|
TLADT24920 Posts
Some of these posts are so ignorant and misinformed, really sad to read but not surprising. Wasn't planning on commenting because it wouldn't change opinions anyways but I'll write a couple of points. Just wanted to say those who keep typing that same line of "they have the right to defend themselves" should actually look at the whole context and backstory and not what's currently happening now. Right to defend is fine and makes sense but that doesn't justify the genocide that's ongoing atm.
Also, I had to facepalm hard for whoever wrote that Israel gets sanctioned for war crimes. Do you even watch the news? Every single criminal act that could lead to sanctions gets vetoed by the US. Nothing ever gets through because of that. Israel doesn't really care much for human life and as someone else mentioned, land is all they care about using religion to try to justify it. The whole 'we are Gods' chosen people'. It's true that they were but that doesn't entitle them to massacre the Palestinians and try to take more lands from other countries as well. They keep using white phosphorus which is banned. In my country, they dropped > 1 million cluster bombs when they knew a ceasefire was coming. Who the fuck does that shit? For years after our war, we've had civilians and soldiers dying, upwards of 60 a month at one point.
My hearts goes out to the Palestinian people. I hope you guys have your Palestinian state one day and Israel and its leader get charged for the war crimes that they are guilty of.
|
On July 23 2014 20:45 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. And I'm really ashamed about people calling everyone an anti-semite or a blind anti-american who criticises israelic actions. Really, in this case none of the two sides is better than the other. It's two parties killing each other for over half a century (laying appart the reasons). To be against that stupidity has nothing to do with being anti semitic because you aren't opposed to jewish people because they are jewish but because of their actions. Same goes for the hamas. Or am I an anti-islamic guy because I think the hamas acts just as stupid? If I'm an anti-semetic for calling israel out, I'm also certainly an anti-islamic. Surprisingly enough, I never get called that way, let alone in a negative way. TL;DR: People who kill other people are shit.
Except it is not equal blame. It never was. If you run into a jungle with a machinegun and gun down a Gorilla, is that equal blame? Yes that Gorilla would probably kill you for intruding into his territory and if he somehow managed to get to you before being gunned down. But you came there and you control the situation with your machinegun.
I am sorry for the crude comparison but that is exactly what is happening here. People with 100x more military power are bullying those without. They have more power to stop this and as a result more responsibility. If war continues they are more to blame than those that cannot do anything anyways. Israel if they wanted could kill everyone person in Palestine and nobody in Palestine could do shit about it, while Palestine could not do something similar in 0.000001% cases.
Israel controls the situation and is mostly responsible.
|
On July 23 2014 21:00 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 19:44 IcemanAsi wrote:
I am an Israeli citizen, a reserve IDF solider and a registered member of the Labor party.
I would be very happy to answer any and all question regarding Israel and the current crisis both here and privately.
What would be the best solution to end this crisis once and for all in your eyes? Do you think there is any way out of this war before palestina is completely dead (as there is no way Isreal is losing this)? Do you and your peers define a difference between the palestinians and the Hamas and whom are you fighting against? Thanks for your answers
I'll do this in reverse order if you don't mind.
"Do you and your peers define a difference between the palestinians and the Hamas and whom are you fighting against?"
Let's start by explaining that Israel, like any other country, has many voices and many political views. I myself am a member of the 'Left' side, a more socialist, more anti-theist, more peaceful side. The current ruling party the "Likud" is a 'Right' side party with stronger ties to religion, free-capital, and more focused on military solutions.
Both sides recognize the difference between Palestinians and Hamas, viewing the Palestinian population as much a victim of Hamas as our own. With differing views on the acceptable scope of civilian causalities in conflict.
It saddens me to say however, that in recent years extreme right groups have grown stronger, these groups do not differentiate between the two. Citing the population silent acceptance of Hamas as De facto support and membership in terrorist activity. An example of such a party in the government is the "Jewish House" party ( http://www.baityehudi.org.il/ )
"Do you think there is any way out of this war before palestina is completely dead (as there is no way Isreal is losing this)?"
The current conflict "Protective Edge" will end in at most a matter of 2-3 weeks, probably less, once the majority of Hamas dug tunnels into Israel and used as rocket fire infrastructure will be destroyed.
"What would be the best solution to end this crisis once and for all in your eyes?"
A two state solution. A Palestinian state and an Israeli state with land based on the 1967 armistice lines with equivalent land swaps to accommodate settlement blocks on both side.
|
On July 23 2014 21:11 BigFan wrote:
Some of these posts are so ignorant and misinformed, really sad to read but not surprising. Wasn't planning on commenting because it wouldn't change opinions anyways but I'll write a couple of points. Just wanted to say those who keep typing that same line of "they have the right to defend themselves" should actually look at the whole context and backstory and not what's currently happening now. Right to defend is fine and makes sense but that doesn't justify the genocide that's ongoing atm.
Also, I had to facepalm hard for whoever wrote that Israel gets sanctioned for war crimes. Do you even watch the news? Every single criminal act that could lead to sanctions gets vetoed by the US. Nothing ever gets through because of that. Israel doesn't really care much for human life and as someone else mentioned, land is all they care about using religion to try to justify it. The whole 'we are Gods' chosen people'. It's true that they were but that doesn't entitle them to massacre the Palestinians and try to take more lands from other countries as well. They keep using white phosphorus which is banned. In my country, they dropped > 1 million cluster bombs when they knew a ceasefire was coming. Who the fuck does that shit? For years after our war, we've had civilians and soldiers dying, upwards of 60 a month at one point.
My hearts goes out to the Palestinian people. I hope you guys have your Palestinian state one day and Israel and its leader get charged for the war crimes that they are guilty of.
You are the ignorant one. You do not understand the meaning of the word genocide.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide?s=t
It's also a documented fact that Israel does care for human life on the whole; however imperfect its policies may be. Learn about the statistics of warfare, and civilian casualty rates.
Don't accuse others of ignorance until you get your own house in order.
|
On July 23 2014 21:25 IcemanAsi wrote:
A two state solution. A Palestinian state and an Israeli state with land based on the 1967 armistice lines with equivalent land swaps to accommodate settlement blocks on both side.
I'm a little uneducated on the subject, but wouldn't this eventually lead to Crimea like situations?
|
On July 23 2014 21:17 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 20:45 Miragee wrote:On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. And I'm really ashamed about people calling everyone an anti-semite or a blind anti-american who criticises israelic actions. Really, in this case none of the two sides is better than the other. It's two parties killing each other for over half a century (laying appart the reasons). To be against that stupidity has nothing to do with being anti semitic because you aren't opposed to jewish people because they are jewish but because of their actions. Same goes for the hamas. Or am I an anti-islamic guy because I think the hamas acts just as stupid? If I'm an anti-semetic for calling israel out, I'm also certainly an anti-islamic. Surprisingly enough, I never get called that way, let alone in a negative way. TL;DR: People who kill other people are shit. Except it is not equal blame. It never was. If you run into a jungle with a machinegun and gun down a Gorilla, is that equal blame? Yes that Gorilla would probably kill you for intruding into his territory and if he somehow managed to get to you before being gunned down. But you came there and you control the situation with your machinegun. I am sorry for the crude comparison but that is exactly what is happening here. People with 100x more military power are bullying those without. They have more power to stop this and as a result more responsibility. If war continues they are more to blame than those that cannot do anything anyways. Israel if they wanted could kill everyone person in Palestine and nobody in Palestine could do shit about it, while Palestine could not do something similar in 0.000001% cases. Israel controls the situation and is mostly responsible.
Allow me to ask you a question.
My daughter Noga ( the hebrew name of the star venus, also meaning 'glow' ) was born in Israel a few months ago.
I was born in Israel.
My father was born in Israel.
We've lived here for three generations, born here and lived here and will die here.
My daughter, how did she "intrude" on someone else?
She was simply born here, so was I.
|
On July 23 2014 21:28 19Meavis93 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 21:25 IcemanAsi wrote:
A two state solution. A Palestinian state and an Israeli state with land based on the 1967 armistice lines with equivalent land swaps to accommodate settlement blocks on both side. I'm a little uneducated on the subject, but wouldn't this eventually lead to Crimea like situations?
The problem in Crimea is similar that's its one country that "wants" to be split in two.
The two state solution suggests making that split in this area, so that you have a Palestinian state and an Israeli state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
|
On July 23 2014 11:33 ninazerg wrote:
Israel was also the aggressor in 1947. Before the war even started, they anticipated that Palestinian Arabs would resist Israeli control, and began importing weapons from both the U.S. and Soviet Union. Israeli launched an attack the day the British withdrew, but only after Yishuv forces waged a guerrilla war against the UK from 1944 to 1947. This led the UN to draw up a partition plan that neither Yishuv or Palestinian Arabs accepted, and so, when the British left, the Palestinian Arabs were heavily outmatched by Israeli forces, and mass refugees began pouring into neighboring Arab states, who felt political pressure to "stop the massacre".
Israel has never recognized the sovereignty of Palestine in any way, shape, or form. Israel has steadfastly destroyed Arab communities across the West Bank and Gaza and replaced them with Israeli settlements. The reason that Israel and Palestine have not reached a treaty is because Israel refuses to accept any Palestinian state, and will continue to attack both the West Bank and Gaza, bulldoze Arab neighborhoods, and replace them with Israeli settlements until the UN puts their foot down and says enough.
For anyone who says "They've been fighting for thousands of years", that's bullshit; from 638 A.D. to 1947 A.D., Palestine has been an Arab territory, controlled by Arabs who have lived peacefully alongside Jewish people for ages until the Balfour Declaration and the British policy of allowing massive Jewish immigration during the 1930s.
Lies, lies and damned lies. This will be my only message to you as I cannot stand dishonest anti-semites such as yourself. I'm responding to you only so that your incitement won't go unanswered.
Israel wasn't the aggressor upon its founding in 1947, this a quote from Wikipedia that describes the parties responses to the UN partition plan: "The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine rejected it.[82] On 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets.[83] The Jews were initially on the defensive as civil war broke out, but gradually moved onto the offensive.[84]"
Note that the Jews were willing to go along with what the UN had proscribed and share the land in peace, but this was all rendered moot when the Arabs launched their war of genocide. (This is not mentioned in the article and I have no source for it at hand, but their ambition was to "drive the Jews in to the sea".) And no, there were no "massacre" committed by the Jews.
The next year, 1948 that is, the Arabs tried to follow in the Nazi's footsteps once again: "The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq—entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War;[89][90]". And again their evil plans didn't come to fruition, largely because of their own their own incompetence - but that's not really relevant. They would go on to repeatedly try to slaughter the Jews.
With all the Palestinian communities supposedly destroyed by the Jews its odd that their population has skyrocketed and doubled several times over since the forties. In reality, Israeli Arabs live under the best economic and politic circumstances in the ME, they have full rights and representatives in the Israeli parliament - the Knesset - and many serve in the IDF to protect the state against terrorists and hostile state actors. As a whole they are becoming more patriotic and fond of Israel with each year that passes. Even those that wish the country harm generally admire its democracy.
It should be perfectly obvious to all non-antisemitc, non-extremist zealots why there have no been no peace treaty. Lets get this straight first of all - the IDF is fighting a wholly defensive war - that it didn't want or initiate - against terrorist forces that have as its ultimate aim the murder of all Jews in Israel (which they are very forthcoming about in their founding charter). Hamas came to power in a democratic vote at which point it was clear what Hamas was and what they were after. In other words, the Palestinians voted for Jihadists to do what they could to commit genocide. Polls since then has shown the same thing, not only are the Palestinians the most anti-semitic people on Earth, they also overwhelmingly see the diplomatic process as a means to weaken Israel ahead of a future war of conquest. Guess what they'd do subjugated Jews? Israel cannot be expected to sign peace treaties that would have no more meaning than ink on a page, that would also cripple its ability to defend itself.
This brings me smoothly to my next point - which is arguably your most heinous lie. "Palestine has been an Arab territory, controlled by Arabs who have lived peacefully alongside Jewish people for ages until the Balfour Declaration and the British policy of allowing massive Jewish immigration during the 1930s." Arabs have committed gruesome, truly horrific and barbaric pogroms against subjugated Jews for centuries in the holy land. Look up, say, the 1920 Palestine riots or the Safed pogrom if you're not eating. This is what has happened to religious and ethnic minorities under the rule of Muslims since the dawn of Islam. Worse would happen to former Israeli Jews of course.
|
Thanks for your answers. I agree with most of what you said allthough I dont consider myself too well-educated about this current conflict. It is to be suspected , but still very good to hear that a lot of Israelians share realistic world views.
What do you think will realistically happen after "Protective Edge" comes to an end?
Wont there be a new surge in extremists due to many casualties in Palestina leading to a more and more dire situation? How can anyone suspect there to ever be a two nation solution while any of these current governments are in place?
|
A lot of shit gets talked in this thread. Words like "genocide" getting thrown around, immidiately making an eventual argument in the rest of the text worthless. If you plan a genocide and the population of the people you want to kill is steadily growing for some decades, well you might have gotten it wrong.
Since this exact thread gets made atleast once a year, depending on how often shit goes down in that area, I would just like to point out my opinion, basically unchanged from the last time such a thread was made:
There will never be peace between the Isrealis and the Palestinians. I think the final goal of the Israelis is it, to concentrate the Palestinians on the least amount of territory possible, while to Palestinians want to throw the Jews ointo the sea.
They will both pursue that goals until they achieve them, meaning Hamas and Co. will fight as long they have bombs, mortars and Kassams, the Arab world will make sure that they don't run our of supplies, and the Israelis will keep on fighting, regardless of international Echo, because in the end the Americans will always protect the Israelis from diplomatical or economical repercussions.
I don't think that we will see a solution to the conflict in my lifetime, I think the only solution is one of the parties involved winning.
|
On July 23 2014 21:40 AngryMag wrote:
A lot of shit gets talked in this thread. Words like "genocide" getting thrown around, immidiately making an eventual argument in the rest of the text worthless. If you plan a genocide and the population of the people you want to kill is steadily growing for some decades, well you might have gotten it wrong.
Since this exact thread gets made atleast once a year, depending on how often shit goes down in that area, I would just like to point out my opinion, basically unchanged from the last time such a thread was made:
There will never be peace between the Isrealis and the Palestinians. I think the final goal of the Israelis is it, to concentrate the Palestinians on the least amount of territory possible, while to Palestinians want to throw the Jews ointo the sea.
They will both pursue that goals until they achieve them, meaning Hamas and Co. will fight as long they have bombs, mortars and Kassams, the Arab world will make sure that they don't run our of supplies, and the Israelis will keep on fighting, regardless of international Echo, because in the end the Americans will always protect the Israelis from diplomatical or economical repercussions.
I don't think that we will see a solution to the conflict in my lifetime, I think the only solution is one of the parties involved winning.
. If the current generation is not able to solve conflicts then the next generation has to try. "This conflict will never be solved" so lets just ignore it [that is how I understand your post] is an attitude I find highly questionnable: It takes away people's responsibility to try and solve the problem as it seemingly cannot be solved anyway. And obviously the two parties involved in this war need a lot of help from outside in solving this so I think a healthy discussion, as well as educating and informing people are the best thing everyone can do.
|
On July 23 2014 21:17 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 20:45 Miragee wrote:On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. And I'm really ashamed about people calling everyone an anti-semite or a blind anti-american who criticises israelic actions. Really, in this case none of the two sides is better than the other. It's two parties killing each other for over half a century (laying appart the reasons). To be against that stupidity has nothing to do with being anti semitic because you aren't opposed to jewish people because they are jewish but because of their actions. Same goes for the hamas. Or am I an anti-islamic guy because I think the hamas acts just as stupid? If I'm an anti-semetic for calling israel out, I'm also certainly an anti-islamic. Surprisingly enough, I never get called that way, let alone in a negative way. TL;DR: People who kill other people are shit. Except it is not equal blame. It never was. If you run into a jungle with a machinegun and gun down a Gorilla, is that equal blame? Yes that Gorilla would probably kill you for intruding into his territory and if he somehow managed to get to you before being gunned down. But you came there and you control the situation with your machinegun. I am sorry for the crude comparison but that is exactly what is happening here. People with 100x more military power are bullying those without. They have more power to stop this and as a result more responsibility. If war continues they are more to blame than those that cannot do anything anyways. Israel if they wanted could kill everyone person in Palestine and nobody in Palestine could do shit about it, while Palestine could not do something similar in 0.000001% cases. Israel controls the situation and is mostly responsible.
I partly agree with you. I don't think it's that simple calling one party intruders in this case. But I just wanted to adress the "anti-semetic call out" issue. That's why I said "laying apart the reasons". 
|
On July 23 2014 21:37 BetterThanThisPlace wrote:
And no, there were no "massacre" committed by the Jews.
You might want to read that article again, there were multiple -_- .
|
On July 23 2014 21:39 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
Thanks for your answers. I agree with most of what you said allthough I dont consider myself too well-educated about this current conflict. It is to be suspected , but still very good to hear that a lot of Israelians share realistic world views.
What do you think will realistically happen after "Protective Edge" comes to an end?
Wont there be a new surge in extremists due to many casualties in Palestina leading to a more and more dire situation? How can anyone suspect there to ever be a two nation solution while any of these current governments are in place?
I can say with a very, very heavy heart that I don't think the current operation will change much.
Hamas will suffer a blow to it's tactical capabilities, which will be refilled slowly after, as Hamas will use the dead civilians as a rallying cry for more supporters inside Gaza and from external funding. The Hamas leadership, who are hiding at distant Arab countries will become richer due to the influx of new money and Israeli Right party politics will become stronger as they always do when people are under martial threat.
Hamas will never accept any two state solution.
The 'Likud' Right wing ruling party will only accept a form of two state solution that no Palestinian would deem worthy.
so, yeah, heavy heart.
|
On July 23 2014 21:31 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 21:17 -Archangel- wrote:On July 23 2014 20:45 Miragee wrote:On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. And I'm really ashamed about people calling everyone an anti-semite or a blind anti-american who criticises israelic actions. Really, in this case none of the two sides is better than the other. It's two parties killing each other for over half a century (laying appart the reasons). To be against that stupidity has nothing to do with being anti semitic because you aren't opposed to jewish people because they are jewish but because of their actions. Same goes for the hamas. Or am I an anti-islamic guy because I think the hamas acts just as stupid? If I'm an anti-semetic for calling israel out, I'm also certainly an anti-islamic. Surprisingly enough, I never get called that way, let alone in a negative way. TL;DR: People who kill other people are shit. Except it is not equal blame. It never was. If you run into a jungle with a machinegun and gun down a Gorilla, is that equal blame? Yes that Gorilla would probably kill you for intruding into his territory and if he somehow managed to get to you before being gunned down. But you came there and you control the situation with your machinegun. I am sorry for the crude comparison but that is exactly what is happening here. People with 100x more military power are bullying those without. They have more power to stop this and as a result more responsibility. If war continues they are more to blame than those that cannot do anything anyways. Israel if they wanted could kill everyone person in Palestine and nobody in Palestine could do shit about it, while Palestine could not do something similar in 0.000001% cases. Israel controls the situation and is mostly responsible. Allow me to ask you a question. My daughter Noga ( the hebrew name of the star venus, also meaning 'glow' ) was born in Israel a few months ago. I was born in Israel. My father was born in Israel. We've lived here for three generations, born here and lived here and will die here. My daughter, how did she "intrude" on someone else? She was simply born here, so was I.
if i remember correctly, religion preaches/teaches collective guilt based on an original or ancestral sin. the sin of the forefathers kind of thing. hell, even germans have their own wiki-guilt page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_collective_guilt.
do the 'simply born here' israelis, learn that they're at least trespassers there?. what do they learn in history classes?.
i find the notion that you get to own the land you're born on to pretty dangerous.
|
|
|
There are no good solutions, but the situation can be solved, it's just very politically difficult:
the UN arbitrates a solution, and keeps peacekeepers there to enforce it, and to ensure neither side attacks each other, for however long it takes (at least 50 years I reckon).
Much like a very bitter divorce, sometimes mediation cannot work, all you can do is arbitrate and keep the two parties apart by force.
|
On July 23 2014 21:47 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 21:40 AngryMag wrote:
A lot of shit gets talked in this thread. Words like "genocide" getting thrown around, immidiately making an eventual argument in the rest of the text worthless. If you plan a genocide and the population of the people you want to kill is steadily growing for some decades, well you might have gotten it wrong.
Since this exact thread gets made atleast once a year, depending on how often shit goes down in that area, I would just like to point out my opinion, basically unchanged from the last time such a thread was made:
There will never be peace between the Isrealis and the Palestinians. I think the final goal of the Israelis is it, to concentrate the Palestinians on the least amount of territory possible, while to Palestinians want to throw the Jews ointo the sea.
They will both pursue that goals until they achieve them, meaning Hamas and Co. will fight as long they have bombs, mortars and Kassams, the Arab world will make sure that they don't run our of supplies, and the Israelis will keep on fighting, regardless of international Echo, because in the end the Americans will always protect the Israelis from diplomatical or economical repercussions.
I don't think that we will see a solution to the conflict in my lifetime, I think the only solution is one of the parties involved winning. . If the current generation is not able to solve conflicts then the next generation has to try. "This conflict will never be solved" so lets just ignore it [that is how I understand your post] is an attitude I find highly questionnable: It takes away people's responsibility to try and solve the problem as it seemingly cannot be solved anyway. And obviously the two parties involved in this war need a lot of help from outside in solving this so I think a healthy discussion, as well as educating and informing people are the best thing everyone can do.
I hold the opinion that the outsiders in the conflict (supplying one side with weapons, logistics or whatever) are only following their own interests, which are not necessarily identical with the inerests of the conflict party they support.
If I take a look at the last years, I see that meddling in other countries affairs is not always succesful. US engagement in Iraq has turned Iraq into a bloodbowl. Some years ago the west debated whether it would be a good idea to send weaponry to Syria. Turkey thought so, armed Jihadists and now they are shitting themselves, because the Islamic State might turn itself against his former weapon supplier.
West also supported the new regime in the Ukraine, while Russia supports the "old" elites, now we might get into another civil war there. and thgis list could go on forever.
The point is that outside engagement often makes things worse, meddling into other countrie's affairs is in my opinion more often part of the problem and rarely part of the solution. This point also stands for the western support of Israel and the arabic support for palestine, they are part of the problem, not the solution, because they tend to attach their support with political agendas. If Hamas doesn't fight against Israel, the Saudis might very well cut off their support, so it won't happen etc.
Edit: I think we should concentrate on our own trouble before we get involved down there too much. In the last days we had the biggest openly anti-jewish demonstrations in the country since the end of WWII. Our politicians tried to downplay the significance of it, because the nazis involved were muslims lol. We should rather try to get these kind of idiots back into line, otherwise our immigration policy might bring the wars in the middle east right into our cities. That is the first problem we should try to solve instead of getting into everyone else's business.
|
On July 23 2014 21:56 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 21:31 IcemanAsi wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 -Archangel- wrote:On July 23 2014 20:45 Miragee wrote:On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. And I'm really ashamed about people calling everyone an anti-semite or a blind anti-american who criticises israelic actions. Really, in this case none of the two sides is better than the other. It's two parties killing each other for over half a century (laying appart the reasons). To be against that stupidity has nothing to do with being anti semitic because you aren't opposed to jewish people because they are jewish but because of their actions. Same goes for the hamas. Or am I an anti-islamic guy because I think the hamas acts just as stupid? If I'm an anti-semetic for calling israel out, I'm also certainly an anti-islamic. Surprisingly enough, I never get called that way, let alone in a negative way. TL;DR: People who kill other people are shit. Except it is not equal blame. It never was. If you run into a jungle with a machinegun and gun down a Gorilla, is that equal blame? Yes that Gorilla would probably kill you for intruding into his territory and if he somehow managed to get to you before being gunned down. But you came there and you control the situation with your machinegun. I am sorry for the crude comparison but that is exactly what is happening here. People with 100x more military power are bullying those without. They have more power to stop this and as a result more responsibility. If war continues they are more to blame than those that cannot do anything anyways. Israel if they wanted could kill everyone person in Palestine and nobody in Palestine could do shit about it, while Palestine could not do something similar in 0.000001% cases. Israel controls the situation and is mostly responsible. Allow me to ask you a question. My daughter Noga ( the hebrew name of the star venus, also meaning 'glow' ) was born in Israel a few months ago. I was born in Israel. My father was born in Israel. We've lived here for three generations, born here and lived here and will die here. My daughter, how did she "intrude" on someone else? She was simply born here, so was I. if i remember correctly, religion preaches/teaches collective guilt based on an original or ancestral sin. the sin of the forefathers kind of thing. hell, even germans have their own wiki-guilt page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_collective_guilt. do the 'simply born here' israelis, learn that they're at least trespassers there?. what do they learn in history classes?. i find the notion that you get to own the land you're born on to pretty dangerous.
The idea of citizenship is based on birth in almost all countries, it is almost always that simple.
You are a German citizen if you are the child of a German citizen.
I ask again, my daughter was born in Israel, as an Israeli citizen, in what way do you think of her as a trespasser?
In history classes, we learn history.
|
On July 23 2014 22:04 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 21:56 xM(Z wrote:On July 23 2014 21:31 IcemanAsi wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 -Archangel- wrote:On July 23 2014 20:45 Miragee wrote:On July 23 2014 10:24 Nyxisto wrote:
No. By the overwhelming majority of countries that are members of the UN (83%) Israel is a recognized state. And many of these acclaimed Israel-critics are called anti-Semitic, because they are in fact anti-Semitic. It's this new right thing where you say all the stuff right-wingers say but pretend like you're not one of them.
I'm really ashamed to see people chanting anti-Semitic shit in Berlin and seeing people setting synagogues on fire in France.
The only thing Israel occupies are the Golan heights. Israel itself is not considered an "occupying power". That's just plain wrong. And I'm really ashamed about people calling everyone an anti-semite or a blind anti-american who criticises israelic actions. Really, in this case none of the two sides is better than the other. It's two parties killing each other for over half a century (laying appart the reasons). To be against that stupidity has nothing to do with being anti semitic because you aren't opposed to jewish people because they are jewish but because of their actions. Same goes for the hamas. Or am I an anti-islamic guy because I think the hamas acts just as stupid? If I'm an anti-semetic for calling israel out, I'm also certainly an anti-islamic. Surprisingly enough, I never get called that way, let alone in a negative way. TL;DR: People who kill other people are shit. Except it is not equal blame. It never was. If you run into a jungle with a machinegun and gun down a Gorilla, is that equal blame? Yes that Gorilla would probably kill you for intruding into his territory and if he somehow managed to get to you before being gunned down. But you came there and you control the situation with your machinegun. I am sorry for the crude comparison but that is exactly what is happening here. People with 100x more military power are bullying those without. They have more power to stop this and as a result more responsibility. If war continues they are more to blame than those that cannot do anything anyways. Israel if they wanted could kill everyone person in Palestine and nobody in Palestine could do shit about it, while Palestine could not do something similar in 0.000001% cases. Israel controls the situation and is mostly responsible. Allow me to ask you a question. My daughter Noga ( the hebrew name of the star venus, also meaning 'glow' ) was born in Israel a few months ago. I was born in Israel. My father was born in Israel. We've lived here for three generations, born here and lived here and will die here. My daughter, how did she "intrude" on someone else? She was simply born here, so was I. if i remember correctly, religion preaches/teaches collective guilt based on an original or ancestral sin. the sin of the forefathers kind of thing. hell, even germans have their own wiki-guilt page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_collective_guilt. do the 'simply born here' israelis, learn that they're at least trespassers there?. what do they learn in history classes?. i find the notion that you get to own the land you're born on to pretty dangerous. The idea of citizenship is based on birth in almost all countries, it is almost always that simple. You are a German citizen if you are the child of a German citizen. I ask again, my daughter was born in Israel, as an Israeli citizen, in what way do you think of her as a trespasser? In history classes, we learn history.
I think what he's trying to point out is that it isn't right to inherit something that was someone else's possession.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
