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In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards. Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread. Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults. |
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On July 19 2014 02:51 Shortizz wrote: Not sure what these bannings are for. But most of the major news channels including malaysian ones seem to suggest that Ukranian rebels/separatists shot it down with weaponry provided by the Russians. If you are gonna ban everyone who post with the slightest hint of blame on russia, then im not sure why this thread exists in the first place.
PS: Its stupidly ridiculous that the black box was sent to moscow for investigation. It should either have been sent back to Malaysian Airlines or a neutral party.
Please use the designated thread in the mod note if you have any questions about our moderation policy in this thread.
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On July 19 2014 03:00 Enzymatic wrote:What I'm wondering is if the absence of any American deaths on that flight at all weighs into the extent of which Obama is willing to involve the U.S in all of this. And if it will make him more inclined to "keep his hands clean". I'm reading that the one on board was a dual-citizen with a dutch passport, and if the absence of numerous american deaths at all factors into how much he is willing to act.
Obama wouldn't do anything regardless. His whole presidency is based on pretending that no major crisis ever exists or needs dealt with.
User was warned for this post
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^ Thanks for that wonderful insight
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On July 19 2014 03:32 Aveng3r wrote: ^ Thanks for that wonderful insight
This happened precisely because Obama has done absolutely nothing to deter Russia in regards to the situation in Ukraine. This is what happens when you think things like monetary sanctions on random Russian aristocracy is going to change anything on the ground. The real tragedy here (well other than 300 innocents paying the ultimate price), is that these people paid the ultimate price for NOTHING because most likely nothing will be done in response to this catastrophe.
(this is an opinion post)
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In response to the posted tweet that OSCE monitors were shot at, the OSCE twitter denies this:
*** One of the last local leaders of the Pro-Russia militia resigns and leaves for Russia after the plane crash.
***
The crash investigation is already compromised:
+ Show Spoiler +Under normal circumstances, among the first to swarm a plane crash are trained professionals. Even under the best of conditions, they’re painstakingly methodical: They seal off the site to prevent tampering, videotape, examine, preserve parts of the wreckage and send bits off for analysis. They never know which part of a wing or fuselage might tell the tale, so every small find is crucial. But the circumstances of Thursday’s Malaysia Airlines plane crash were anything but normal. It was obvious from the moment a giant explosion sounded in eastern Ukraine, spawning smoke that billowed black across the horizon. Among the first to arrive on the scene weren’t first responders, clipboard-carrying inspectors or professionals trained to deal with such emergencies. They were off-duty coal miners and camera-toting locals, tromping through the wreckage, according to news reports. “I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang,” one local resident told Reuters. “Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke.” The site became the domain of souvenir seekers, children and amateur investigators, picking their way through the detritus of a terrible plane crash that claimed the lives of all 298 aboard. “This is a spine,” one gun-carrying man clad in tan camouflage said, according to New York Times footage. He pointed at the charred earth and remains. “A spine here. These are hands.” Others walked with their children. Some sprayed water everywhere. A few took pictures and video and uploaded it to YouTube. The chaos surrounding the wreck continued this morning amid an Associated Press report that the coal miners were still out there, combing through the wreckage. “It’s a contaminated site,” Mark Rosenker, the former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told CBS. “It’s absolutely horrible. Parts could be missing.” The compromised scene in a war zone further complicated an already difficult investigation with the gravest of implications. The sorry situation left foreign governments, from the White House to Canberra, Australia and Amsterdam, scrambling to get international teams to the site as quickly as possible. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was in discussions with separatist rebels Friday morning to secure both safe passage to the site and a truce between rebels and the Ukrainian government to facilitate an international investigation. The fact that everything about the crash is in dispute between feuding forces will, analysts said, make getting to the bottom of what happened even harder. At first, the separatists who rule the region allegedly wouldn’t even allow Ukrainian authorities to investigate the crash. Now, amid a deluge of denials, rebuttals, claims and misinformation, what has taken center stage in this feud of geopolitical import are the “black boxes.” And where, exactly, they may be. The AP reported early today that Ukraine rebels claimed to have two devices. Reuters reported one of its photographers saw one being taken from the crash scene. Who knows what’s true and what’s not. Made famous most recently in the last Malaysia Airlines saga, the so-called “black boxes” are nearly-indestructible cockpit voice and flight-data recorders most commercial airplanes carry so that in the event of an accident or crash investigators can study what went wrong. The devices have proven key to finding the cause of numerous crashes — and the party that controls them will be in the best position to determine what happened. Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the separatist militia called the South East Front, explained to Interfax that separatists have the black box and have handed it over to rebel-friendly authorities in eastern Ukraine. “They will engage in documentation and investigation of the incident,” he told Interfax. The Daily Beast reported a Russian radio station claimed the recorder has been “sent to Moscow for investigation.” Which is exactly what other countries don’t want. The Australian Foreign Affairs minister urged “the separatists to cooperate” in an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald: “If they have taken the black box, they need to return it immediately.” Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak agreed. “An international team must have full access to the crash site,” he said. “And no one should interfere with the area, or move any debris including the black box.” But much of the area has already been interfered with, and what some found there has been horrifying. Many of the bodies seem almost frozen in time, the New York Times noted. One woman wearing black was still raising her arm when discovered “as if signaling someone.” Another man — in socks but not pants — lay with his arm on his stomach “as if in repose.” Others wore their seat belts. And one man had his iPhone by his side. Scattered all about were other artifacts of daily life: toiletries, cologne, a bicycle. That’s why everyone should concentrate on “who is going to properly protect the evidence and do the job of handling the bodies,” James Hall, a former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told the Wall Street Journal. Though that hasn’t happened yet. As workers, policemen and coal miners sift through the remains this morning, little has emerged beyond rumor as to who may have shot down the plane and why. The situation needs “unimpeded international investigation as quickly as possible,” the White House said in a statement late Thursday. “We urge all concerned — Russia, the pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine — to support an immediate cease-fire in order to ensure safe and unfettered access to the crash site for international investigators and in order to facilitate the recovery of remains.” Source.*** US representative Samantha Power at the UNSC meeting today: Yesterday, we were all shocked by the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. All 298 people aboard – 283 passengers and 15 crew – were killed. As we stared at the passenger list yesterday we saw next to three of the passengers names a capital “I.” As we now know, the letter “I” stands for infant. To the families and friends of the victims, it is impossible to find words to express our condolences. We can only commit to you that we will not rest until we find out what happened. A full, credible, and unimpeded international investigation must begin immediately. The perpetrators must be brought to justice. They must not be sheltered by any member state of the United Nations. Let me share with you our assessment of the evidence so far. We assess Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 carrying these 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was likely downed by a surface-to-air missile, an SA-11, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine. The airliner was traveling at a cruise altitude of 33,000 feet and its speed was typical for an airliner along an established flight corridor frequented by commercial traffic. The flight was transmitting its assigned transponder code corresponding with its flight plan, and flight tracking data was publicly available on the internet. There was nothing threatening or provocative about MH17. Of the operational SAM systems located near the border, only the SA-11, SA-20, and SA-22 SAM systems are capable of hitting an aircraft at this flight’s altitude of 33,000 feet. We can rule out shorter-range SAMs known to be in separatist hands, including MANPADS, SA-8 and SA-13 systems, which are not capable of hitting an aircraft at this altitude Early Thursday, an SA-11 SAM system was reported near Snizhne by a Western reporter and separatists were spotted hours before the incident with an SA-11 system at a location close to the site where the plane came down. Separatists initially claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane and posted videos that are now being connected to the Malaysian airlines crash. Separatist leaders also boasted on social media about shooting down a plane, but later deleted these messages. Because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems. The Ukrainians do have SA-11 systems in their inventory. However, we are not aware of any Ukrainian SAM systems in the area of the shoot-down. And, more importantly, since the beginning of this crisis, Ukrainian air defenses have not fired a single missile, despite several alleged violations of their airspace by Russian aircraft. This also follows a pattern of actions by Russian-backed separatists. On June 13th, separatists shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, carrying 40 paratroopers and nine crew. On June 24th, as this Council was meeting to welcome Ukraine’s unilateral ceasefire, we received word that separatists downed a Ukrainian helicopter, killing all nine on board. On July 14th, separatists claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian military cargo plane, flying at 6,000 meters, and on July 16, they claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian fighter jet. If indeed Russian-backed separatists were behind this attack on a civilian airliner, they and their backers would have good reason to cover up evidence of their crime. Thus, it is extremely important that an investigation be commenced immediately. In the first instance, the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission should act as a first responder, laying the foundation for efforts by other international organizations and individual nations including those whose citizens who were victims of this tragedy. Yesterday, President Obama assured Ukraine’s President Poroshenko that U.S. experts will offer all possible assistance upon his request. President Poroshenko has invited the independent and credible International Civil Aviation Organization to join an investigation. International investigators must be granted immediate, full, and unfettered access to the crash site. All those concerned – Russia, pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine – should agree to support an immediate ceasefire to facilitate access by international investigators. In this regard, we look to the SMM also to reach agreement with separatists and others in the region to make this possible. All evidence must remain undisturbed, and any evidence removed from the site by the Russian-backed separatists operating in the area should be promptly returned and handed over. Russia needs to help make this happen. While it may take us some time to firmly establish who shot down a plane filled with innocents, most Council members and most members of the international community have been warning for months about the devastation that would come if Russia did not stop what it started, if it did not reign in what it unleashed. The context for yesterday’s horror is clear: separatist forces – backed by the Russian government – continue to destabilize Ukraine and undermine the efforts of Ukraine’s elected leaders to build a democratic Ukraine that is stable, unified, secure, and able to determine its own future. Russia says that it seeks peace in Ukraine, but we have repeatedly provided this Council with evidence of Russia’s continued support to the separatists. Time after time, we have called on the Russian government to de-escalate the situation, by stopping the flow of fighters and weapons into Ukraine, pressing separatists to agree to a cease-fire and release all hostages, and support a roadmap for negotiations. Time after time, President Putin has committed to working towards dialogue and peace: in Geneva in April, in Normandy in June, and in Berlin earlier this month. And every single time, he has broken that commitment. Here is what we know: In the last few weeks, Russia has increased the number of tanks, armored vehicles, and rocket launchers in southwest Russia. More advanced air defense systems have also arrived. Moscow has recently transferred Soviet-era tanks and artillery to the separatists and several military vehicles crossed the border. After recapturing several Ukrainian cities last weekend, Ukrainian officials discovered caches of weapons long associated with Russia stockpiles, including MANPADS, mines, grenades, MREs, vehicles, and a pontoon bridge. Ukrainian forces have discovered large amounts of other Russian-provided military equipment, including accompanying documentation verifying the Russian origin, in the areas that they have liberated from separatists in recent days. Recruiting efforts for separatist fighters are expanding inside Russia and separatists have openly said that they are looking for volunteers with experience operating heavy weapons such as tanks and air defenses. Russia has allowed officials from the “Donetsk Peoples’ Republic” to establish a recruiting office in Moscow. Ukrainian pilot Nadiya Savchenko, who has long had a distinguished career in the Ukrainian military, was taken by separatists in mid-June. She is now being held – where? - in a prison in Voronezh, Russia. According to the Ukrainian government, she was transferred to Russia by separatists. Russia continues to redeploy new forces extremely close to the Ukrainian border. In addition, this past Monday, a Ukrainian Air Force cargo plane was shot down in Ukrainian airspace; and on Wednesday, a Ukrainian fighter jet was also shot down in Ukrainian airspace. In both instances, the Ukrainian government believes that these planes were fired on from Russian territory. It is because of these continued destabilizing Russian actions that the United States imposed sanctions on the defense, energy, and financial sectors of the Russian economy—including financial institutions. These measures include freezing the assets of Russian defense companies and blocking new financing of some of Russia’s most important banks and energy companies. These sanctions are significant, but they are also targeted – designed to have the maximum impact on the Russian calculus while limiting the impact on the Russian people and limiting any spillover effects on our interests or those of our allies. The European Union has also announced expanded sanctions against Russia this week. The message is unified and clear: If President Putin continues to choose escalation over de-escalation, the international community will continue to impose costs on Russia. But this is not what any of us want. We and our allies remain committed to a diplomatic solution, as are the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian people, who have seen their neighbors, friends, and family members killed in a needless conflict. President Poroshenko has consistently backed up his words with actions. He proposed a comprehensive peace plan and declared a unilateral ceasefire, both of which were cynically rejected by the illegal armed groups and their backers in Moscow. President Poroshenko’s plan offered amnesty to separatists who lay down their arms voluntarily, and who are not guilty of capital crimes. He committed to providing a safe corridor for Russian fighters to return to Russia; he established a job creation program for the affected areas; included an offer of broad decentralization and dialogue with eastern regions, including the promise of early local elections; and granted increased local control over language, holidays, and customs. President Poroshenko also has reached out to the residents of eastern Ukraine and is pursuing constitutional reform which will give local regions more authority to choose their regional leaders and protect locally-spoken languages. He has said he will meet with separatist at any safe location inside or outside of Ukraine. The United States’ goal throughout the crisis in Ukraine has been consistent: to support a stable, peaceful, and democratic Ukraine. We will not be satisfied with a temporary halt to violence. Russia must stop destabilizing Ukraine, and allow all of the people of Ukraine to decide their country’s future through a democratic political process. As we sit here, the remains of nearly 300 people – of innocent infants, children, women, and men – are strewn across a blackened, smoldering landscape in Ukraine. Those victims came from at least nine different nations. They could just as easily have come from any of ours. We must treat all of them as our own victims. We have a duty to each and every one of those individuals, their families, and their countries to determine why that jet fell out of the sky and to hold the perpetrators accountable. We must stop at nothing to bring those responsible to justice. This appalling attack occurred in the context of a crisis that has been fueled by Russian support for separatists -- through arms, weapons, and training -- and by the Russian failure to follow through on its commitments and by its failure to adhere to the fundamental principles of the UN Charter. This tragedy only underscores the urgency and determination with which we insist that Russia immediately take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine, support a sustainable cease-fire, and follow the path toward peace that the Ukrainian government has consistently offered. This war can be ended. Russia can end this war. Russia must end this war. Source. *** Overview article of all the events as of 18.07: + Show Spoiler +President Obama said Friday that a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying nearly 300 people, including at least one U.S. citizen, was evidently shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. In a White House news conference a day after the Boeing 777 crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Obama stopped short of saying who fired the missile or directly blaming Russia for the deaths, which he called “an outrage of unspeakable proportions.” But he said the separatists “have received a steady flow of support from Russia,” including heavy arms, training and antiaircraft weapons. Pointing to rebel claims to have shot down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks, including a Ukrainian fighter jet, Obama said it was “not possible for these separatists to function the way they’re functioning . . . without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.” Russian President Vladimir Putin “has the most control over that situation, and so far at least, he has not exercised it,” Obama said. He spoke after U.S. officials disclosed a preliminary intelligence assessment indicating that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was likely shot down by pro-Russian separatists with an SA-11 missile. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that was previously identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner. As emergency workers continue to search for victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 after it was shot down near the Russian border, world leaders are calling for a cease-fire in Ukraine. (AP) In public statements, senior members of the administration from the president down did not specify the perpetrators of the shootdown, although they made it clear that the rebels are the likeliest suspects. Because of the “technical complexity” of the Russian-made surface-to-air missile system, “it is impossible to rule out Russian technical assistance” to the separatists in operating it, Samantha Power , the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told the U.N. Security Council earlier Friday. Separately, military and intelligence officials said Friday that the United States has gathered a significant body of evidence that Ukrainian separatists have been trained on Russian territory in recent weeks to fire antiaircraft missiles. Obama identified the American victim on the plane as Quinn Lucas Schansman, a dual U.S.-Dutch national who reportedly lived in Amsterdam. He called for “a credible international investigation” into the tragedy and urged Russia to cooperate with it. As the shootdown sent the Ukraine war into the realm of international crisis, Obama called it a “global tragedy,” saying that “it is not going to be localized; it is not going to be contained.” He joined calls for an international investigation and said investigators from the FBI and National Transportation Safety Board have already been dispatched. At an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting Friday morning, Power was much more direct in holding Russia responsible for the shootdown, detailing the volume of weapons and other assistance that Moscow has provided to the separatists. “Russia can end this war,” she said. “Russia must end this war.” Among the 298 victims, Power said, were 80 children and three listed on the passenger manifest as infants. In response, Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin did not directly address charges that Moscow bears responsibility and was complicit in the missile attack. Agreeing that an international investigation is needed, Churkin criticized those who he said are “trying to prejudge the outcome with broad statements and insinuations,” and he accused the Ukrainian government of failing to warn international aviation to avoid the conflict area in eastern Ukraine. “Why did Ukrainian aviation dispatchers send [the Malaysian plane] to an area of strife, where there were antiaircraft systems in operation?” he asked. By continuing its military offensive to dislodge the separatists, Ukraine “chose the wrong path, and their Western colleagues supported them,” Churkin said. “I’m talking about the United States; they actually pushed them to escalate,” he said, and now “they are trying to lay the blame on Russia.” Britain, which lost nine citizens in the crash and called for the emergency Security Council meeting, demanded an independent international investigation. “The immediate priority has to be for investigators to gain access to the crash site,” British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant said. “There must be no interfering or tampering with the evidence.” As the council session continued, and before any Russian response, most representatives concentrated on the need for an immediate cease-fire in eastern Ukraine and an independent probe. Many indirectly accused Russia of responsibility for the separatists’ actions, although China cautioned member nations not to “jump to any conclusions . . . or trade accusations.” Speaking later in the White House briefing room, Obama said it was “too early for us to be able to guess what the intentions were of those who might have launched” the missile. “What we know right now, what we have confidence in saying right now, is that a surface-to-air missile was fired, and this is what brought the jet down. . . . That shot was taken within territory that was controlled by the Russian-backed separatists.” The identities of “what individuals or groups of personnel ordered” the strike, he said, are “still subject to additional information that we’re going to be gathering.” But after months of conflict in Ukraine, the shootdown should “snap everyone’s head” to action, he said. “We don’t have time for propaganda; we don’t have time for games.” “Time and again, Russia has refused to take the concrete steps necessary to de-escalate the situation,” Obama said. At least in public, the leaders of Germany, France and Britain expressed outrage over the downing of the airliner but were careful not to rush to judgment or publicly accuse Russia. Countries in the region considered more hawkish on Russia, however, were more willing to assign blame. “We are concerned over press reports that the Ukrainian side has captured phone conversation recordings indicating that pro-Russian separatists might be responsible for shooting the plane down,” the Polish Foreign Ministry said in a statement. The leaders of Britain and Germany were more cautious. “We have some information, but we need to find more information,” said British Prime Minister David Cameron. He called for an proper international investigation but added, “until we know more, it’s not really possible to say more.” German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday pressed Russia to work harder toward a political solution in the Ukrainian conflict. But she also drew a line between the Russians and the separatists. “We’re assuming that the Russian president of course has an influence on Russian separatists,” Merkel told reporters in Berlin. “But still one has to differentiate between the separatists and the Russian government.” On Wednesday, both the United States and European Union slapped new sanctions on Russia, but the European moves were significantly less stinging. Suggesting Friday that she was in no rush to go further, Merkel called Wednesday’s move “an adequate response to what happened in the past few days.” But she also noted that the E.U. decision had left open the door to “act on a new level” if necessary. As the day wore on, and particularly after the Security Council meeting, the rhetoric grew somewhat harsher. “Those who are responsible for this would forfeit their right to claim their own concerns in the name of humanity,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in Mexico City. European governments have been more reluctant than the Americans to slap tougher sanctions on the Russians largely due to Moscow’s economic clout in the region. Should the pro-Russian separatists — with the direct or indirect aid of Russia — ultimately be proven responsible for the strike, analysts said the calculations in the region might change. Countries including Italy and Spain that have generally opposed strict measures will find it tougher to do so. Larger powers have shown a willingness to press the Russians, while acting at the same time to safeguard certain sectors of their domestic economies — finance in Britain, energy in Germany, military manufacturing in France — where the Russians remain influential. But they may be more willing to go out on a limb if the Russians are linked even indirectly to the shootdown. “It’s a game-changer because it’s very difficult to see how anyone in Europe can continue as business as usual,” said Jonathan Eyal, director of international security studies at the Royal United Services Institute in London. “This time we have our own European casualties. It’s not a theoretical conflict in which people we do not know are dying.” Yet other analysts insisted that the desire of the Europeans to sidestep truly forceful sanctions to protect their economies should not be underestimated. Just as vital to their calculations, analysts said, will be a desire not to take steps that could dramatically ratchet up tensions and prompt the Russians to respond by cutting off important energy supplies to the region. “How Europe reacts, we don’t know. It could go either way,” said Andrew Wilson, senior policy fellow in the London office of the European Council on Foreign Relations. Jakov Devcic, deputy bureau chief of the Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Kiev, a group associated with Merkel’s CDU party, said that in Europe, as in the United States, military intervention remained ruled out. But if the rebels are found to have filed the missile, Germany and the E.U. will consider further sanctions, including import bans on luxury goods and, as a second step, moves targeting Russian financial transactions. The U.S. intelligence assessment that rebels were responsible for the shootdown came as Ukrainian leaders stepped up their condemnation of Russia over the crash, calling for Moscow to be held accountable for allegedly supplying the missile system that they said was used by the rebels in eastern Ukraine. “This is a crime against humanity,” Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said, as he called for swift international justice. “All red lines have been already crossed. . . . We ask our international partners to call an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting and to [do] everything we can to stop this war: a war against Ukraine, a war against Europe, and after these terrorists shot down a Malaysian aircraft, this is a war against the world.” Yatsenyuk added: “Everyone is to be accountable and responsible. I mean everyone who supports these terrorists, including Russians and the Russian regime.” Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, addressing the nation early Friday, also blamed pro-Russian separatists and those he called their Russian masters for the downing of the Boeing 777 with 298 passengers and crew on board. The victims included “nearly 100 researchers and advocates” who were en route from Amsterdam via Kuala Lumpur to attend an AIDS conference in Australia, Obama said. “They were taken from us in a senseless act of violence,” he said. AIDS conference organizers have confirmed only seven names and said they think the number of people flying to the conference on the Malaysian flight could be much lower than 100. “War has gone beyond the territory of Ukraine,” Poroshenko said earlier. “Consequences of this war have already reached the whole world.” Russia and the separatists both denied any responsibility for the shootdown, pinning the blame instead on the Ukrainian government. But Poroshenko said recordings of what the Ukraine Security Service described as intercepted phone conversations between separatist rebels and Russian intelligence officials implicated them in the shootdown. The Security Service released new recordings Friday in which it said rebels discussed possessing and moving the Russian-made Buk missile launcher that Ukraine says shot down the airliner. The Ukrainian government released video purporting to show rebels moving a Buk antiaircraft missile system to the Russian border Friday from eastern Ukraine. The government claimed that the missile-launcher was missing one of its missiles. Neither the claims nor the authenticity of the video could be independently verified. Russia pushed back Friday, accusing Poroshenko of poisoning efforts to investigate the crash. A rebel leader on Thursday had briefly claimed responsibility for downing a plane that he described as a Ukrainian military aircraft. Soon after it was established that a commercial airliner had been shot down, the claim was removed. Ukraine’s top intelligence official said Friday that the plane crash was being investigated as a criminal case under Ukraine’s terrorism laws. Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, head of the Ukraine Security Service, said Ukraine now believes that the Boeing 777 was shot down by rebel forces using a Buk antiaircraft missile launcher that had recently been moved over the border from Russia. He said Ukraine has detained two Russian citizens who allegedly helped bring the missile launcher into Ukraine. Ukrainian intelligence services also observed rebels trying to move back into Russia a Buk launcher that had fired two missiles, he added. It was not immediately possible to independently verify the claims. “The terrorists are trying to hide the crime,” Nalyvaichenko said. The Ukraine Security Service on Friday released a second series of recordings of what it said were intercepted phone calls between pro-Russian separatists over the last few days, in which the voices describe being in possession of and moving the Buk missile launcher. In the first conversation, which the Security Service said took place on July 14, an alleged rebel called “Oleg” said he missed a plane flying above a village. “We already have the Buk,” a woman identified as “Oreon” told him. “We’ll be knocking it down.” The Security Service said that on additional tapes from July 17, rebels discuss moving the Buk launcher. “Where do we ship this beauty to, Nikolayevich?” asked an alleged rebel identified by the Security Service as “Buryat.” “It’s not necessary to hide it anywhere,” came the reply. The rebel identified as Nikolayevich, also known as “Khmuri,” also talked about stocks of other weapons and the rebels’ relationship with the Russians at one point. “The thing is, we have Grads, but no spotters,” he said, referring to the mobile, Russian-made multiple rocket launcher. “We are waiting. Supposedly Russia should strike from that side at their positions.” In recent months, the rebels have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using short-range surface-to-air missiles. Experts said such missiles probably could not reach a plane flying at 33,000 feet, the reported altitude of Flight 17. But Ukrainian authorities have said the rebels recently obtained Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missiles — a complex system using ground radar to guide a missile to its target. Experts said it requires expertise and training to operate. In Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Friday that the international community could not expect Russia to get the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine to lay down their arms. But Lavrov said he hoped that the OSCE would send monitors to the Russian-Ukrainian border before the end of the week. In an interview with Rossiya-24 television, he added that Russia was ready to guarantee the safety of those observers at Russia’s own border checkpoints but could make no promises about keeping them safe from bombardments from Ukraine, Interfax reported. Lavrov also accused Poroshenko of potentially poisoning the investigation of the plane crash by calling for a commission to look into it while also declaring it an act of terrorism. “Of course, attempts to claim that this was a terrorist act, so the Ukrainian researchers will be guided by this in their work — this is unacceptable, this pressure on the acts of the this commission,” Lavrov said. In an effort to cooperate with international investigations, Lavrov said, Russia would not accept the black box that rebels said they had recovered from the plane. “We are not going to take away these boxes,” he said. “We are not going to violate the rules existing with regard to this sort of cases within the international community.” Aleksey Komarov, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry, called for “a thorough investigation with the use of representatives from all the interested international organizations.” He alleged that, according to the information available to the Russians, a Ukrainian military Buk-M1 type air defense system capable of bringing down the jet as it cruised at 33,000 feet was stationed in the area near the crash. “Ukrainian Air Force planes armed with various types of missiles are constantly present in the Donetsk region airspace,” he said on Rossiya 24 TV. “This is an indisputable fact.” He said Kiev’s claims that these systems or planes did not shoot at airborne targets “raise serious doubts.” He added that “planes of the Russian Air Force did not fly in Russian regions bordering the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014.” The Ukrainians, however, have cited the purported intercepts and conflicting claims by the pro-Russian rebels, who have been operating with tactical Russian assistance, as evidence of their guilt. In recent days, the rebels, who have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using shorter-range missiles, claimed to have obtained more advanced antiaircraft missile systems. “Evidence and information we have as of now confirm that it was pro-Russian groups, and unfortunately this tragedy took the lives of 298 people,” Ihor Dolhov, Ukraine’s ambassador to NATO, told the BBC. Sergei Kavtaradze, a representative of the separatist militias, told Interfax on Friday that the purported recordings of intercepted phone calls amounted to “unprofessional propaganda.” Faiola reported from Berlin. Craig Whitlock, William Branigin, Ernesto Londoño, David Beard, Ashley Halsey III and Katie Zezima in Washington; Karoun Demirjian in Moscow; Griff Witte in London; Ferry Biedermann in Amsterdam; and Annie Gowen in Kuala Lampur contributed to this report. Source.
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The shots werent aimed at the OSCE, the shots were fired as warnings as reported by the guardian reporter who was literally there to witness it. The amount of mental and verbal gymnastics Russians perform is really astounding on the issue.
Bethany Bell BBC News The Swiss Ambassador to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe [OSCE], Thomas Greminger, says that OSCE monitors were only given limited access to the plane crash site in Ukraine. He says they were stopped by local illegal armed groups. Switzerland currently holds the chairmanship of the OSCE and is spearheading diplomatic efforts.
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On July 19 2014 03:46 Ghanburighan wrote:In response to the posted tweet that OSCE monitors were shot at, the OSCE twitter denies this: https://twitter.com/osce_ru/status/490195983226404864+ Show Spoiler +*** One of the last local leaders of the Pro-Russia militia resigns and leaves for Russia after the plane crash. https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490185002395922432*** The crash investigation is already compromised: Under normal circumstances, among the first to swarm a plane crash are trained professionals. Even under the best of conditions, they’re painstakingly methodical: They seal off the site to prevent tampering, videotape, examine, preserve parts of the wreckage and send bits off for analysis. They never know which part of a wing or fuselage might tell the tale, so every small find is crucial. But the circumstances of Thursday’s Malaysia Airlines plane crash were anything but normal. It was obvious from the moment a giant explosion sounded in eastern Ukraine, spawning smoke that billowed black across the horizon. Among the first to arrive on the scene weren’t first responders, clipboard-carrying inspectors or professionals trained to deal with such emergencies. They were off-duty coal miners and camera-toting locals, tromping through the wreckage, according to news reports. “I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang,” one local resident told Reuters. “Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke.” The site became the domain of souvenir seekers, children and amateur investigators, picking their way through the detritus of a terrible plane crash that claimed the lives of all 298 aboard. “This is a spine,” one gun-carrying man clad in tan camouflage said, according to New York Times footage. He pointed at the charred earth and remains. “A spine here. These are hands.” Others walked with their children. Some sprayed water everywhere. A few took pictures and video and uploaded it to YouTube. The chaos surrounding the wreck continued this morning amid an Associated Press report that the coal miners were still out there, combing through the wreckage. “It’s a contaminated site,” Mark Rosenker, the former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told CBS. “It’s absolutely horrible. Parts could be missing.” The compromised scene in a war zone further complicated an already difficult investigation with the gravest of implications. The sorry situation left foreign governments, from the White House to Canberra, Australia and Amsterdam, scrambling to get international teams to the site as quickly as possible. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was in discussions with separatist rebels Friday morning to secure both safe passage to the site and a truce between rebels and the Ukrainian government to facilitate an international investigation. The fact that everything about the crash is in dispute between feuding forces will, analysts said, make getting to the bottom of what happened even harder. At first, the separatists who rule the region allegedly wouldn’t even allow Ukrainian authorities to investigate the crash. Now, amid a deluge of denials, rebuttals, claims and misinformation, what has taken center stage in this feud of geopolitical import are the “black boxes.” And where, exactly, they may be. The AP reported early today that Ukraine rebels claimed to have two devices. Reuters reported one of its photographers saw one being taken from the crash scene. Who knows what’s true and what’s not. Made famous most recently in the last Malaysia Airlines saga, the so-called “black boxes” are nearly-indestructible cockpit voice and flight-data recorders most commercial airplanes carry so that in the event of an accident or crash investigators can study what went wrong. The devices have proven key to finding the cause of numerous crashes — and the party that controls them will be in the best position to determine what happened. Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the separatist militia called the South East Front, explained to Interfax that separatists have the black box and have handed it over to rebel-friendly authorities in eastern Ukraine. “They will engage in documentation and investigation of the incident,” he told Interfax. The Daily Beast reported a Russian radio station claimed the recorder has been “sent to Moscow for investigation.” Which is exactly what other countries don’t want. The Australian Foreign Affairs minister urged “the separatists to cooperate” in an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald: “If they have taken the black box, they need to return it immediately.” Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak agreed. “An international team must have full access to the crash site,” he said. “And no one should interfere with the area, or move any debris including the black box.” But much of the area has already been interfered with, and what some found there has been horrifying. Many of the bodies seem almost frozen in time, the New York Times noted. One woman wearing black was still raising her arm when discovered “as if signaling someone.” Another man — in socks but not pants — lay with his arm on his stomach “as if in repose.” Others wore their seat belts. And one man had his iPhone by his side. Scattered all about were other artifacts of daily life: toiletries, cologne, a bicycle. That’s why everyone should concentrate on “who is going to properly protect the evidence and do the job of handling the bodies,” James Hall, a former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told the Wall Street Journal. Though that hasn’t happened yet. As workers, policemen and coal miners sift through the remains this morning, little has emerged beyond rumor as to who may have shot down the plane and why. The situation needs “unimpeded international investigation as quickly as possible,” the White House said in a statement late Thursday. “We urge all concerned — Russia, the pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine — to support an immediate cease-fire in order to ensure safe and unfettered access to the crash site for international investigators and in order to facilitate the recovery of remains.” Source.*** US representative Samantha Power at the UNSC meeting today: Yesterday, we were all shocked by the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. All 298 people aboard – 283 passengers and 15 crew – were killed. As we stared at the passenger list yesterday we saw next to three of the passengers names a capital “I.” As we now know, the letter “I” stands for infant. To the families and friends of the victims, it is impossible to find words to express our condolences. We can only commit to you that we will not rest until we find out what happened. A full, credible, and unimpeded international investigation must begin immediately. The perpetrators must be brought to justice. They must not be sheltered by any member state of the United Nations. Let me share with you our assessment of the evidence so far. We assess Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 carrying these 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was likely downed by a surface-to-air missile, an SA-11, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine. The airliner was traveling at a cruise altitude of 33,000 feet and its speed was typical for an airliner along an established flight corridor frequented by commercial traffic. The flight was transmitting its assigned transponder code corresponding with its flight plan, and flight tracking data was publicly available on the internet. There was nothing threatening or provocative about MH17. Of the operational SAM systems located near the border, only the SA-11, SA-20, and SA-22 SAM systems are capable of hitting an aircraft at this flight’s altitude of 33,000 feet. We can rule out shorter-range SAMs known to be in separatist hands, including MANPADS, SA-8 and SA-13 systems, which are not capable of hitting an aircraft at this altitude Early Thursday, an SA-11 SAM system was reported near Snizhne by a Western reporter and separatists were spotted hours before the incident with an SA-11 system at a location close to the site where the plane came down. Separatists initially claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane and posted videos that are now being connected to the Malaysian airlines crash. Separatist leaders also boasted on social media about shooting down a plane, but later deleted these messages. Because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems. The Ukrainians do have SA-11 systems in their inventory. However, we are not aware of any Ukrainian SAM systems in the area of the shoot-down. And, more importantly, since the beginning of this crisis, Ukrainian air defenses have not fired a single missile, despite several alleged violations of their airspace by Russian aircraft. This also follows a pattern of actions by Russian-backed separatists. On June 13th, separatists shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, carrying 40 paratroopers and nine crew. On June 24th, as this Council was meeting to welcome Ukraine’s unilateral ceasefire, we received word that separatists downed a Ukrainian helicopter, killing all nine on board. On July 14th, separatists claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian military cargo plane, flying at 6,000 meters, and on July 16, they claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian fighter jet. If indeed Russian-backed separatists were behind this attack on a civilian airliner, they and their backers would have good reason to cover up evidence of their crime. Thus, it is extremely important that an investigation be commenced immediately. In the first instance, the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission should act as a first responder, laying the foundation for efforts by other international organizations and individual nations including those whose citizens who were victims of this tragedy. Yesterday, President Obama assured Ukraine’s President Poroshenko that U.S. experts will offer all possible assistance upon his request. President Poroshenko has invited the independent and credible International Civil Aviation Organization to join an investigation. International investigators must be granted immediate, full, and unfettered access to the crash site. All those concerned – Russia, pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine – should agree to support an immediate ceasefire to facilitate access by international investigators. In this regard, we look to the SMM also to reach agreement with separatists and others in the region to make this possible. All evidence must remain undisturbed, and any evidence removed from the site by the Russian-backed separatists operating in the area should be promptly returned and handed over. Russia needs to help make this happen. While it may take us some time to firmly establish who shot down a plane filled with innocents, most Council members and most members of the international community have been warning for months about the devastation that would come if Russia did not stop what it started, if it did not reign in what it unleashed. The context for yesterday’s horror is clear: separatist forces – backed by the Russian government – continue to destabilize Ukraine and undermine the efforts of Ukraine’s elected leaders to build a democratic Ukraine that is stable, unified, secure, and able to determine its own future. Russia says that it seeks peace in Ukraine, but we have repeatedly provided this Council with evidence of Russia’s continued support to the separatists. Time after time, we have called on the Russian government to de-escalate the situation, by stopping the flow of fighters and weapons into Ukraine, pressing separatists to agree to a cease-fire and release all hostages, and support a roadmap for negotiations. Time after time, President Putin has committed to working towards dialogue and peace: in Geneva in April, in Normandy in June, and in Berlin earlier this month. And every single time, he has broken that commitment. Here is what we know: In the last few weeks, Russia has increased the number of tanks, armored vehicles, and rocket launchers in southwest Russia. More advanced air defense systems have also arrived. Moscow has recently transferred Soviet-era tanks and artillery to the separatists and several military vehicles crossed the border. After recapturing several Ukrainian cities last weekend, Ukrainian officials discovered caches of weapons long associated with Russia stockpiles, including MANPADS, mines, grenades, MREs, vehicles, and a pontoon bridge. Ukrainian forces have discovered large amounts of other Russian-provided military equipment, including accompanying documentation verifying the Russian origin, in the areas that they have liberated from separatists in recent days. Recruiting efforts for separatist fighters are expanding inside Russia and separatists have openly said that they are looking for volunteers with experience operating heavy weapons such as tanks and air defenses. Russia has allowed officials from the “Donetsk Peoples’ Republic” to establish a recruiting office in Moscow. Ukrainian pilot Nadiya Savchenko, who has long had a distinguished career in the Ukrainian military, was taken by separatists in mid-June. She is now being held – where? - in a prison in Voronezh, Russia. According to the Ukrainian government, she was transferred to Russia by separatists. Russia continues to redeploy new forces extremely close to the Ukrainian border. In addition, this past Monday, a Ukrainian Air Force cargo plane was shot down in Ukrainian airspace; and on Wednesday, a Ukrainian fighter jet was also shot down in Ukrainian airspace. In both instances, the Ukrainian government believes that these planes were fired on from Russian territory. It is because of these continued destabilizing Russian actions that the United States imposed sanctions on the defense, energy, and financial sectors of the Russian economy—including financial institutions. These measures include freezing the assets of Russian defense companies and blocking new financing of some of Russia’s most important banks and energy companies. These sanctions are significant, but they are also targeted – designed to have the maximum impact on the Russian calculus while limiting the impact on the Russian people and limiting any spillover effects on our interests or those of our allies. The European Union has also announced expanded sanctions against Russia this week. The message is unified and clear: If President Putin continues to choose escalation over de-escalation, the international community will continue to impose costs on Russia. But this is not what any of us want. We and our allies remain committed to a diplomatic solution, as are the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian people, who have seen their neighbors, friends, and family members killed in a needless conflict. President Poroshenko has consistently backed up his words with actions. He proposed a comprehensive peace plan and declared a unilateral ceasefire, both of which were cynically rejected by the illegal armed groups and their backers in Moscow. President Poroshenko’s plan offered amnesty to separatists who lay down their arms voluntarily, and who are not guilty of capital crimes. He committed to providing a safe corridor for Russian fighters to return to Russia; he established a job creation program for the affected areas; included an offer of broad decentralization and dialogue with eastern regions, including the promise of early local elections; and granted increased local control over language, holidays, and customs. President Poroshenko also has reached out to the residents of eastern Ukraine and is pursuing constitutional reform which will give local regions more authority to choose their regional leaders and protect locally-spoken languages. He has said he will meet with separatist at any safe location inside or outside of Ukraine. The United States’ goal throughout the crisis in Ukraine has been consistent: to support a stable, peaceful, and democratic Ukraine. We will not be satisfied with a temporary halt to violence. Russia must stop destabilizing Ukraine, and allow all of the people of Ukraine to decide their country’s future through a democratic political process. As we sit here, the remains of nearly 300 people – of innocent infants, children, women, and men – are strewn across a blackened, smoldering landscape in Ukraine. Those victims came from at least nine different nations. They could just as easily have come from any of ours. We must treat all of them as our own victims. We have a duty to each and every one of those individuals, their families, and their countries to determine why that jet fell out of the sky and to hold the perpetrators accountable. We must stop at nothing to bring those responsible to justice. This appalling attack occurred in the context of a crisis that has been fueled by Russian support for separatists -- through arms, weapons, and training -- and by the Russian failure to follow through on its commitments and by its failure to adhere to the fundamental principles of the UN Charter. This tragedy only underscores the urgency and determination with which we insist that Russia immediately take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine, support a sustainable cease-fire, and follow the path toward peace that the Ukrainian government has consistently offered. This war can be ended. Russia can end this war. Russia must end this war. Source.*** President Obama said Friday that a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying nearly 300 people, including at least one U.S. citizen, was evidently shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. In a White House news conference a day after the Boeing 777 crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Obama stopped short of saying who fired the missile or directly blaming Russia for the deaths, which he called “an outrage of unspeakable proportions.” But he said the separatists “have received a steady flow of support from Russia,” including heavy arms, training and antiaircraft weapons. Pointing to rebel claims to have shot down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks, including a Ukrainian fighter jet, Obama said it was “not possible for these separatists to function the way they’re functioning . . . without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.” Russian President Vladimir Putin “has the most control over that situation, and so far at least, he has not exercised it,” Obama said. He spoke after U.S. officials disclosed a preliminary intelligence assessment indicating that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was likely shot down by pro-Russian separatists with an SA-11 missile. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that was previously identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner. As emergency workers continue to search for victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 after it was shot down near the Russian border, world leaders are calling for a cease-fire in Ukraine. (AP) In public statements, senior members of the administration from the president down did not specify the perpetrators of the shootdown, although they made it clear that the rebels are the likeliest suspects. Because of the “technical complexity” of the Russian-made surface-to-air missile system, “it is impossible to rule out Russian technical assistance” to the separatists in operating it, Samantha Power , the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told the U.N. Security Council earlier Friday. Separately, military and intelligence officials said Friday that the United States has gathered a significant body of evidence that Ukrainian separatists have been trained on Russian territory in recent weeks to fire antiaircraft missiles. Obama identified the American victim on the plane as Quinn Lucas Schansman, a dual U.S.-Dutch national who reportedly lived in Amsterdam. He called for “a credible international investigation” into the tragedy and urged Russia to cooperate with it. As the shootdown sent the Ukraine war into the realm of international crisis, Obama called it a “global tragedy,” saying that “it is not going to be localized; it is not going to be contained.” He joined calls for an international investigation and said investigators from the FBI and National Transportation Safety Board have already been dispatched. At an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting Friday morning, Power was much more direct in holding Russia responsible for the shootdown, detailing the volume of weapons and other assistance that Moscow has provided to the separatists. “Russia can end this war,” she said. “Russia must end this war.” Among the 298 victims, Power said, were 80 children and three listed on the passenger manifest as infants. In response, Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin did not directly address charges that Moscow bears responsibility and was complicit in the missile attack. Agreeing that an international investigation is needed, Churkin criticized those who he said are “trying to prejudge the outcome with broad statements and insinuations,” and he accused the Ukrainian government of failing to warn international aviation to avoid the conflict area in eastern Ukraine. “Why did Ukrainian aviation dispatchers send [the Malaysian plane] to an area of strife, where there were antiaircraft systems in operation?” he asked. By continuing its military offensive to dislodge the separatists, Ukraine “chose the wrong path, and their Western colleagues supported them,” Churkin said. “I’m talking about the United States; they actually pushed them to escalate,” he said, and now “they are trying to lay the blame on Russia.” Britain, which lost nine citizens in the crash and called for the emergency Security Council meeting, demanded an independent international investigation. “The immediate priority has to be for investigators to gain access to the crash site,” British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant said. “There must be no interfering or tampering with the evidence.” As the council session continued, and before any Russian response, most representatives concentrated on the need for an immediate cease-fire in eastern Ukraine and an independent probe. Many indirectly accused Russia of responsibility for the separatists’ actions, although China cautioned member nations not to “jump to any conclusions . . . or trade accusations.” Speaking later in the White House briefing room, Obama said it was “too early for us to be able to guess what the intentions were of those who might have launched” the missile. “What we know right now, what we have confidence in saying right now, is that a surface-to-air missile was fired, and this is what brought the jet down. . . . That shot was taken within territory that was controlled by the Russian-backed separatists.” The identities of “what individuals or groups of personnel ordered” the strike, he said, are “still subject to additional information that we’re going to be gathering.” But after months of conflict in Ukraine, the shootdown should “snap everyone’s head” to action, he said. “We don’t have time for propaganda; we don’t have time for games.” “Time and again, Russia has refused to take the concrete steps necessary to de-escalate the situation,” Obama said. At least in public, the leaders of Germany, France and Britain expressed outrage over the downing of the airliner but were careful not to rush to judgment or publicly accuse Russia. Countries in the region considered more hawkish on Russia, however, were more willing to assign blame. “We are concerned over press reports that the Ukrainian side has captured phone conversation recordings indicating that pro-Russian separatists might be responsible for shooting the plane down,” the Polish Foreign Ministry said in a statement. The leaders of Britain and Germany were more cautious. “We have some information, but we need to find more information,” said British Prime Minister David Cameron. He called for an proper international investigation but added, “until we know more, it’s not really possible to say more.” German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday pressed Russia to work harder toward a political solution in the Ukrainian conflict. But she also drew a line between the Russians and the separatists. “We’re assuming that the Russian president of course has an influence on Russian separatists,” Merkel told reporters in Berlin. “But still one has to differentiate between the separatists and the Russian government.” On Wednesday, both the United States and European Union slapped new sanctions on Russia, but the European moves were significantly less stinging. Suggesting Friday that she was in no rush to go further, Merkel called Wednesday’s move “an adequate response to what happened in the past few days.” But she also noted that the E.U. decision had left open the door to “act on a new level” if necessary. As the day wore on, and particularly after the Security Council meeting, the rhetoric grew somewhat harsher. “Those who are responsible for this would forfeit their right to claim their own concerns in the name of humanity,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in Mexico City. European governments have been more reluctant than the Americans to slap tougher sanctions on the Russians largely due to Moscow’s economic clout in the region. Should the pro-Russian separatists — with the direct or indirect aid of Russia — ultimately be proven responsible for the strike, analysts said the calculations in the region might change. Countries including Italy and Spain that have generally opposed strict measures will find it tougher to do so. Larger powers have shown a willingness to press the Russians, while acting at the same time to safeguard certain sectors of their domestic economies — finance in Britain, energy in Germany, military manufacturing in France — where the Russians remain influential. But they may be more willing to go out on a limb if the Russians are linked even indirectly to the shootdown. “It’s a game-changer because it’s very difficult to see how anyone in Europe can continue as business as usual,” said Jonathan Eyal, director of international security studies at the Royal United Services Institute in London. “This time we have our own European casualties. It’s not a theoretical conflict in which people we do not know are dying.” Yet other analysts insisted that the desire of the Europeans to sidestep truly forceful sanctions to protect their economies should not be underestimated. Just as vital to their calculations, analysts said, will be a desire not to take steps that could dramatically ratchet up tensions and prompt the Russians to respond by cutting off important energy supplies to the region. “How Europe reacts, we don’t know. It could go either way,” said Andrew Wilson, senior policy fellow in the London office of the European Council on Foreign Relations. Jakov Devcic, deputy bureau chief of the Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Kiev, a group associated with Merkel’s CDU party, said that in Europe, as in the United States, military intervention remained ruled out. But if the rebels are found to have filed the missile, Germany and the E.U. will consider further sanctions, including import bans on luxury goods and, as a second step, moves targeting Russian financial transactions. The U.S. intelligence assessment that rebels were responsible for the shootdown came as Ukrainian leaders stepped up their condemnation of Russia over the crash, calling for Moscow to be held accountable for allegedly supplying the missile system that they said was used by the rebels in eastern Ukraine. “This is a crime against humanity,” Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said, as he called for swift international justice. “All red lines have been already crossed. . . . We ask our international partners to call an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting and to [do] everything we can to stop this war: a war against Ukraine, a war against Europe, and after these terrorists shot down a Malaysian aircraft, this is a war against the world.” Yatsenyuk added: “Everyone is to be accountable and responsible. I mean everyone who supports these terrorists, including Russians and the Russian regime.” Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, addressing the nation early Friday, also blamed pro-Russian separatists and those he called their Russian masters for the downing of the Boeing 777 with 298 passengers and crew on board. The victims included “nearly 100 researchers and advocates” who were en route from Amsterdam via Kuala Lumpur to attend an AIDS conference in Australia, Obama said. “They were taken from us in a senseless act of violence,” he said. AIDS conference organizers have confirmed only seven names and said they think the number of people flying to the conference on the Malaysian flight could be much lower than 100. “War has gone beyond the territory of Ukraine,” Poroshenko said earlier. “Consequences of this war have already reached the whole world.” Russia and the separatists both denied any responsibility for the shootdown, pinning the blame instead on the Ukrainian government. But Poroshenko said recordings of what the Ukraine Security Service described as intercepted phone conversations between separatist rebels and Russian intelligence officials implicated them in the shootdown. The Security Service released new recordings Friday in which it said rebels discussed possessing and moving the Russian-made Buk missile launcher that Ukraine says shot down the airliner. The Ukrainian government released video purporting to show rebels moving a Buk antiaircraft missile system to the Russian border Friday from eastern Ukraine. The government claimed that the missile-launcher was missing one of its missiles. Neither the claims nor the authenticity of the video could be independently verified. Russia pushed back Friday, accusing Poroshenko of poisoning efforts to investigate the crash. A rebel leader on Thursday had briefly claimed responsibility for downing a plane that he described as a Ukrainian military aircraft. Soon after it was established that a commercial airliner had been shot down, the claim was removed. Ukraine’s top intelligence official said Friday that the plane crash was being investigated as a criminal case under Ukraine’s terrorism laws. Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, head of the Ukraine Security Service, said Ukraine now believes that the Boeing 777 was shot down by rebel forces using a Buk antiaircraft missile launcher that had recently been moved over the border from Russia. He said Ukraine has detained two Russian citizens who allegedly helped bring the missile launcher into Ukraine. Ukrainian intelligence services also observed rebels trying to move back into Russia a Buk launcher that had fired two missiles, he added. It was not immediately possible to independently verify the claims. “The terrorists are trying to hide the crime,” Nalyvaichenko said. The Ukraine Security Service on Friday released a second series of recordings of what it said were intercepted phone calls between pro-Russian separatists over the last few days, in which the voices describe being in possession of and moving the Buk missile launcher. In the first conversation, which the Security Service said took place on July 14, an alleged rebel called “Oleg” said he missed a plane flying above a village. “We already have the Buk,” a woman identified as “Oreon” told him. “We’ll be knocking it down.” The Security Service said that on additional tapes from July 17, rebels discuss moving the Buk launcher. “Where do we ship this beauty to, Nikolayevich?” asked an alleged rebel identified by the Security Service as “Buryat.” “It’s not necessary to hide it anywhere,” came the reply. The rebel identified as Nikolayevich, also known as “Khmuri,” also talked about stocks of other weapons and the rebels’ relationship with the Russians at one point. “The thing is, we have Grads, but no spotters,” he said, referring to the mobile, Russian-made multiple rocket launcher. “We are waiting. Supposedly Russia should strike from that side at their positions.” In recent months, the rebels have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using short-range surface-to-air missiles. Experts said such missiles probably could not reach a plane flying at 33,000 feet, the reported altitude of Flight 17. But Ukrainian authorities have said the rebels recently obtained Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missiles — a complex system using ground radar to guide a missile to its target. Experts said it requires expertise and training to operate. In Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Friday that the international community could not expect Russia to get the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine to lay down their arms. But Lavrov said he hoped that the OSCE would send monitors to the Russian-Ukrainian border before the end of the week. In an interview with Rossiya-24 television, he added that Russia was ready to guarantee the safety of those observers at Russia’s own border checkpoints but could make no promises about keeping them safe from bombardments from Ukraine, Interfax reported. Lavrov also accused Poroshenko of potentially poisoning the investigation of the plane crash by calling for a commission to look into it while also declaring it an act of terrorism. “Of course, attempts to claim that this was a terrorist act, so the Ukrainian researchers will be guided by this in their work — this is unacceptable, this pressure on the acts of the this commission,” Lavrov said. In an effort to cooperate with international investigations, Lavrov said, Russia would not accept the black box that rebels said they had recovered from the plane. “We are not going to take away these boxes,” he said. “We are not going to violate the rules existing with regard to this sort of cases within the international community.” Aleksey Komarov, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry, called for “a thorough investigation with the use of representatives from all the interested international organizations.” He alleged that, according to the information available to the Russians, a Ukrainian military Buk-M1 type air defense system capable of bringing down the jet as it cruised at 33,000 feet was stationed in the area near the crash. “Ukrainian Air Force planes armed with various types of missiles are constantly present in the Donetsk region airspace,” he said on Rossiya 24 TV. “This is an indisputable fact.” He said Kiev’s claims that these systems or planes did not shoot at airborne targets “raise serious doubts.” He added that “planes of the Russian Air Force did not fly in Russian regions bordering the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014.” The Ukrainians, however, have cited the purported intercepts and conflicting claims by the pro-Russian rebels, who have been operating with tactical Russian assistance, as evidence of their guilt. In recent days, the rebels, who have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using shorter-range missiles, claimed to have obtained more advanced antiaircraft missile systems. “Evidence and information we have as of now confirm that it was pro-Russian groups, and unfortunately this tragedy took the lives of 298 people,” Ihor Dolhov, Ukraine’s ambassador to NATO, told the BBC. Sergei Kavtaradze, a representative of the separatist militias, told Interfax on Friday that the purported recordings of intercepted phone calls amounted to “unprofessional propaganda.” Faiola reported from Berlin. Craig Whitlock, William Branigin, Ernesto Londoño, David Beard, Ashley Halsey III and Katie Zezima in Washington; Karoun Demirjian in Moscow; Griff Witte in London; Ferry Biedermann in Amsterdam; and Annie Gowen in Kuala Lampur contributed to this report. Source.
I don't mind tweets, but at least, translate them please. It was already clarified that the OSCE wasn't shot at, but it was warning shots.
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On July 19 2014 03:59 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 03:46 Ghanburighan wrote:In response to the posted tweet that OSCE monitors were shot at, the OSCE twitter denies this: https://twitter.com/osce_ru/status/490195983226404864+ Show Spoiler +*** One of the last local leaders of the Pro-Russia militia resigns and leaves for Russia after the plane crash. https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490185002395922432*** The crash investigation is already compromised: Under normal circumstances, among the first to swarm a plane crash are trained professionals. Even under the best of conditions, they’re painstakingly methodical: They seal off the site to prevent tampering, videotape, examine, preserve parts of the wreckage and send bits off for analysis. They never know which part of a wing or fuselage might tell the tale, so every small find is crucial. But the circumstances of Thursday’s Malaysia Airlines plane crash were anything but normal. It was obvious from the moment a giant explosion sounded in eastern Ukraine, spawning smoke that billowed black across the horizon. Among the first to arrive on the scene weren’t first responders, clipboard-carrying inspectors or professionals trained to deal with such emergencies. They were off-duty coal miners and camera-toting locals, tromping through the wreckage, according to news reports. “I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang,” one local resident told Reuters. “Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke.” The site became the domain of souvenir seekers, children and amateur investigators, picking their way through the detritus of a terrible plane crash that claimed the lives of all 298 aboard. “This is a spine,” one gun-carrying man clad in tan camouflage said, according to New York Times footage. He pointed at the charred earth and remains. “A spine here. These are hands.” Others walked with their children. Some sprayed water everywhere. A few took pictures and video and uploaded it to YouTube. The chaos surrounding the wreck continued this morning amid an Associated Press report that the coal miners were still out there, combing through the wreckage. “It’s a contaminated site,” Mark Rosenker, the former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told CBS. “It’s absolutely horrible. Parts could be missing.” The compromised scene in a war zone further complicated an already difficult investigation with the gravest of implications. The sorry situation left foreign governments, from the White House to Canberra, Australia and Amsterdam, scrambling to get international teams to the site as quickly as possible. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was in discussions with separatist rebels Friday morning to secure both safe passage to the site and a truce between rebels and the Ukrainian government to facilitate an international investigation. The fact that everything about the crash is in dispute between feuding forces will, analysts said, make getting to the bottom of what happened even harder. At first, the separatists who rule the region allegedly wouldn’t even allow Ukrainian authorities to investigate the crash. Now, amid a deluge of denials, rebuttals, claims and misinformation, what has taken center stage in this feud of geopolitical import are the “black boxes.” And where, exactly, they may be. The AP reported early today that Ukraine rebels claimed to have two devices. Reuters reported one of its photographers saw one being taken from the crash scene. Who knows what’s true and what’s not. Made famous most recently in the last Malaysia Airlines saga, the so-called “black boxes” are nearly-indestructible cockpit voice and flight-data recorders most commercial airplanes carry so that in the event of an accident or crash investigators can study what went wrong. The devices have proven key to finding the cause of numerous crashes — and the party that controls them will be in the best position to determine what happened. Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the separatist militia called the South East Front, explained to Interfax that separatists have the black box and have handed it over to rebel-friendly authorities in eastern Ukraine. “They will engage in documentation and investigation of the incident,” he told Interfax. The Daily Beast reported a Russian radio station claimed the recorder has been “sent to Moscow for investigation.” Which is exactly what other countries don’t want. The Australian Foreign Affairs minister urged “the separatists to cooperate” in an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald: “If they have taken the black box, they need to return it immediately.” Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak agreed. “An international team must have full access to the crash site,” he said. “And no one should interfere with the area, or move any debris including the black box.” But much of the area has already been interfered with, and what some found there has been horrifying. Many of the bodies seem almost frozen in time, the New York Times noted. One woman wearing black was still raising her arm when discovered “as if signaling someone.” Another man — in socks but not pants — lay with his arm on his stomach “as if in repose.” Others wore their seat belts. And one man had his iPhone by his side. Scattered all about were other artifacts of daily life: toiletries, cologne, a bicycle. That’s why everyone should concentrate on “who is going to properly protect the evidence and do the job of handling the bodies,” James Hall, a former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told the Wall Street Journal. Though that hasn’t happened yet. As workers, policemen and coal miners sift through the remains this morning, little has emerged beyond rumor as to who may have shot down the plane and why. The situation needs “unimpeded international investigation as quickly as possible,” the White House said in a statement late Thursday. “We urge all concerned — Russia, the pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine — to support an immediate cease-fire in order to ensure safe and unfettered access to the crash site for international investigators and in order to facilitate the recovery of remains.” Source.*** US representative Samantha Power at the UNSC meeting today: Yesterday, we were all shocked by the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. All 298 people aboard – 283 passengers and 15 crew – were killed. As we stared at the passenger list yesterday we saw next to three of the passengers names a capital “I.” As we now know, the letter “I” stands for infant. To the families and friends of the victims, it is impossible to find words to express our condolences. We can only commit to you that we will not rest until we find out what happened. A full, credible, and unimpeded international investigation must begin immediately. The perpetrators must be brought to justice. They must not be sheltered by any member state of the United Nations. Let me share with you our assessment of the evidence so far. We assess Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 carrying these 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was likely downed by a surface-to-air missile, an SA-11, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine. The airliner was traveling at a cruise altitude of 33,000 feet and its speed was typical for an airliner along an established flight corridor frequented by commercial traffic. The flight was transmitting its assigned transponder code corresponding with its flight plan, and flight tracking data was publicly available on the internet. There was nothing threatening or provocative about MH17. Of the operational SAM systems located near the border, only the SA-11, SA-20, and SA-22 SAM systems are capable of hitting an aircraft at this flight’s altitude of 33,000 feet. We can rule out shorter-range SAMs known to be in separatist hands, including MANPADS, SA-8 and SA-13 systems, which are not capable of hitting an aircraft at this altitude Early Thursday, an SA-11 SAM system was reported near Snizhne by a Western reporter and separatists were spotted hours before the incident with an SA-11 system at a location close to the site where the plane came down. Separatists initially claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane and posted videos that are now being connected to the Malaysian airlines crash. Separatist leaders also boasted on social media about shooting down a plane, but later deleted these messages. Because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems. The Ukrainians do have SA-11 systems in their inventory. However, we are not aware of any Ukrainian SAM systems in the area of the shoot-down. And, more importantly, since the beginning of this crisis, Ukrainian air defenses have not fired a single missile, despite several alleged violations of their airspace by Russian aircraft. This also follows a pattern of actions by Russian-backed separatists. On June 13th, separatists shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, carrying 40 paratroopers and nine crew. On June 24th, as this Council was meeting to welcome Ukraine’s unilateral ceasefire, we received word that separatists downed a Ukrainian helicopter, killing all nine on board. On July 14th, separatists claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian military cargo plane, flying at 6,000 meters, and on July 16, they claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian fighter jet. If indeed Russian-backed separatists were behind this attack on a civilian airliner, they and their backers would have good reason to cover up evidence of their crime. Thus, it is extremely important that an investigation be commenced immediately. In the first instance, the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission should act as a first responder, laying the foundation for efforts by other international organizations and individual nations including those whose citizens who were victims of this tragedy. Yesterday, President Obama assured Ukraine’s President Poroshenko that U.S. experts will offer all possible assistance upon his request. President Poroshenko has invited the independent and credible International Civil Aviation Organization to join an investigation. International investigators must be granted immediate, full, and unfettered access to the crash site. All those concerned – Russia, pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine – should agree to support an immediate ceasefire to facilitate access by international investigators. In this regard, we look to the SMM also to reach agreement with separatists and others in the region to make this possible. All evidence must remain undisturbed, and any evidence removed from the site by the Russian-backed separatists operating in the area should be promptly returned and handed over. Russia needs to help make this happen. While it may take us some time to firmly establish who shot down a plane filled with innocents, most Council members and most members of the international community have been warning for months about the devastation that would come if Russia did not stop what it started, if it did not reign in what it unleashed. The context for yesterday’s horror is clear: separatist forces – backed by the Russian government – continue to destabilize Ukraine and undermine the efforts of Ukraine’s elected leaders to build a democratic Ukraine that is stable, unified, secure, and able to determine its own future. Russia says that it seeks peace in Ukraine, but we have repeatedly provided this Council with evidence of Russia’s continued support to the separatists. Time after time, we have called on the Russian government to de-escalate the situation, by stopping the flow of fighters and weapons into Ukraine, pressing separatists to agree to a cease-fire and release all hostages, and support a roadmap for negotiations. Time after time, President Putin has committed to working towards dialogue and peace: in Geneva in April, in Normandy in June, and in Berlin earlier this month. And every single time, he has broken that commitment. Here is what we know: In the last few weeks, Russia has increased the number of tanks, armored vehicles, and rocket launchers in southwest Russia. More advanced air defense systems have also arrived. Moscow has recently transferred Soviet-era tanks and artillery to the separatists and several military vehicles crossed the border. After recapturing several Ukrainian cities last weekend, Ukrainian officials discovered caches of weapons long associated with Russia stockpiles, including MANPADS, mines, grenades, MREs, vehicles, and a pontoon bridge. Ukrainian forces have discovered large amounts of other Russian-provided military equipment, including accompanying documentation verifying the Russian origin, in the areas that they have liberated from separatists in recent days. Recruiting efforts for separatist fighters are expanding inside Russia and separatists have openly said that they are looking for volunteers with experience operating heavy weapons such as tanks and air defenses. Russia has allowed officials from the “Donetsk Peoples’ Republic” to establish a recruiting office in Moscow. Ukrainian pilot Nadiya Savchenko, who has long had a distinguished career in the Ukrainian military, was taken by separatists in mid-June. She is now being held – where? - in a prison in Voronezh, Russia. According to the Ukrainian government, she was transferred to Russia by separatists. Russia continues to redeploy new forces extremely close to the Ukrainian border. In addition, this past Monday, a Ukrainian Air Force cargo plane was shot down in Ukrainian airspace; and on Wednesday, a Ukrainian fighter jet was also shot down in Ukrainian airspace. In both instances, the Ukrainian government believes that these planes were fired on from Russian territory. It is because of these continued destabilizing Russian actions that the United States imposed sanctions on the defense, energy, and financial sectors of the Russian economy—including financial institutions. These measures include freezing the assets of Russian defense companies and blocking new financing of some of Russia’s most important banks and energy companies. These sanctions are significant, but they are also targeted – designed to have the maximum impact on the Russian calculus while limiting the impact on the Russian people and limiting any spillover effects on our interests or those of our allies. The European Union has also announced expanded sanctions against Russia this week. The message is unified and clear: If President Putin continues to choose escalation over de-escalation, the international community will continue to impose costs on Russia. But this is not what any of us want. We and our allies remain committed to a diplomatic solution, as are the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian people, who have seen their neighbors, friends, and family members killed in a needless conflict. President Poroshenko has consistently backed up his words with actions. He proposed a comprehensive peace plan and declared a unilateral ceasefire, both of which were cynically rejected by the illegal armed groups and their backers in Moscow. President Poroshenko’s plan offered amnesty to separatists who lay down their arms voluntarily, and who are not guilty of capital crimes. He committed to providing a safe corridor for Russian fighters to return to Russia; he established a job creation program for the affected areas; included an offer of broad decentralization and dialogue with eastern regions, including the promise of early local elections; and granted increased local control over language, holidays, and customs. President Poroshenko also has reached out to the residents of eastern Ukraine and is pursuing constitutional reform which will give local regions more authority to choose their regional leaders and protect locally-spoken languages. He has said he will meet with separatist at any safe location inside or outside of Ukraine. The United States’ goal throughout the crisis in Ukraine has been consistent: to support a stable, peaceful, and democratic Ukraine. We will not be satisfied with a temporary halt to violence. Russia must stop destabilizing Ukraine, and allow all of the people of Ukraine to decide their country’s future through a democratic political process. As we sit here, the remains of nearly 300 people – of innocent infants, children, women, and men – are strewn across a blackened, smoldering landscape in Ukraine. Those victims came from at least nine different nations. They could just as easily have come from any of ours. We must treat all of them as our own victims. We have a duty to each and every one of those individuals, their families, and their countries to determine why that jet fell out of the sky and to hold the perpetrators accountable. We must stop at nothing to bring those responsible to justice. This appalling attack occurred in the context of a crisis that has been fueled by Russian support for separatists -- through arms, weapons, and training -- and by the Russian failure to follow through on its commitments and by its failure to adhere to the fundamental principles of the UN Charter. This tragedy only underscores the urgency and determination with which we insist that Russia immediately take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine, support a sustainable cease-fire, and follow the path toward peace that the Ukrainian government has consistently offered. This war can be ended. Russia can end this war. Russia must end this war. Source.*** President Obama said Friday that a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying nearly 300 people, including at least one U.S. citizen, was evidently shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. In a White House news conference a day after the Boeing 777 crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Obama stopped short of saying who fired the missile or directly blaming Russia for the deaths, which he called “an outrage of unspeakable proportions.” But he said the separatists “have received a steady flow of support from Russia,” including heavy arms, training and antiaircraft weapons. Pointing to rebel claims to have shot down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks, including a Ukrainian fighter jet, Obama said it was “not possible for these separatists to function the way they’re functioning . . . without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.” Russian President Vladimir Putin “has the most control over that situation, and so far at least, he has not exercised it,” Obama said. He spoke after U.S. officials disclosed a preliminary intelligence assessment indicating that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was likely shot down by pro-Russian separatists with an SA-11 missile. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that was previously identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner. As emergency workers continue to search for victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 after it was shot down near the Russian border, world leaders are calling for a cease-fire in Ukraine. (AP) In public statements, senior members of the administration from the president down did not specify the perpetrators of the shootdown, although they made it clear that the rebels are the likeliest suspects. Because of the “technical complexity” of the Russian-made surface-to-air missile system, “it is impossible to rule out Russian technical assistance” to the separatists in operating it, Samantha Power , the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told the U.N. Security Council earlier Friday. Separately, military and intelligence officials said Friday that the United States has gathered a significant body of evidence that Ukrainian separatists have been trained on Russian territory in recent weeks to fire antiaircraft missiles. Obama identified the American victim on the plane as Quinn Lucas Schansman, a dual U.S.-Dutch national who reportedly lived in Amsterdam. He called for “a credible international investigation” into the tragedy and urged Russia to cooperate with it. As the shootdown sent the Ukraine war into the realm of international crisis, Obama called it a “global tragedy,” saying that “it is not going to be localized; it is not going to be contained.” He joined calls for an international investigation and said investigators from the FBI and National Transportation Safety Board have already been dispatched. At an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting Friday morning, Power was much more direct in holding Russia responsible for the shootdown, detailing the volume of weapons and other assistance that Moscow has provided to the separatists. “Russia can end this war,” she said. “Russia must end this war.” Among the 298 victims, Power said, were 80 children and three listed on the passenger manifest as infants. In response, Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin did not directly address charges that Moscow bears responsibility and was complicit in the missile attack. Agreeing that an international investigation is needed, Churkin criticized those who he said are “trying to prejudge the outcome with broad statements and insinuations,” and he accused the Ukrainian government of failing to warn international aviation to avoid the conflict area in eastern Ukraine. “Why did Ukrainian aviation dispatchers send [the Malaysian plane] to an area of strife, where there were antiaircraft systems in operation?” he asked. By continuing its military offensive to dislodge the separatists, Ukraine “chose the wrong path, and their Western colleagues supported them,” Churkin said. “I’m talking about the United States; they actually pushed them to escalate,” he said, and now “they are trying to lay the blame on Russia.” Britain, which lost nine citizens in the crash and called for the emergency Security Council meeting, demanded an independent international investigation. “The immediate priority has to be for investigators to gain access to the crash site,” British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant said. “There must be no interfering or tampering with the evidence.” As the council session continued, and before any Russian response, most representatives concentrated on the need for an immediate cease-fire in eastern Ukraine and an independent probe. Many indirectly accused Russia of responsibility for the separatists’ actions, although China cautioned member nations not to “jump to any conclusions . . . or trade accusations.” Speaking later in the White House briefing room, Obama said it was “too early for us to be able to guess what the intentions were of those who might have launched” the missile. “What we know right now, what we have confidence in saying right now, is that a surface-to-air missile was fired, and this is what brought the jet down. . . . That shot was taken within territory that was controlled by the Russian-backed separatists.” The identities of “what individuals or groups of personnel ordered” the strike, he said, are “still subject to additional information that we’re going to be gathering.” But after months of conflict in Ukraine, the shootdown should “snap everyone’s head” to action, he said. “We don’t have time for propaganda; we don’t have time for games.” “Time and again, Russia has refused to take the concrete steps necessary to de-escalate the situation,” Obama said. At least in public, the leaders of Germany, France and Britain expressed outrage over the downing of the airliner but were careful not to rush to judgment or publicly accuse Russia. Countries in the region considered more hawkish on Russia, however, were more willing to assign blame. “We are concerned over press reports that the Ukrainian side has captured phone conversation recordings indicating that pro-Russian separatists might be responsible for shooting the plane down,” the Polish Foreign Ministry said in a statement. The leaders of Britain and Germany were more cautious. “We have some information, but we need to find more information,” said British Prime Minister David Cameron. He called for an proper international investigation but added, “until we know more, it’s not really possible to say more.” German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday pressed Russia to work harder toward a political solution in the Ukrainian conflict. But she also drew a line between the Russians and the separatists. “We’re assuming that the Russian president of course has an influence on Russian separatists,” Merkel told reporters in Berlin. “But still one has to differentiate between the separatists and the Russian government.” On Wednesday, both the United States and European Union slapped new sanctions on Russia, but the European moves were significantly less stinging. Suggesting Friday that she was in no rush to go further, Merkel called Wednesday’s move “an adequate response to what happened in the past few days.” But she also noted that the E.U. decision had left open the door to “act on a new level” if necessary. As the day wore on, and particularly after the Security Council meeting, the rhetoric grew somewhat harsher. “Those who are responsible for this would forfeit their right to claim their own concerns in the name of humanity,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in Mexico City. European governments have been more reluctant than the Americans to slap tougher sanctions on the Russians largely due to Moscow’s economic clout in the region. Should the pro-Russian separatists — with the direct or indirect aid of Russia — ultimately be proven responsible for the strike, analysts said the calculations in the region might change. Countries including Italy and Spain that have generally opposed strict measures will find it tougher to do so. Larger powers have shown a willingness to press the Russians, while acting at the same time to safeguard certain sectors of their domestic economies — finance in Britain, energy in Germany, military manufacturing in France — where the Russians remain influential. But they may be more willing to go out on a limb if the Russians are linked even indirectly to the shootdown. “It’s a game-changer because it’s very difficult to see how anyone in Europe can continue as business as usual,” said Jonathan Eyal, director of international security studies at the Royal United Services Institute in London. “This time we have our own European casualties. It’s not a theoretical conflict in which people we do not know are dying.” Yet other analysts insisted that the desire of the Europeans to sidestep truly forceful sanctions to protect their economies should not be underestimated. Just as vital to their calculations, analysts said, will be a desire not to take steps that could dramatically ratchet up tensions and prompt the Russians to respond by cutting off important energy supplies to the region. “How Europe reacts, we don’t know. It could go either way,” said Andrew Wilson, senior policy fellow in the London office of the European Council on Foreign Relations. Jakov Devcic, deputy bureau chief of the Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Kiev, a group associated with Merkel’s CDU party, said that in Europe, as in the United States, military intervention remained ruled out. But if the rebels are found to have filed the missile, Germany and the E.U. will consider further sanctions, including import bans on luxury goods and, as a second step, moves targeting Russian financial transactions. The U.S. intelligence assessment that rebels were responsible for the shootdown came as Ukrainian leaders stepped up their condemnation of Russia over the crash, calling for Moscow to be held accountable for allegedly supplying the missile system that they said was used by the rebels in eastern Ukraine. “This is a crime against humanity,” Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said, as he called for swift international justice. “All red lines have been already crossed. . . . We ask our international partners to call an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting and to [do] everything we can to stop this war: a war against Ukraine, a war against Europe, and after these terrorists shot down a Malaysian aircraft, this is a war against the world.” Yatsenyuk added: “Everyone is to be accountable and responsible. I mean everyone who supports these terrorists, including Russians and the Russian regime.” Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, addressing the nation early Friday, also blamed pro-Russian separatists and those he called their Russian masters for the downing of the Boeing 777 with 298 passengers and crew on board. The victims included “nearly 100 researchers and advocates” who were en route from Amsterdam via Kuala Lumpur to attend an AIDS conference in Australia, Obama said. “They were taken from us in a senseless act of violence,” he said. AIDS conference organizers have confirmed only seven names and said they think the number of people flying to the conference on the Malaysian flight could be much lower than 100. “War has gone beyond the territory of Ukraine,” Poroshenko said earlier. “Consequences of this war have already reached the whole world.” Russia and the separatists both denied any responsibility for the shootdown, pinning the blame instead on the Ukrainian government. But Poroshenko said recordings of what the Ukraine Security Service described as intercepted phone conversations between separatist rebels and Russian intelligence officials implicated them in the shootdown. The Security Service released new recordings Friday in which it said rebels discussed possessing and moving the Russian-made Buk missile launcher that Ukraine says shot down the airliner. The Ukrainian government released video purporting to show rebels moving a Buk antiaircraft missile system to the Russian border Friday from eastern Ukraine. The government claimed that the missile-launcher was missing one of its missiles. Neither the claims nor the authenticity of the video could be independently verified. Russia pushed back Friday, accusing Poroshenko of poisoning efforts to investigate the crash. A rebel leader on Thursday had briefly claimed responsibility for downing a plane that he described as a Ukrainian military aircraft. Soon after it was established that a commercial airliner had been shot down, the claim was removed. Ukraine’s top intelligence official said Friday that the plane crash was being investigated as a criminal case under Ukraine’s terrorism laws. Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, head of the Ukraine Security Service, said Ukraine now believes that the Boeing 777 was shot down by rebel forces using a Buk antiaircraft missile launcher that had recently been moved over the border from Russia. He said Ukraine has detained two Russian citizens who allegedly helped bring the missile launcher into Ukraine. Ukrainian intelligence services also observed rebels trying to move back into Russia a Buk launcher that had fired two missiles, he added. It was not immediately possible to independently verify the claims. “The terrorists are trying to hide the crime,” Nalyvaichenko said. The Ukraine Security Service on Friday released a second series of recordings of what it said were intercepted phone calls between pro-Russian separatists over the last few days, in which the voices describe being in possession of and moving the Buk missile launcher. In the first conversation, which the Security Service said took place on July 14, an alleged rebel called “Oleg” said he missed a plane flying above a village. “We already have the Buk,” a woman identified as “Oreon” told him. “We’ll be knocking it down.” The Security Service said that on additional tapes from July 17, rebels discuss moving the Buk launcher. “Where do we ship this beauty to, Nikolayevich?” asked an alleged rebel identified by the Security Service as “Buryat.” “It’s not necessary to hide it anywhere,” came the reply. The rebel identified as Nikolayevich, also known as “Khmuri,” also talked about stocks of other weapons and the rebels’ relationship with the Russians at one point. “The thing is, we have Grads, but no spotters,” he said, referring to the mobile, Russian-made multiple rocket launcher. “We are waiting. Supposedly Russia should strike from that side at their positions.” In recent months, the rebels have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using short-range surface-to-air missiles. Experts said such missiles probably could not reach a plane flying at 33,000 feet, the reported altitude of Flight 17. But Ukrainian authorities have said the rebels recently obtained Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missiles — a complex system using ground radar to guide a missile to its target. Experts said it requires expertise and training to operate. In Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Friday that the international community could not expect Russia to get the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine to lay down their arms. But Lavrov said he hoped that the OSCE would send monitors to the Russian-Ukrainian border before the end of the week. In an interview with Rossiya-24 television, he added that Russia was ready to guarantee the safety of those observers at Russia’s own border checkpoints but could make no promises about keeping them safe from bombardments from Ukraine, Interfax reported. Lavrov also accused Poroshenko of potentially poisoning the investigation of the plane crash by calling for a commission to look into it while also declaring it an act of terrorism. “Of course, attempts to claim that this was a terrorist act, so the Ukrainian researchers will be guided by this in their work — this is unacceptable, this pressure on the acts of the this commission,” Lavrov said. In an effort to cooperate with international investigations, Lavrov said, Russia would not accept the black box that rebels said they had recovered from the plane. “We are not going to take away these boxes,” he said. “We are not going to violate the rules existing with regard to this sort of cases within the international community.” Aleksey Komarov, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry, called for “a thorough investigation with the use of representatives from all the interested international organizations.” He alleged that, according to the information available to the Russians, a Ukrainian military Buk-M1 type air defense system capable of bringing down the jet as it cruised at 33,000 feet was stationed in the area near the crash. “Ukrainian Air Force planes armed with various types of missiles are constantly present in the Donetsk region airspace,” he said on Rossiya 24 TV. “This is an indisputable fact.” He said Kiev’s claims that these systems or planes did not shoot at airborne targets “raise serious doubts.” He added that “planes of the Russian Air Force did not fly in Russian regions bordering the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014.” The Ukrainians, however, have cited the purported intercepts and conflicting claims by the pro-Russian rebels, who have been operating with tactical Russian assistance, as evidence of their guilt. In recent days, the rebels, who have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using shorter-range missiles, claimed to have obtained more advanced antiaircraft missile systems. “Evidence and information we have as of now confirm that it was pro-Russian groups, and unfortunately this tragedy took the lives of 298 people,” Ihor Dolhov, Ukraine’s ambassador to NATO, told the BBC. Sergei Kavtaradze, a representative of the separatist militias, told Interfax on Friday that the purported recordings of intercepted phone calls amounted to “unprofessional propaganda.” Faiola reported from Berlin. Craig Whitlock, William Branigin, Ernesto Londoño, David Beard, Ashley Halsey III and Katie Zezima in Washington; Karoun Demirjian in Moscow; Griff Witte in London; Ferry Biedermann in Amsterdam; and Annie Gowen in Kuala Lampur contributed to this report. Source. I don't mind tweets, but at least, translate them please. It was already clarified that the OSCE wasn't shot at, but it was warning shots.
I guess the OSCE saw it as necessary to clarify. Also, twitter has it's automatic translation service at the click of a button. Works great.
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On July 19 2014 04:09 Ghanburighan wrote: I guess the OSCE saw it as necessary to clarify. Also, twitter has it's automatic translation service at the click of a button. Works great.
I can't find that "button"...
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I find it strange that they would need to investigate the wreckage of an aircraft when it's almost completely certain it was shot down? Wouldn't it make more sense to investigate who shot it down rather than why the aircraft crashed?
The way i see it, the airliner was flying over a war zone, or close to it. The SAM operators got a contact, thought it might a military aircraft and shot it down. Even if the airliner had its transponder up and working (e.g. a radar contact to which you can add a squawk code, it's used for identification in civil aviation), it's possible that the SAM operator thought it was a military aircraft using a transponder to pretend to be civilian. Mind games? Yes. That's what war is.
The capacities of radar and aircraft identification aren't magical by the way. As sophisticated as weaponry is today, a lot of it is still aim and shoot, there isn't a window that appears when you press the trigger to say "Are you sure you want to fire at this aircraft? Yes / Cancel". An airliner is a sitting duck, huge radar blip, it doesn't maneuver, mid-high altitude, constant speed, constant heading.
A military aircraft might be agile enough to dodge missiles, however the get a warning that they're being targeted by a weapons system. An airliner has nothing of the sort. It's astonishing to me that the ICAO wouldn't tell civilian aircraft to steer clear of Ukraine at the moment.
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I am from the United States and will feel free to continue posting my opinions regarding our current political situation. Modding/warning people for their honestly held beliefs is unbecoming of a message board. This isn't a peer-reviewed journal. I don't need to 'put more effort into' my opinions.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 19 2014 04:09 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 03:59 m4ini wrote:On July 19 2014 03:46 Ghanburighan wrote:In response to the posted tweet that OSCE monitors were shot at, the OSCE twitter denies this: https://twitter.com/osce_ru/status/490195983226404864+ Show Spoiler +*** One of the last local leaders of the Pro-Russia militia resigns and leaves for Russia after the plane crash. https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490185002395922432*** The crash investigation is already compromised: Under normal circumstances, among the first to swarm a plane crash are trained professionals. Even under the best of conditions, they’re painstakingly methodical: They seal off the site to prevent tampering, videotape, examine, preserve parts of the wreckage and send bits off for analysis. They never know which part of a wing or fuselage might tell the tale, so every small find is crucial. But the circumstances of Thursday’s Malaysia Airlines plane crash were anything but normal. It was obvious from the moment a giant explosion sounded in eastern Ukraine, spawning smoke that billowed black across the horizon. Among the first to arrive on the scene weren’t first responders, clipboard-carrying inspectors or professionals trained to deal with such emergencies. They were off-duty coal miners and camera-toting locals, tromping through the wreckage, according to news reports. “I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang,” one local resident told Reuters. “Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke.” The site became the domain of souvenir seekers, children and amateur investigators, picking their way through the detritus of a terrible plane crash that claimed the lives of all 298 aboard. “This is a spine,” one gun-carrying man clad in tan camouflage said, according to New York Times footage. He pointed at the charred earth and remains. “A spine here. These are hands.” Others walked with their children. Some sprayed water everywhere. A few took pictures and video and uploaded it to YouTube. The chaos surrounding the wreck continued this morning amid an Associated Press report that the coal miners were still out there, combing through the wreckage. “It’s a contaminated site,” Mark Rosenker, the former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told CBS. “It’s absolutely horrible. Parts could be missing.” The compromised scene in a war zone further complicated an already difficult investigation with the gravest of implications. The sorry situation left foreign governments, from the White House to Canberra, Australia and Amsterdam, scrambling to get international teams to the site as quickly as possible. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was in discussions with separatist rebels Friday morning to secure both safe passage to the site and a truce between rebels and the Ukrainian government to facilitate an international investigation. The fact that everything about the crash is in dispute between feuding forces will, analysts said, make getting to the bottom of what happened even harder. At first, the separatists who rule the region allegedly wouldn’t even allow Ukrainian authorities to investigate the crash. Now, amid a deluge of denials, rebuttals, claims and misinformation, what has taken center stage in this feud of geopolitical import are the “black boxes.” And where, exactly, they may be. The AP reported early today that Ukraine rebels claimed to have two devices. Reuters reported one of its photographers saw one being taken from the crash scene. Who knows what’s true and what’s not. Made famous most recently in the last Malaysia Airlines saga, the so-called “black boxes” are nearly-indestructible cockpit voice and flight-data recorders most commercial airplanes carry so that in the event of an accident or crash investigators can study what went wrong. The devices have proven key to finding the cause of numerous crashes — and the party that controls them will be in the best position to determine what happened. Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the separatist militia called the South East Front, explained to Interfax that separatists have the black box and have handed it over to rebel-friendly authorities in eastern Ukraine. “They will engage in documentation and investigation of the incident,” he told Interfax. The Daily Beast reported a Russian radio station claimed the recorder has been “sent to Moscow for investigation.” Which is exactly what other countries don’t want. The Australian Foreign Affairs minister urged “the separatists to cooperate” in an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald: “If they have taken the black box, they need to return it immediately.” Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak agreed. “An international team must have full access to the crash site,” he said. “And no one should interfere with the area, or move any debris including the black box.” But much of the area has already been interfered with, and what some found there has been horrifying. Many of the bodies seem almost frozen in time, the New York Times noted. One woman wearing black was still raising her arm when discovered “as if signaling someone.” Another man — in socks but not pants — lay with his arm on his stomach “as if in repose.” Others wore their seat belts. And one man had his iPhone by his side. Scattered all about were other artifacts of daily life: toiletries, cologne, a bicycle. That’s why everyone should concentrate on “who is going to properly protect the evidence and do the job of handling the bodies,” James Hall, a former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, told the Wall Street Journal. Though that hasn’t happened yet. As workers, policemen and coal miners sift through the remains this morning, little has emerged beyond rumor as to who may have shot down the plane and why. The situation needs “unimpeded international investigation as quickly as possible,” the White House said in a statement late Thursday. “We urge all concerned — Russia, the pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine — to support an immediate cease-fire in order to ensure safe and unfettered access to the crash site for international investigators and in order to facilitate the recovery of remains.” Source.*** US representative Samantha Power at the UNSC meeting today: Yesterday, we were all shocked by the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. All 298 people aboard – 283 passengers and 15 crew – were killed. As we stared at the passenger list yesterday we saw next to three of the passengers names a capital “I.” As we now know, the letter “I” stands for infant. To the families and friends of the victims, it is impossible to find words to express our condolences. We can only commit to you that we will not rest until we find out what happened. A full, credible, and unimpeded international investigation must begin immediately. The perpetrators must be brought to justice. They must not be sheltered by any member state of the United Nations. Let me share with you our assessment of the evidence so far. We assess Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 carrying these 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was likely downed by a surface-to-air missile, an SA-11, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine. The airliner was traveling at a cruise altitude of 33,000 feet and its speed was typical for an airliner along an established flight corridor frequented by commercial traffic. The flight was transmitting its assigned transponder code corresponding with its flight plan, and flight tracking data was publicly available on the internet. There was nothing threatening or provocative about MH17. Of the operational SAM systems located near the border, only the SA-11, SA-20, and SA-22 SAM systems are capable of hitting an aircraft at this flight’s altitude of 33,000 feet. We can rule out shorter-range SAMs known to be in separatist hands, including MANPADS, SA-8 and SA-13 systems, which are not capable of hitting an aircraft at this altitude Early Thursday, an SA-11 SAM system was reported near Snizhne by a Western reporter and separatists were spotted hours before the incident with an SA-11 system at a location close to the site where the plane came down. Separatists initially claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane and posted videos that are now being connected to the Malaysian airlines crash. Separatist leaders also boasted on social media about shooting down a plane, but later deleted these messages. Because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems. The Ukrainians do have SA-11 systems in their inventory. However, we are not aware of any Ukrainian SAM systems in the area of the shoot-down. And, more importantly, since the beginning of this crisis, Ukrainian air defenses have not fired a single missile, despite several alleged violations of their airspace by Russian aircraft. This also follows a pattern of actions by Russian-backed separatists. On June 13th, separatists shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, carrying 40 paratroopers and nine crew. On June 24th, as this Council was meeting to welcome Ukraine’s unilateral ceasefire, we received word that separatists downed a Ukrainian helicopter, killing all nine on board. On July 14th, separatists claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian military cargo plane, flying at 6,000 meters, and on July 16, they claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian fighter jet. If indeed Russian-backed separatists were behind this attack on a civilian airliner, they and their backers would have good reason to cover up evidence of their crime. Thus, it is extremely important that an investigation be commenced immediately. In the first instance, the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission should act as a first responder, laying the foundation for efforts by other international organizations and individual nations including those whose citizens who were victims of this tragedy. Yesterday, President Obama assured Ukraine’s President Poroshenko that U.S. experts will offer all possible assistance upon his request. President Poroshenko has invited the independent and credible International Civil Aviation Organization to join an investigation. International investigators must be granted immediate, full, and unfettered access to the crash site. All those concerned – Russia, pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine – should agree to support an immediate ceasefire to facilitate access by international investigators. In this regard, we look to the SMM also to reach agreement with separatists and others in the region to make this possible. All evidence must remain undisturbed, and any evidence removed from the site by the Russian-backed separatists operating in the area should be promptly returned and handed over. Russia needs to help make this happen. While it may take us some time to firmly establish who shot down a plane filled with innocents, most Council members and most members of the international community have been warning for months about the devastation that would come if Russia did not stop what it started, if it did not reign in what it unleashed. The context for yesterday’s horror is clear: separatist forces – backed by the Russian government – continue to destabilize Ukraine and undermine the efforts of Ukraine’s elected leaders to build a democratic Ukraine that is stable, unified, secure, and able to determine its own future. Russia says that it seeks peace in Ukraine, but we have repeatedly provided this Council with evidence of Russia’s continued support to the separatists. Time after time, we have called on the Russian government to de-escalate the situation, by stopping the flow of fighters and weapons into Ukraine, pressing separatists to agree to a cease-fire and release all hostages, and support a roadmap for negotiations. Time after time, President Putin has committed to working towards dialogue and peace: in Geneva in April, in Normandy in June, and in Berlin earlier this month. And every single time, he has broken that commitment. Here is what we know: In the last few weeks, Russia has increased the number of tanks, armored vehicles, and rocket launchers in southwest Russia. More advanced air defense systems have also arrived. Moscow has recently transferred Soviet-era tanks and artillery to the separatists and several military vehicles crossed the border. After recapturing several Ukrainian cities last weekend, Ukrainian officials discovered caches of weapons long associated with Russia stockpiles, including MANPADS, mines, grenades, MREs, vehicles, and a pontoon bridge. Ukrainian forces have discovered large amounts of other Russian-provided military equipment, including accompanying documentation verifying the Russian origin, in the areas that they have liberated from separatists in recent days. Recruiting efforts for separatist fighters are expanding inside Russia and separatists have openly said that they are looking for volunteers with experience operating heavy weapons such as tanks and air defenses. Russia has allowed officials from the “Donetsk Peoples’ Republic” to establish a recruiting office in Moscow. Ukrainian pilot Nadiya Savchenko, who has long had a distinguished career in the Ukrainian military, was taken by separatists in mid-June. She is now being held – where? - in a prison in Voronezh, Russia. According to the Ukrainian government, she was transferred to Russia by separatists. Russia continues to redeploy new forces extremely close to the Ukrainian border. In addition, this past Monday, a Ukrainian Air Force cargo plane was shot down in Ukrainian airspace; and on Wednesday, a Ukrainian fighter jet was also shot down in Ukrainian airspace. In both instances, the Ukrainian government believes that these planes were fired on from Russian territory. It is because of these continued destabilizing Russian actions that the United States imposed sanctions on the defense, energy, and financial sectors of the Russian economy—including financial institutions. These measures include freezing the assets of Russian defense companies and blocking new financing of some of Russia’s most important banks and energy companies. These sanctions are significant, but they are also targeted – designed to have the maximum impact on the Russian calculus while limiting the impact on the Russian people and limiting any spillover effects on our interests or those of our allies. The European Union has also announced expanded sanctions against Russia this week. The message is unified and clear: If President Putin continues to choose escalation over de-escalation, the international community will continue to impose costs on Russia. But this is not what any of us want. We and our allies remain committed to a diplomatic solution, as are the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian people, who have seen their neighbors, friends, and family members killed in a needless conflict. President Poroshenko has consistently backed up his words with actions. He proposed a comprehensive peace plan and declared a unilateral ceasefire, both of which were cynically rejected by the illegal armed groups and their backers in Moscow. President Poroshenko’s plan offered amnesty to separatists who lay down their arms voluntarily, and who are not guilty of capital crimes. He committed to providing a safe corridor for Russian fighters to return to Russia; he established a job creation program for the affected areas; included an offer of broad decentralization and dialogue with eastern regions, including the promise of early local elections; and granted increased local control over language, holidays, and customs. President Poroshenko also has reached out to the residents of eastern Ukraine and is pursuing constitutional reform which will give local regions more authority to choose their regional leaders and protect locally-spoken languages. He has said he will meet with separatist at any safe location inside or outside of Ukraine. The United States’ goal throughout the crisis in Ukraine has been consistent: to support a stable, peaceful, and democratic Ukraine. We will not be satisfied with a temporary halt to violence. Russia must stop destabilizing Ukraine, and allow all of the people of Ukraine to decide their country’s future through a democratic political process. As we sit here, the remains of nearly 300 people – of innocent infants, children, women, and men – are strewn across a blackened, smoldering landscape in Ukraine. Those victims came from at least nine different nations. They could just as easily have come from any of ours. We must treat all of them as our own victims. We have a duty to each and every one of those individuals, their families, and their countries to determine why that jet fell out of the sky and to hold the perpetrators accountable. We must stop at nothing to bring those responsible to justice. This appalling attack occurred in the context of a crisis that has been fueled by Russian support for separatists -- through arms, weapons, and training -- and by the Russian failure to follow through on its commitments and by its failure to adhere to the fundamental principles of the UN Charter. This tragedy only underscores the urgency and determination with which we insist that Russia immediately take concrete steps to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine, support a sustainable cease-fire, and follow the path toward peace that the Ukrainian government has consistently offered. This war can be ended. Russia can end this war. Russia must end this war. Source.*** President Obama said Friday that a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying nearly 300 people, including at least one U.S. citizen, was evidently shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. In a White House news conference a day after the Boeing 777 crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Obama stopped short of saying who fired the missile or directly blaming Russia for the deaths, which he called “an outrage of unspeakable proportions.” But he said the separatists “have received a steady flow of support from Russia,” including heavy arms, training and antiaircraft weapons. Pointing to rebel claims to have shot down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks, including a Ukrainian fighter jet, Obama said it was “not possible for these separatists to function the way they’re functioning . . . without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.” Russian President Vladimir Putin “has the most control over that situation, and so far at least, he has not exercised it,” Obama said. He spoke after U.S. officials disclosed a preliminary intelligence assessment indicating that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was likely shot down by pro-Russian separatists with an SA-11 missile. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that was previously identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner. As emergency workers continue to search for victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 after it was shot down near the Russian border, world leaders are calling for a cease-fire in Ukraine. (AP) In public statements, senior members of the administration from the president down did not specify the perpetrators of the shootdown, although they made it clear that the rebels are the likeliest suspects. Because of the “technical complexity” of the Russian-made surface-to-air missile system, “it is impossible to rule out Russian technical assistance” to the separatists in operating it, Samantha Power , the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told the U.N. Security Council earlier Friday. Separately, military and intelligence officials said Friday that the United States has gathered a significant body of evidence that Ukrainian separatists have been trained on Russian territory in recent weeks to fire antiaircraft missiles. Obama identified the American victim on the plane as Quinn Lucas Schansman, a dual U.S.-Dutch national who reportedly lived in Amsterdam. He called for “a credible international investigation” into the tragedy and urged Russia to cooperate with it. As the shootdown sent the Ukraine war into the realm of international crisis, Obama called it a “global tragedy,” saying that “it is not going to be localized; it is not going to be contained.” He joined calls for an international investigation and said investigators from the FBI and National Transportation Safety Board have already been dispatched. At an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting Friday morning, Power was much more direct in holding Russia responsible for the shootdown, detailing the volume of weapons and other assistance that Moscow has provided to the separatists. “Russia can end this war,” she said. “Russia must end this war.” Among the 298 victims, Power said, were 80 children and three listed on the passenger manifest as infants. In response, Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin did not directly address charges that Moscow bears responsibility and was complicit in the missile attack. Agreeing that an international investigation is needed, Churkin criticized those who he said are “trying to prejudge the outcome with broad statements and insinuations,” and he accused the Ukrainian government of failing to warn international aviation to avoid the conflict area in eastern Ukraine. “Why did Ukrainian aviation dispatchers send [the Malaysian plane] to an area of strife, where there were antiaircraft systems in operation?” he asked. By continuing its military offensive to dislodge the separatists, Ukraine “chose the wrong path, and their Western colleagues supported them,” Churkin said. “I’m talking about the United States; they actually pushed them to escalate,” he said, and now “they are trying to lay the blame on Russia.” Britain, which lost nine citizens in the crash and called for the emergency Security Council meeting, demanded an independent international investigation. “The immediate priority has to be for investigators to gain access to the crash site,” British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant said. “There must be no interfering or tampering with the evidence.” As the council session continued, and before any Russian response, most representatives concentrated on the need for an immediate cease-fire in eastern Ukraine and an independent probe. Many indirectly accused Russia of responsibility for the separatists’ actions, although China cautioned member nations not to “jump to any conclusions . . . or trade accusations.” Speaking later in the White House briefing room, Obama said it was “too early for us to be able to guess what the intentions were of those who might have launched” the missile. “What we know right now, what we have confidence in saying right now, is that a surface-to-air missile was fired, and this is what brought the jet down. . . . That shot was taken within territory that was controlled by the Russian-backed separatists.” The identities of “what individuals or groups of personnel ordered” the strike, he said, are “still subject to additional information that we’re going to be gathering.” But after months of conflict in Ukraine, the shootdown should “snap everyone’s head” to action, he said. “We don’t have time for propaganda; we don’t have time for games.” “Time and again, Russia has refused to take the concrete steps necessary to de-escalate the situation,” Obama said. At least in public, the leaders of Germany, France and Britain expressed outrage over the downing of the airliner but were careful not to rush to judgment or publicly accuse Russia. Countries in the region considered more hawkish on Russia, however, were more willing to assign blame. “We are concerned over press reports that the Ukrainian side has captured phone conversation recordings indicating that pro-Russian separatists might be responsible for shooting the plane down,” the Polish Foreign Ministry said in a statement. The leaders of Britain and Germany were more cautious. “We have some information, but we need to find more information,” said British Prime Minister David Cameron. He called for an proper international investigation but added, “until we know more, it’s not really possible to say more.” German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday pressed Russia to work harder toward a political solution in the Ukrainian conflict. But she also drew a line between the Russians and the separatists. “We’re assuming that the Russian president of course has an influence on Russian separatists,” Merkel told reporters in Berlin. “But still one has to differentiate between the separatists and the Russian government.” On Wednesday, both the United States and European Union slapped new sanctions on Russia, but the European moves were significantly less stinging. Suggesting Friday that she was in no rush to go further, Merkel called Wednesday’s move “an adequate response to what happened in the past few days.” But she also noted that the E.U. decision had left open the door to “act on a new level” if necessary. As the day wore on, and particularly after the Security Council meeting, the rhetoric grew somewhat harsher. “Those who are responsible for this would forfeit their right to claim their own concerns in the name of humanity,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said in Mexico City. European governments have been more reluctant than the Americans to slap tougher sanctions on the Russians largely due to Moscow’s economic clout in the region. Should the pro-Russian separatists — with the direct or indirect aid of Russia — ultimately be proven responsible for the strike, analysts said the calculations in the region might change. Countries including Italy and Spain that have generally opposed strict measures will find it tougher to do so. Larger powers have shown a willingness to press the Russians, while acting at the same time to safeguard certain sectors of their domestic economies — finance in Britain, energy in Germany, military manufacturing in France — where the Russians remain influential. But they may be more willing to go out on a limb if the Russians are linked even indirectly to the shootdown. “It’s a game-changer because it’s very difficult to see how anyone in Europe can continue as business as usual,” said Jonathan Eyal, director of international security studies at the Royal United Services Institute in London. “This time we have our own European casualties. It’s not a theoretical conflict in which people we do not know are dying.” Yet other analysts insisted that the desire of the Europeans to sidestep truly forceful sanctions to protect their economies should not be underestimated. Just as vital to their calculations, analysts said, will be a desire not to take steps that could dramatically ratchet up tensions and prompt the Russians to respond by cutting off important energy supplies to the region. “How Europe reacts, we don’t know. It could go either way,” said Andrew Wilson, senior policy fellow in the London office of the European Council on Foreign Relations. Jakov Devcic, deputy bureau chief of the Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Kiev, a group associated with Merkel’s CDU party, said that in Europe, as in the United States, military intervention remained ruled out. But if the rebels are found to have filed the missile, Germany and the E.U. will consider further sanctions, including import bans on luxury goods and, as a second step, moves targeting Russian financial transactions. The U.S. intelligence assessment that rebels were responsible for the shootdown came as Ukrainian leaders stepped up their condemnation of Russia over the crash, calling for Moscow to be held accountable for allegedly supplying the missile system that they said was used by the rebels in eastern Ukraine. “This is a crime against humanity,” Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said, as he called for swift international justice. “All red lines have been already crossed. . . . We ask our international partners to call an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting and to [do] everything we can to stop this war: a war against Ukraine, a war against Europe, and after these terrorists shot down a Malaysian aircraft, this is a war against the world.” Yatsenyuk added: “Everyone is to be accountable and responsible. I mean everyone who supports these terrorists, including Russians and the Russian regime.” Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, addressing the nation early Friday, also blamed pro-Russian separatists and those he called their Russian masters for the downing of the Boeing 777 with 298 passengers and crew on board. The victims included “nearly 100 researchers and advocates” who were en route from Amsterdam via Kuala Lumpur to attend an AIDS conference in Australia, Obama said. “They were taken from us in a senseless act of violence,” he said. AIDS conference organizers have confirmed only seven names and said they think the number of people flying to the conference on the Malaysian flight could be much lower than 100. “War has gone beyond the territory of Ukraine,” Poroshenko said earlier. “Consequences of this war have already reached the whole world.” Russia and the separatists both denied any responsibility for the shootdown, pinning the blame instead on the Ukrainian government. But Poroshenko said recordings of what the Ukraine Security Service described as intercepted phone conversations between separatist rebels and Russian intelligence officials implicated them in the shootdown. The Security Service released new recordings Friday in which it said rebels discussed possessing and moving the Russian-made Buk missile launcher that Ukraine says shot down the airliner. The Ukrainian government released video purporting to show rebels moving a Buk antiaircraft missile system to the Russian border Friday from eastern Ukraine. The government claimed that the missile-launcher was missing one of its missiles. Neither the claims nor the authenticity of the video could be independently verified. Russia pushed back Friday, accusing Poroshenko of poisoning efforts to investigate the crash. A rebel leader on Thursday had briefly claimed responsibility for downing a plane that he described as a Ukrainian military aircraft. Soon after it was established that a commercial airliner had been shot down, the claim was removed. Ukraine’s top intelligence official said Friday that the plane crash was being investigated as a criminal case under Ukraine’s terrorism laws. Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, head of the Ukraine Security Service, said Ukraine now believes that the Boeing 777 was shot down by rebel forces using a Buk antiaircraft missile launcher that had recently been moved over the border from Russia. He said Ukraine has detained two Russian citizens who allegedly helped bring the missile launcher into Ukraine. Ukrainian intelligence services also observed rebels trying to move back into Russia a Buk launcher that had fired two missiles, he added. It was not immediately possible to independently verify the claims. “The terrorists are trying to hide the crime,” Nalyvaichenko said. The Ukraine Security Service on Friday released a second series of recordings of what it said were intercepted phone calls between pro-Russian separatists over the last few days, in which the voices describe being in possession of and moving the Buk missile launcher. In the first conversation, which the Security Service said took place on July 14, an alleged rebel called “Oleg” said he missed a plane flying above a village. “We already have the Buk,” a woman identified as “Oreon” told him. “We’ll be knocking it down.” The Security Service said that on additional tapes from July 17, rebels discuss moving the Buk launcher. “Where do we ship this beauty to, Nikolayevich?” asked an alleged rebel identified by the Security Service as “Buryat.” “It’s not necessary to hide it anywhere,” came the reply. The rebel identified as Nikolayevich, also known as “Khmuri,” also talked about stocks of other weapons and the rebels’ relationship with the Russians at one point. “The thing is, we have Grads, but no spotters,” he said, referring to the mobile, Russian-made multiple rocket launcher. “We are waiting. Supposedly Russia should strike from that side at their positions.” In recent months, the rebels have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using short-range surface-to-air missiles. Experts said such missiles probably could not reach a plane flying at 33,000 feet, the reported altitude of Flight 17. But Ukrainian authorities have said the rebels recently obtained Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missiles — a complex system using ground radar to guide a missile to its target. Experts said it requires expertise and training to operate. In Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Friday that the international community could not expect Russia to get the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine to lay down their arms. But Lavrov said he hoped that the OSCE would send monitors to the Russian-Ukrainian border before the end of the week. In an interview with Rossiya-24 television, he added that Russia was ready to guarantee the safety of those observers at Russia’s own border checkpoints but could make no promises about keeping them safe from bombardments from Ukraine, Interfax reported. Lavrov also accused Poroshenko of potentially poisoning the investigation of the plane crash by calling for a commission to look into it while also declaring it an act of terrorism. “Of course, attempts to claim that this was a terrorist act, so the Ukrainian researchers will be guided by this in their work — this is unacceptable, this pressure on the acts of the this commission,” Lavrov said. In an effort to cooperate with international investigations, Lavrov said, Russia would not accept the black box that rebels said they had recovered from the plane. “We are not going to take away these boxes,” he said. “We are not going to violate the rules existing with regard to this sort of cases within the international community.” Aleksey Komarov, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry, called for “a thorough investigation with the use of representatives from all the interested international organizations.” He alleged that, according to the information available to the Russians, a Ukrainian military Buk-M1 type air defense system capable of bringing down the jet as it cruised at 33,000 feet was stationed in the area near the crash. “Ukrainian Air Force planes armed with various types of missiles are constantly present in the Donetsk region airspace,” he said on Rossiya 24 TV. “This is an indisputable fact.” He said Kiev’s claims that these systems or planes did not shoot at airborne targets “raise serious doubts.” He added that “planes of the Russian Air Force did not fly in Russian regions bordering the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014.” The Ukrainians, however, have cited the purported intercepts and conflicting claims by the pro-Russian rebels, who have been operating with tactical Russian assistance, as evidence of their guilt. In recent days, the rebels, who have shot down numerous Ukrainian military aircraft using shorter-range missiles, claimed to have obtained more advanced antiaircraft missile systems. “Evidence and information we have as of now confirm that it was pro-Russian groups, and unfortunately this tragedy took the lives of 298 people,” Ihor Dolhov, Ukraine’s ambassador to NATO, told the BBC. Sergei Kavtaradze, a representative of the separatist militias, told Interfax on Friday that the purported recordings of intercepted phone calls amounted to “unprofessional propaganda.” Faiola reported from Berlin. Craig Whitlock, William Branigin, Ernesto Londoño, David Beard, Ashley Halsey III and Katie Zezima in Washington; Karoun Demirjian in Moscow; Griff Witte in London; Ferry Biedermann in Amsterdam; and Annie Gowen in Kuala Lampur contributed to this report. Source. I don't mind tweets, but at least, translate them please. It was already clarified that the OSCE wasn't shot at, but it was warning shots. I guess the OSCE saw it as necessary to clarify. Also, twitter has it's automatic translation service at the click of a button. Works great.
And where would that button be, since i can't see it?
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I am from the United States and will feel free to continue posting my opinions regarding our current political situation. Modding/warning people for their honestly held beliefs is unbecoming of a message board. This isn't a peer-reviewed journal. I don't need to 'put more effort into' my opinions.
Keep them on topic then. Take obamahating to the US Politics thread, they're misplaced here.
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On July 19 2014 04:16 johnbongham wrote: I am from the United States and will feel free to continue posting my opinions regarding our current political situation. Modding/warning people for their honestly held beliefs is unbecoming of a message board. This isn't a peer-reviewed journal. I don't need to 'put more effort into' my opinions.
This isn't the thread for that, read the box at the top of the page. Also you probably should put more effort into posting your opinions. While you may have a very valid point, if you're just going to write a single line about "obama sucks" to express that point, people aren't going to care and mods will get annoyed (rightfully so).
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On July 19 2014 04:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 04:09 Ghanburighan wrote: I guess the OSCE saw it as necessary to clarify. Also, twitter has it's automatic translation service at the click of a button. Works great.
I can't find that "button"...
Click on the tweet, then a small globe appears to the top right of the tweet. Hovering over it also brings about the text `view translation'.
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Ghanburighan, can you spoiler those huge sections of texts? Or at least, part of them?
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On July 19 2014 04:21 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 04:12 aksfjh wrote:On July 19 2014 04:09 Ghanburighan wrote: I guess the OSCE saw it as necessary to clarify. Also, twitter has it's automatic translation service at the click of a button. Works great.
I can't find that "button"... Click on the tweet, then a small globe appears to the top right of the tweet. Hovering over it also brings about the text `view translation'.
I don't know if it is an issue with my chrome, but the only thing top right of the tweet is "follow", no translation-button. Doesn't really matter, i just ignore future references in languages that i can't read.
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On July 19 2014 04:22 JinDesu wrote: Ghanburighan, can you spoiler those huge sections of texts? Or at least, part of them?
Which part, those are overview articles, they are just very dense news articles which discuss a lot of information.
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Spoiler that stuff or chop it if you leading to an article.
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