of racism and the ones who aren't. It lets various other cognitive processes use that uncertainty to make the conclusions they want to make.
I'm pretty sure people ARE seeing more than thier own viewpoint btw. and the prior posters already did explicitly note it didn't have to be because of racism.
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On July 20 2018 01:39 sc-darkness wrote:
Well, what's the difference between the French team and an African team visually? They kind of have a point. It doesn't have to be racist. What you point out isn't racism, it's a problem with immigration policy. Immigration happens too quickly for people to adapt. It takes time to accept that nation's culture and identity change. It's a relatively slow process. It's sort of like mini-evolution.
I'm sure you will want to argue and say "no", but this requires a different mindset. You need to see more than your own viewpoint. What is the difference between England and Germany, visually?
Or the Dutch and Croatia, visually?
Should I be claiming this as a Dutch 2nd place? Or an English? a German?
Who the fuck cares what color skin the players have. They are French, competing for France.
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Thinking that there has to be a visual difference between French and African people is racism. This has zero to do with immigration policy, the immigration that lead to having these players in the French team happened quite some time ago (these are second generation immigrants, i.e. French people with parents coming from an other country).
Skin color is *not* a nation's culture or identity!
This has nothing to do with heavy left of right mindset (btw, I'm definitely not heavy left - I almost always voted center, and I am closer to some ideas of the 'historical' right), it has to do with accepting that some line of thoughts are racist by definition. Not everything can be dulled down and redefined so that you can feel you're still politically correct while talking about visual differences between French and African people....
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On July 20 2018 01:39 sc-darkness wrote:
Well, what's the difference between the French team and an African team visually?
4 white people
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I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed.
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On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed.
So... is Özil really German?
+ Show Spoiler [context] +
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I don't know much about french sports but I imagine they have many minorities playing for the same reason that american sports have many minorities playing, because it's one of the main routes out of poverty for them and they have more obstacles for the alternative routes. If that picture is accurate the celebration of the multiculturalism of the french team doesn't really sit well with me in that it's a celebration of the multiculturalism of France through what I would consider one of its failings.
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Who cares?
If you really would want to you could argue that it is about culture over race and thats about it.
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On July 20 2018 02:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed. So... is Özil really German? + Show Spoiler [context] +
I don't care. What I meant with that part is that I could at least somewhat understand an argument like that if that was the case. I'm not going to be the one making it though.
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Trevor Noah offered a little bit more in-depth explanation of what he meant by it. The tl:dr is that the players can be French and African at the same time.
+ Show Spoiler +
BTW Bernardo Silva wasn't born in France I don't think. 
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now a related phenomenon which does bug me a bit; is the tendency of some small rich nations (e.g. some gulf oil nations) to win by importing athletes for the direct purpose of winning. i.e. not just the general immigration that happens with a bit extra for athletes; but more directly paying athletes to come ot their country and renounce former citizenship.
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On July 20 2018 02:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed. So... is Özil really German? + Show Spoiler [context] +
Does he have a German passport?
Then it is settled.
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On July 20 2018 03:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:44 Acrofales wrote:On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed. So... is Özil really German? + Show Spoiler [context] + Does he have a German passport? Then it is settled.
Clearly it isn't. The question was never whether the French players own a French passport. I own a South African passport, but don't self-identity as South African.
The question was whether they are French. And just as Toadesstern, I see no reason to doubt that. I also agree with Toadesstern that I won't be making an argument based on Özils publicity stunt that he isn't German, but I can at least see an argument for it. If a coach kicks a player out of the national team because he is posing proudly as a citizen of a different nation, I wouldn't be upset. If a coach kicks a player out because he has the wrong skin color, however...
Also, the argument about nationality is quite jaded. I don't think Ziyech chose to play for Morocco over the Netherlands because he feels more Moroccan than Dutch. Nor do I think Diego Costa chose Spain because he feels more Spanish than Brazilian. Nationalist emotions almost certainly took a back seat to considerations of what team they'd have the most impact with.
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On July 20 2018 03:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:44 Acrofales wrote:On July 20 2018 02:00 Toadesstern wrote:
I think this was supposed to make africans/muslims look better if those comments are comming from the US. For example the comment from Trevor Noah. Although I have to admit I haven't seen it myself yet that would just be my guess based on the whole "shithole country" thing a couple months (?) ago. And generally to push against some of the white-nationalist agenda and make fun of it.
Now it's obviously safe to say that if that was the idea behind it it backfired immensely. Perhaps one can argue that a hand full are indeed playing for the French team because that's where they'd be more successful but it's the same everywhere else. Look at the german team or the chart above someone else posted.
Above anything else though, suggesting that the athletes aren't really french without any proof that that's how they feel is really insulting.
I'm half German myself and while friends/people joke all the time about me being a Swede and that's all good fun and all but if someone seriously went up to me and told me "yeah, but you're not really a german" that'd be the last time I spoke to them.
If I walk around talking about how I'm not feeling german myself, sure maybe, but just out of the blue someone talking behind my back "yeah but that guy's not really german though" I'd be pissed. So... is Özil really German? + Show Spoiler [context] + Does he have a German passport? Then it is settled.
Kindergarten logic... I didn't expect anything less from social democrats at TL. Is Edward Snowden Russian then? Or, to take a step back, is he no longer American because his passport got revoked?
User was warned for this post.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiXoJBQW4AEFTT6.jpg)
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