On July 23 2014 08:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Genocide by attrition.
If a genocide is happening population usually doesn't go up. It's a completely ridiculous claim to make. Israel is not trying to systematically eradicate the Palestine people. If anyone has a genocide in mind you should take a look at what the, still official mind you, Hamas(the guys that are part of the government) charter says:
... But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
On July 23 2014 08:58 iyasq8 wrote: I really doubt its about religion. I think the same issue would've happened if they both had the same religion.
Well without religion it would be pretty easy to just get one of them to move to some other land and make a new country in the Middle East. Iraq is probably going to get fragmented anyway so might as well knock them both out of the way so we only have to do one batch of new maps/globes.
Personally without the religion part I'd say move Israel to the southern border of the US and let them handle the Immigration issue. 2 birds 1 stone. Texas is big I think we could convince them to shave off enough to make an Israel (not like it's a big country)
But seriously religion is used more as a justification for the hate rather than a source... The killing each other generates plenty of hate on it's own.
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
On July 23 2014 08:58 iyasq8 wrote: I really doubt its about religion. I think the same issue would've happened if they both had the same religion.
Well without religion it would be pretty easy to just get one of them to move to some other land and make a new country in the Middle East. Iraq is probably going to get fragmented anyway so might as well knock them both out of the way so we only have to do one batch of new maps/globes.
Personally without the religion part I'd say move Israel to the southern border of the US and let them handle the Immigration issue. 2 birds 1 stone. Texas is big I think we could convince them to shave off enough to make an Israel (not like it's a big country)
But seriously religion is used more as a justification for the hate rather than a source... The killing each other generates plenty of hate on it's own.
The hate is manufactured, and therefore political in nature IMO.
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
You have to start with demands higher than what you really desire in order to work down during negotiations. Also I don't get your analogy, why aren't Native Americans' claims to America legitimate?
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
Surprisingly, Hamas's position on the entire region is pretty moderate. Basically, they are willing to accept a reality of a June 1967 border but they will never accept the legitimacy of Israel.
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
Surprisingly, Hamas's position on the entire region is pretty moderate. Basically, they are willing to accept a reality of a June 1967 border but they will never accept the legitimacy of Israel.
...how is that supposed to be pretty moderate? Given the fact that there happen to be 8 million Israelis in the region?
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
You have to start with demands higher than what you really desire in order to work down during negotiations. Also I don't get your analogy, why aren't Native Americans' claims to America legitimate?
They are legitimate, so are your claims to continuing to live there.
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
Surprisingly, Hamas's position on the entire region is pretty moderate. Basically, they are willing to accept a reality of a June 1967 border but they will never accept the legitimacy of Israel.
Hamas' number 2 man declared in May that Hamas would never recognize Israel, its a 'red line', does not seem particularly moderate.
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
You have to start with demands higher than what you really desire in order to work down during negotiations. Also I don't get your analogy, why aren't Native Americans' claims to America legitimate?
They are legitimate, so are your claims to continuing to live there.
Are they legitimate or practical and irreversible?
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
Surprisingly, Hamas's position on the entire region is pretty moderate. Basically, they are willing to accept a reality of a June 1967 border but they will never accept the legitimacy of Israel.
...how is that supposed to be pretty moderate? Given the fact that there happen to be 8 million Israelis in the region?
In politics, you always have to compromise meaning that sometimes, there are groups that will never get what they fully want and this is the case for Hamas.
Also, a one state solution does not mean genocide. In the case of the PFLP, it simply means have a state called Palestine that happens to have Israelis in it. As for Hamas, it is rather interesting. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-04/02/content_4373348.htm
"I dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it," he said. "I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel)."
"This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land," said al-Zahar.
However, he didn't rule out the possibility of having Jews, Muslims and Christians living under the sovereignty of an Islamic state, adding that the Palestinians never hated the Jews and that only the Israeli occupation was their enemy.
Of course I doubt they would keep true to their word of an all encompassing Islamic state given that Arab nations seem to love oppressing their minorities, but let's be real, the one state solution is dead and has been dead for a very long time.
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
Surprisingly, Hamas's position on the entire region is pretty moderate. Basically, they are willing to accept a reality of a June 1967 border but they will never accept the legitimacy of Israel.
Hamas' number 2 man declared in May that Hamas would never recognize Israel, its a 'red line', does not seem particularly moderate.
Gandhi refused to accept Pakistan's legitimacy but that did not stop him from accepting the reality.
hamas is obviously radical and wrong but it's also a leap of some distance to see them as the permanent representation of the gaza population. if better treatment is somehow made possible, not only from the israeli side but other arab states, perhaps hamas would be more marginalized. of course they are rather entrenched right now but that they are isn't an unavoidable fact. the west bank is relatively more moderate.
On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote: This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?
There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons.
Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society?
Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them.
Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc.
The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else"
There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate.
Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas.
You have to start with demands higher than what you really desire in order to work down during negotiations. Also I don't get your analogy, why aren't Native Americans' claims to America legitimate?
They are legitimate, so are your claims to continuing to live there.
Are they legitimate or practical and irreversible?
They are legitimate, you didnt choose to personally ethnically cleanse people whose land you used to live on, you and your parents up until a certain generation were born here, and before they maybe they moved here because the land was already made empty thanks to a previous genocide. Just like you dont see some Assyrian show up in Palestine and demand that the Arabs fuck off since his people were there first and so forth.
On July 23 2014 09:46 Shiragaku wrote: Also, a one state solution does not mean genocide. In the case of the PFLP, it simply means have a state called Palestine that happens to have Israelis in it. As for Hamas, it is rather interesting.
1. That's never going to happen 2. For the sake of everybody involved I'd rather have a unified Israelian state with the Palestine people in it than the other way around. I don't see how removing the single democratic country in the region is going to help anyone
On July 23 2014 09:47 oneofthem wrote: hamas is obviously radical and wrong but it's also a leap of some distance to see them as the permanent representation of the gaza population. if better treatment is somehow made possible, not only from the israeli side but other arab states, perhaps hamas would be more marginalized. of course they are rather entrenched right now but that they are isn't an unavoidable fact. the west bank is relatively more moderate.
That is why there has even been talk of a three state solution.
On July 23 2014 09:46 Shiragaku wrote: Also, a one state solution does not mean genocide. In the case of the PFLP, it simply means have a state called Palestine that happens to have Israelis in it. As for Hamas, it is rather interesting.
1. That's never going to happen 2. For the sake of everybody involved I'd rather have a unified Israelian state with the Palestine people in it than the other way around. I don't see how removing the single democratic country in the region is going to help anyone
I did say that it would never happen =/ But concerning democracy in the Palestinian territories, the Palestinians have proven themselves capable of at least doing basic democratic politics. And don't forget that you have Lebanon which is a democracy as unstable as it may be at times.
On July 23 2014 09:46 Shiragaku wrote: Also, a one state solution does not mean genocide. In the case of the PFLP, it simply means have a state called Palestine that happens to have Israelis in it. As for Hamas, it is rather interesting.
1. That's never going to happen 2. For the sake of everybody involved I'd rather have a unified Israelian state with the Palestine people in it than the other way around. I don't see how removing the single democratic country in the region is going to help anyone
It would actually help pretty much everyone in the area except the Israelis.
On July 23 2014 09:46 Shiragaku wrote: Also, a one state solution does not mean genocide. In the case of the PFLP, it simply means have a state called Palestine that happens to have Israelis in it. As for Hamas, it is rather interesting.
1. That's never going to happen 2. For the sake of everybody involved I'd rather have a unified Israelian state with the Palestine people in it than the other way around. I don't see how removing the single democratic country in the region is going to help anyone
They are ready to massacre them every few years, do you really think they can live in an Israeli state and be treated as humans?
As a german, it's pretty hard to be critical about israelian wrongdoings (and there are alot of them). Over here you get called anti-semite as soon as you start to be critical and ask the wrong questions. As little as "well those settlements are illegal, why are they ignoring that fact?" can mark you as anti-semite, regardless of the fact that this is a very important question.
The more time goes on, the more i shift to the opinion that obviously the hamas is wrong in their actions, but the israelis are not an ounce better. It's actually pretty hard to get unbiased opinions about the gaza conflict in the medias (almost all of them are pro-israel, leaving out the bad stuff), but if you read a bit into it, well.. Yeah.
A simple question would be, if israel is "invading" your country, how would you react, ultimately? After that, you can ask yourself how stuff should go on from here. Hint, an Israel with palestine people is never going to happen, and i actually understand the reason.
edit: and to prevent dumb answers: Israel is considered an occupying power under international law, so "invading" is a term well fitting.
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong.
EPT![[image loading]](http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/files/1-israeli-palestinian-images/west-bank-and-gaza-strip-arab-population-1948-to-2005.gif)
