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On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong.
So as long as the UN supports you, you can fuck whoever you want?
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On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong.
Most people with an opinion on Israel recognize it as a state. Where the controversy begins is when Palestine is not being recognized as a state which the World Court recognizes and the settlements which the World Court condemns.
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On July 23 2014 10:31 iyasq8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. So as long as the UN supports you, you can fuck whoever you want?
They're not doing "whatever the fuck they want". If Israel commits war crimes, they're called out for it and sanctioned. If Israelis commit a crime they're punished in a court of law. The same thing is not true for many Islamic countries in which people kill or oppress other religious minorities.
On July 23 2014 10:34 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. Most people with an opinion on Israel recognize it as a state. Where the controversy begins is when Palestine is not being recognized as a state.
I completely agree. I was simply calling him out on the statement that Israel is considered an "occupying power", which is not the case.
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On July 23 2014 10:34 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 10:31 iyasq8 wrote:On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. So as long as the UN supports you, you can fuck whoever you want? They're not doing "whatever the fuck they want". If Israel commits war crimes, they're called out for it and sanctioned. If Israelis commit a crime they're punished in a court of law. The same thing is not true for many Islamic countries in which people kill or oppress other religious minorities.
If you can call a weak slap on the wrist a sanction.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
a palestinian "islamic" state would be pretty much a nonstarter from basic concept.
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On July 23 2014 09:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 08:58 iyasq8 wrote:
I really doubt its about religion. I think the same issue would've happened if they both had the same religion. No it wouldn't have. It's about Religion, pure and simple.
It's really tragic.
The region has been fought over for a very long time by many different reason and by many different nations. The situation right now is partially because of religion, partially because Jews were being Persecuted during world war II and partially because they were promised by European forces that they could have a part of the land.There are allot of things that created this situation and not just ONE thing.
The most tragic thing is that if you look at the history of its land this violence cycle will continue, regardless of what timeframe or nationality we are talking about there has always been war there.
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On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong.
Wheter Micronesia or Lichtenstein recognises a country or not that's hardly relevant (no offense). Israel is barely recognised in the region, and there are good reasons for that...
The West Bank, East Jerusaelem, but also pretty much everything beyond the original partition plan is occupied territory.
They're not doing "whatever the fuck they want". If Israel commits war crimes, they're called out for it and sanctioned. If Israelis commit a crime they're punished in a court of law. The same thing is not true for many Islamic countries in which people kill or oppress other religious minorities.
No. Israel has never been sanctioned by the Western nations (except very few NGOs), in fact they recieve billions of cash for free, mostly from the US but also for Germany but keep building settlements and violating human rights. Israelis have never been tried for their war crimes internationally.
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Sad news again and again it's war after war.
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@EtherealBlade
If a country is a UN member state that means it is a recognized country. Please stop redefining words.
Regarding the occupied territories. Almost all of the territory Israel gained, they gained through wars that were initiated by the Arab World. If the Arab league would have accepted the initial UN plan, Palestine would now have a state. They didn't. Basically the whole Arab world declared war on Israel two days later. They got their ass whooped and ended up worse. 20 years later they tried the same thing, and again lost territory after the six-day war.
+ Show Spoiler +
If you don't want to lose territory, don't go to war with your neighbours every two decades. I don't like the settlement stuff, but after all the Arab World decided that they didn't want to go down the diplomatic road. The Hamas until this day uses terrorism, including human shields and suicide bombers, who sometimes are still children. It's not very had for me to pick sides here. If you're on the side of the people that use terrorism as a weapon, you're wrong. If what had happened to Israel had happened to any other country, we wouldn't even be discussing Israels 'harsh reaction'.
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I find it ironic that when the Jews fled from Nazi-occupied Europe, many nations around the world closed their doors on the Jews, but Palestine was one of the few nations to open its doors for the Jews to come in and take refuge....
Also considering the guerilla tactics used by the Hamas, let's consider a strategic point of view since we are all Starcraft players here. How do you beat an army that is superior, larger, backed by billions of US dollars and more technologically advanced than yours? Well it's simple, you use unconventional and guerilla tactics, it's how any of us would fight if we were the underdogs.
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Or you simply stop fighting Israel, recognize it as a country, kick the Hamas out of your own and the fighting will stop. Israel is not actually going to war because they thoroughly enjoy it.
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On July 23 2014 12:40 Days wrote:
I find it ironic that when the Jews fled from Nazi-occupied Europe, many nations around the world closed their doors on the Jews, but Palestine was one of the few nations to open its doors for the Jews to come in and take refuge....
Also considering the guerilla tactics used by the Hamas, let's consider a strategic point of view since we are all Starcraft players here. How do you beat an army that is superior, larger, backed by billions of US dollars and more technologically advanced than yours? Well it's simple, you use unconventional and guerilla tactics, it's how any of us would fight if we were the underdogs.
Actually, the British Mandate of Palestine actively sought to turn away Jews, just like every other British legal entity.
And I wouldnt make this analogy between 'starcraft' or whatever for the simple reason because it abdicate the responsibility of Hamas. Islamists are not equivalent to a democracy -- even a flawed one like Israel -- and quite frankly the main reason I am 'ok' with criticism of Israel, as compared to other rights abusers, is that as a democracy Israel is much more likely to listen to criticism than places like Pakistan or Syria or Iraq.
On July 23 2014 12:48 Nyxisto wrote:
Or you simply stop fighting Israel, recognize it as a country, kick the Hamas out of your own and the fighting will stop. Israel is not actually going to war because they thoroughly enjoy it.
Its not like there is an option to kick out Islamist terrorist once they take over. The only time when they leave is when some other armed force takes them out. Palestinians in Gaza are basically their hostages. No different than North Koreans are to the Kims. And when you factor in that the vast majority of them are children and susceptible to propaganda, its easy to see how Israel finds itself in a strategically unclear position
The great tragedy is that leftist, non nationalist/religious political concepts are on the vane in both Israel and Palestine.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the populace of gaza has about as low degree of self government as possible so idk if anything will be accomplished by putting actor responsibility on them. it's a situation that, if it is to be resolved, has to depend on more organized and educated actors.
in this case playing the blame game is also fairly pointless though, because hamas obviously is a terrorist organization that won't ever respond to international blaming and shaming, the arab states are basically jabba the hut and about as shameless. i'm not sure if israeli unilateral action can even resolve it.
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How can people blame all of this on Israel is beyond me.
They split the region into two nations that seemed like a fairly reasonable in 1948. The Arabs drooling at the mouth invaded moments after the British gave up the territory to the new state. After however many wars now people in Gaza voted in Hamas which has a clause in it's constitution to wipe out Israel.
Israel has every right to defend it's self fuck this liberal crap about unequal death tolls. I'm sure if some group across the border were shooting rockets at your family you would be waiting for more of your friends and family to die to even up the death toll huh?
Edit: The death toll on civilians is also high because Hamas is extremely well documented in using human shields. When Israel fucks up people go to jail. When Hamas kills civilians they get a parade.
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I have very little sympathy for Israel. While they are of course entitled to all the actions they are taking, I don't feel they should not be harshly criticised for doing so.
You are entirely within your rights to not give a starving man food when he knocks at your door
You are entirely within your rights not to endanger yourself, even slightly, to save another's life
Does this mean that you should be free of criticism if you choose to exercise those rights?
I feel that the toll of suffering on palestinians directly caused by Israel is far and beyond what is reasonable for the level of damage being inflicted on Israel by a group that the majority of palestinians (supposedly) do not freely support. I am well aware of the psychological damage and fear that Hamas' terror campaign causes, but I don't feel anyone can objectively compare it to the economic, psychological and mortal toll Israel's response has taken on Palestine.
I feel that Israel is acting in ways that reflect incredibly poorly upon it and only reinforce the stereotypes and prejudices that anti-semites hold. As much as the state says it desires peace, it desires peace on its own terms only and cares little for the desires and needs of Palestine. I feel it uses power granted to it by a colonial aggressor and leverages the global shame caused by the holocaust to avoid being held accountable for actions any other western power would be harshly isolated for. I feel it has chosen to focus its tactics on military power and use of force rather than co-development, understandable given the success that tactic has had in preserving and empowering the state of Israel, but it has done so at the cost of countless non-Israeli lives, economic security for the region and the usual military buildup such tactics create.
Essentially, Israel has acted recklessly and amorally while trying to pretend that it is doing neither. It seems to value the life of a single Israeli citizen, even that of a soldier trained and sworn to risk their life for peace and security, above any number of outsiders. I disagree with this apparent attitude strongly.
*I will also note that I feel like if israel was genuinely interested in a respectful dialogue the settlement issue would not exist. That settlement continues seems to run counter to any argument that Israel does not feel it owns the lands around its borders and that the current occupants have no right to that territory.
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On July 23 2014 09:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 08:58 iyasq8 wrote:
I really doubt its about religion. I think the same issue would've happened if they both had the same religion. No it wouldn't have. It's about Religion, pure and simple.
Its about land. It always was. Religion and past crimes just add some gunpowder to the mixture.
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On July 23 2014 13:08 tokicheese wrote:
The Arabs drooling at the mouth invaded moments after the British gave up the territory to the new state.
You might want to actually read up on the 6-day "war" before saying stuff like this.
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Israel has dropped over 2000 bombs into Hamas, which is an area of 141 square miles (imagine a 12 mile x 12 mile area) that has over 1 million people. It's amazing that there have been so few civilian casualties when Hamas hides their military equipment in hospitals and schools. Israel drops leaflets in the areas that are about to be bombed so that there will be less civilian casualties.
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I don't agree with Israel being even "entitled" to the action they are taking. You think not allowing access to goods coming from the ocean is a right that Israel should get to determine for another state? Fighting might stop if Hamas is kicked out but that doesn't put the Palestinians any closer to having their state or to not have the Israelis continue to build settlements in the West Bank. There is no desire for a two state solution from Israel, just a slow decay of the borders between the West Bank and Israel so that a critical mass of Israelis will exist in the West Bank to cement a larger apartheid state.
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On July 23 2014 14:28 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 13:08 tokicheese wrote:
The Arabs drooling at the mouth invaded moments after the British gave up the territory to the new state. You might want to actually read up on the 6-day "war" before saying stuff like this.
He was referring to the Arab - Israeli war around the 1950s.
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EPT
