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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
reason being that palestinian people have no one: Hamas screws them, Israelis kill them, Fatah screws them, Israelis kill them, international community is waiting for them to slowly die. there is no doubt in my mind that Israel could've ended this war a long time ago but, without a war, they couldn't get more land. no, it's not about religion. it's about land. it's always about land, it has always been about land. money and land. religion is just a tool. | ||
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
You see - Israel has got the power. They don't use it right. And no, that is not utopian at all, walk those steps. Walk them. God damn it. There is nothing utopian about it! | ||
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jellyjello
Korea (South)664 Posts
On July 23 2014 18:25 Schmobutzen wrote: Of course it is tough. But a cornered beeing is desperate! You see - Israel has got the power. They don't use it right. And no, that is not utopian at all, walk those steps. Walk them. God damn it. There is nothing utopian about it! You do realize that it was Hamas who refused the cease fire agreements, right? And more than once. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
We can't expect everyone in the world to behave perfectly; especially when so few have a good grasp of the situations. I'm not sure if I will respond to you further; I tend to avoid threads like this, because very few people want to have an actual intelligent discussion on the issues and learn, but want to yell out their preconceived complaints; which makes it generally useless to argue with people; and there are no set moderation standards to try to bring out the truth. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 23 2014 14:49 Sub40APM wrote: No he was right. The First Arab Israel war was in 1948. But the other is also right, Israel was clearly the aggressor in 56 and 67. But then was the defender in 73, 2006 and 2009. On July 23 2014 15:37 tokicheese wrote: Israel was an aggressor in 57 I'll give you that. Israel was also the aggressor in 1947. Before the war even started, they anticipated that Palestinian Arabs would resist Israeli control, and began importing weapons from both the U.S. and Soviet Union. Israeli launched an attack the day the British withdrew, but only after Yishuv forces waged a guerrilla war against the UK from 1944 to 1947. This led the UN to draw up a partition plan that neither Yishuv or Palestinian Arabs accepted, and so, when the British left, the Palestinian Arabs were heavily outmatched by Israeli forces, and mass refugees began pouring into neighboring Arab states, who felt political pressure to "stop the massacre". Israel has never recognized the sovereignty of Palestine in any way, shape, or form. Israel has steadfastly destroyed Arab communities across the West Bank and Gaza and replaced them with Israeli settlements. The reason that Israel and Palestine have not reached a treaty is because Israel refuses to accept any Palestinian state, and will continue to attack both the West Bank and Gaza, bulldoze Arab neighborhoods, and replace them with Israeli settlements until the UN puts their foot down and says enough. For anyone who says "They've been fighting for thousands of years", that's bullshit; from 638 A.D. to 1947 A.D., Palestine has been an Arab territory, controlled by Arabs who have lived peacefully alongside Jewish people for ages until the Balfour Declaration and the British policy of allowing massive Jewish immigration during the 1930s. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On July 23 2014 18:33 ninazerg wrote: Israel was also the aggressor in 1947. Before the war even started, they anticipated that Palestinian Arabs would resist Israeli control, and began importing weapons from both the U.S. and Soviet Union. Israeli launched an attack the day the British withdrew, but only after Yishuv forces waged a guerrilla war against the UK from 1944 to 1947. This led the UN to draw up a partition plan that neither Yishuv or Palestinian Arabs accepted, and so, when the British left, the Palestinian Arabs were heavily outmatched by Israeli forces, and mass refugees began pouring into neighboring Arab states, who felt political pressure to "stop the massacre". Israel has never recognized the sovereignty of Palestine in any way, shape, or form. Israel has steadfastly destroyed Arab communities across the West Bank and Gaza and replaced them with Israeli settlements. The reason that Israel and Palestine have not reached a treaty is because Israel refuses to accept any Palestinian state, and will continue to attack both the West Bank and Gaza, bulldoze Arab neighborhoods, and replace them with Israeli settlements until the UN puts their foot down and says enough. For anyone who says "They've been fighting for thousands of years", that's bullshit; from 638 A.D. to 1947 A.D., Palestine has been an Arab territory, controlled by Arabs who have lived peacefully alongside Jewish people for ages until the Balfour Declaration and the British policy of allowing massive Jewish immigration during the 1930s. What's done is done. It doesn't help anyone to shift the blame around for what happened many decades ago. The state Israel exists now and it cannot be wiped off the map without destroying the lives of millions. The sad thing is that while a lot of Israelis could easily resettle elsewhere in the world but do not want to, many Palestinians would gladly leave the country to lead a better life, but don't have the opportunities to do that. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 23 2014 18:43 ahswtini wrote: The sovereignty of Palestine? What is the Palestinian sovereign state? The land promised to Palestine by the United Nations, which Israel took away by force. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QRXcvQN.png) | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 23 2014 18:45 Maenander wrote: What's done is done. It doesn't help anyone to shift the blame around for what happened decades ago. The state Israel exists now and it cannot be wiped off the map without destroying the lives of millions. The sad thing is that while a lot of Israelis could easily resettle elsewhere in the world but do not want to, many Palestinians would gladly leave the country to lead a better life, but don't have the opportunities to do that. I would never say "Let's get rid of Israeli and give it back to the Arabs." but for Christ's sake, let's start with putting pressure on Israel to stop the bombings. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On July 23 2014 18:46 ninazerg wrote: The land promised to Palestine by the United Nations, which Israel took away by force. What is usually agreed upon internationally is the 1967 border. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel) Israel keeps building settlements on the Palestinian side of that border though so it doesn't look like they are very interested in a peace on those terms. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 23 2014 18:55 DrainX wrote: What is usually agreed upon internationally is the 1967 border. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel) Israel keeps building settlements on the Palestinian side of that border though so it doesn't look like they are very interested in a peace on those terms. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I wasn't saying that Israel should go back to the 1948 border, but someone asked what I meant by the state of Palestine, which no longer exists as it was captured by Israel and the rest annexed by Jordan, and then eventually, taken from Jordan. However, what you posted is the truth: Israel continues to build settlements into the West Bank. | ||
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
I would be very happy to answer any and all question regarding Israel and the current crisis both here and privately. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Just wanted to come in and give some insight about what is happening in France because it is a little more complicated than what appears to in the media. On July 23 2014 07:52 Sub40APM wrote: In France, crowds of 'Pro-Palestinians' (I put this in quotes because by their actions they have undermined any support they were trying to provide Palestinians) attacked Jewish mosques. So everything I'm saying is not clear since the investigations are not finished, but since i was in the manifestation I'll give you my point of view and some evidence to sustain that. I did not see anything, and to me the manifestation was completly peaceful. Now as you may know, the mainstream media said that part of the manifestation attacked a synagogue, but in the manifestation most people see it differently. At the same time, near the manifestation, a radical far right jewish group (called the jewish defence league, forbidden both in the US and in Israel, but somehow OK in France) was grouping itself at the synagogue (50 people or 150 people according to different sources). Those far right militants, according to people of the manifestation, ran into the manifestation and insulted / beat some of the people there, then ran to the synagogue. The stupidest people of the manifestation then ran after them and they clashed before the synagogue. Sadly the media only reported that the trouble came from the pro palestinians manifestant. Here is a video proving that, at the very least, pro israeli far right group rampaged the street before the synagogue : Those people are pro Israeli (they chant "Palestine we fuck you") and as you see they destroy everything in the street (not to mention they are completly protected by the police force...). Some english media defended this point of view btw : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2693423/Jewish-vigilantes-rampage-Paris-attack-pro-Palestinian-demonstrators.html I'll just add my point of view : journalists are lazy plus there is a blatant racism toward young arabs (and arabs people in general) so the french journalists didn't really try to check the story twice before talking about it. After that well our good for nothing president forbid any manifestation in Paris and Sarcelles (the two only place in France where violence appeared afterward), and people are really mad. In Sarcelles it was forbidden because both a pro palestinian and pro israeli (the same jewish defence league) wanted to meet at the same time in the same place... On July 23 2014 10:34 Nyxisto wrote: I completely agree. I was simply calling him out on the statement that Israel is considered an "occupying power", which is not the case. It is not up to you (nor me) to decide wheither Israel is an occupying force or not. According to the UN, the US, and most international organisation in the world (like Europe), Israel is occupying gaza. The reason as to why it is occupying gaza is, according to international law, that altho it is not effectively in gaza, it is still controlling a lot of things : some ressources, like water, the air space and both ground and sea borders. Israel is using everything it can to make people believe they are not occupying anymore because, according to the geneva accord, an occupying force is responsible for the well being of the occupied population – and Israelis don't want that. Source : http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza.occupation.question/ | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Miragee
8658 Posts
On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote: No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them. I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France. The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. And I'm really ashamed about people calling everyone an anti-semite or a blind anti-american who criticises israelic actions. Really, in this case none of the two sides is better than the other. It's two parties killing each other for over half a century (laying appart the reasons). To be against that stupidity has nothing to do with being anti semitic because you aren't opposed to jewish people because they are jewish but because of their actions. Same goes for the hamas. Or am I an anti-islamic guy because I think the hamas acts just as stupid? If I'm an anti-semetic for calling israel out, I'm also certainly an anti-islamic. Surprisingly enough, I never get called that way, let alone in a negative way. TL;DR: People who kill other people are shit. | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
On July 23 2014 19:44 IcemanAsi wrote: I am an Israeli citizen, a reserve IDF solider and a registered member of the Labor party. I would be very happy to answer any and all question regarding Israel and the current crisis both here and privately. What would be the best solution to end this crisis once and for all in your eyes? Do you think there is any way out of this war before palestina is completely dead (as there is no way Isreal is losing this)? Do you and your peers define a difference between the palestinians and the Hamas and whom are you fighting against? Thanks for your answers | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
http://www.democracynow.org/ | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On July 23 2014 14:39 Nyxisto wrote: He was referring to the Arab - Israeli war around the 1950s. First coffee, then posting  On July 23 2014 13:08 tokicheese wrote: The Arabs drooling at the mouth invaded moments after the British gave up the territory to the new state. On that note though, there was already a civil war going on which pretty much escalated into a US/USSR - Arab proxy war with the Arabs going "SYKE!" when push came to shove. There was no way in hell this situation would not have happened and pointing fingers there is kind of a moot point :/. | ||
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