EPTMalaysian airliner shot down over Eastern Ukraine - Page 54
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In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards. Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread. Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
If you absolutely must respond to bad posts, do it in a civil fashion or your post does the thread just as little good. This is a difficult thread to moderate and despite our harsh rules the insults are still flying left and right. From this page onwards, continuous insulting - whether you are in the right or not - other posters for holding views contrary to your own will not be accepted. If you think someone is swallowing propaganda and incorrect information, you may either do your best to educate them or not post at all. Insults and ad hominem attacks (prohibited by TL's Ten Commandments) only serve to further clot up a thread that is already somewhat of a mess. We are doing our best to maintain quality in this thread and ensure that it can stay open. Posters repeatedly shitting on our efforts and the efforts of users adhering to the rules in this thread will be banned. If you have any questions about this policy or concerns regarding any specific poster feel free to PM me. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On July 20 2014 23:16 zeo wrote: Source that there was no Spanish traffic controller working in Kiev? Source other than a random twitter account that there was fighter jets in the air? If the western media can claim proof of a missile launch happening from the ground then surely someone else would be able to dig up good evidence of fighter jets flying after commercial jets. If there was radar evidence of said fighters then there would be more than one random Spanish person coming forward. | ||
radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On July 20 2014 23:22 zeo wrote: So your source is a known biased blog/website citing Ukranian media? The blog/website itself doesn't provide a link to the relevant statement, but you can find it on google with the right search terms. First you find a latino fox news report, and from there it links to "The Spain Report", a spanish online news site accessible to English readers. Then you find out that one of the editors of that news site contacted the Spanish embassy and received a response which they provided an image of on their facebook page. So it doesn't have anything to do with Ukrainian media, but it does reference some Ukrainian air traffic control sources. Spain Report FaceBook Page I guess for ease of access I'll just quote their translated reply here: + Show Spoiler + "This is not the first time we have been asked about him. This "Carlos" was also active during the Maidán revolution in Ukraine. We have no knowledge of "Carlos" having been in Ukraine. There is no record of his passing through the Consulate, and no one from the (relatively small) Spanish colony knows him. The airport where he supposedly worked for several years told us at the time that all of their air traffic controllers are Ukranian, and that in any case they have never employed any Spaniard for that or any other task. Furthermore, the last information he was posting before the airline tragedy was of the same sort. He was saying, for example, that he lived in Kiev and had been threatened by radical extreme-right elements. No Spaniard or national of another country—to my knowledge—has ever been threatened in this country." I hope the inclusion of facebook doesn't render this link illegitimate, since its from the editor of an online news site based in Spain. I know you can always say "well maybe it was faked, they're secretly in support of Ukraine", but I hope you at least realize that there is very little preventing us from saying the same thing about these dubious accusations from this anonymous air traffic controller. I at least wanted to provide a more legitimate source, hope that helps! | ||
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Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
There was more to the US involvement in WWI than the Lusitania. It helped turn public opinion against Germany, but did not immediately turn the US to war. The Zimmerman Telegram was more like that, since it proved that there might be a very real threat to the US mainland if they did not stop Germany but even then it was a very different political climate than now. I don't think the downing of MH17 is going to bring the Netherlands or any of the other countries who lost people into the war more than they already are. Sure, everybody's going to lay the hate on whoever's responsible, but I doubt that Ukraine stands to gain a significant advantage from this. | ||
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Sjokola
Netherlands800 Posts
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SCguineapig
Netherlands289 Posts
On July 21 2014 03:44 Sjokola wrote: I just found out a colleague of mine was on the plane. We weren't very close but it's just surreal. I just talked to her two weeks back about how excited she was to go on vacation and her promotion she just got... Bizarre. wow that sucks, my condolences. what I find stupid about this entire article typed down in the OP is that there isn't a single statement from our own prime minister yet most of the casualties were from our own soil. i guess the Netherlands aren't that important in terms of politics or militairy might in europe, but still, they could at least have included the statement of our minister. but anyway to the topic at hand, i think russia really is to blame, if the separatists win this war in ukraine they will probably be annexed by russia. Putin knows this and gives them weapons to make that all possible. but despite this airplane being taken down i don't see anyone taking action agains't russia. America will probably shout a barrage of insults at russia and cry out for sanctions but in europe we are dependant on russia in terms of gass and oil, while america is not, so if we impose any sanctions russia might just close the pipelines to europe. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 21 2014 04:02 SCguineapig wrote: but in europe we are dependant on russia in terms of gass and oil, while america is not, so if we impose any sanctions russia might just close the pipelines to europe. Russia needs our money more than we need the resources. The Russian economy is already suffering from the sanctions (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jul/17/russian-stock-market-hit-by-new-ukraine-sanctions-business-live) and resource export is what the whole country is surviving on. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
As quite a few people already observed in the dutch (and international) media, we spend 8 billion a year on national defense and are being held hostage by a bunch of drunk farmers and mercenaries. Its an absolute disgrace. Not to even mention the total joke that is the 'information war'. There's only one side limiting access to the crash site and its the russians. This is Syria all over again where they'll continue to obfuscate, delay and destroy evidence till no irrefutable proof can be produced anymore and then go 'well, its not 100% sure, so what are you going to do?'. Its beyond my comprehension that anyone buys into this narrative. | ||
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Tribute
United States146 Posts
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On July 21 2014 05:06 Derez wrote: This girl was 2 years below me in my high school. As quite a few people already observed in the dutch (and international) media, we spend 8 billion a year on national defense and are being held hostage by a bunch of drunk farmers and mercenaries. Its an absolute disgrace. Not to even mention the total joke that is the 'information war'. There's only one side limiting access to the crash site and its the russians. This is Syria all over again where they'll continue to obfuscate, delay and destroy evidence till no irrefutable proof can be produced anymore and then go 'well, its not 100% sure, so what are you going to do?'. Its beyond my comprehension that anyone buys into this narrative. "Spent long days testing anti-cancer and Alzheimer’s drugs" Taking into account her and 100+ people going to the AIDS conference, this plane was filled with so many people who were not only totally innocent but spent their lives trying to help others. Makes what is clearly already tragic all the more tragic. So amazingly annoying... | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 21 2014 05:56 DannyJ wrote: "Spent long days testing anti-cancer and Alzheimer’s drugs" Taking into account this 100+ people going to the AIDS conference, this plane was filled with so many people who were not only totally innocent but spent their lives trying to help others. Makes what is clearly already tragic all the more tragic. So amazingly annoying... I worked in an HIV research lab this past summer, and I know one of the labs we were collaborating with was in the Netherlands. I'm afraid to check if there are any familiar names among the victims. | ||
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Evil_Monkey_
Denmark296 Posts
On another note, a funny fact is that both the conflict with Israel-Palestine & Russia-Ukraine were started off by Malaysian Airline plan disasters. Anyway, all this could just be down to shit happens and even if some of this stuff is part of a huge conspiracy, people knowing won't change much. | ||
Falling
Canada11466 Posts
Anyway, all this could just be down to shit happens I'd go with this one. Else you seem to be suggesting Darth Sidious levels of Xanatos Gambits, if not a full on Gambit Roulette. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
On July 20 2014 23:04 zeo wrote: The only pile that is building up is the ever growing pile of baseless accusations and finger pointing. Facts and fact-checking are becoming relics of the past on this forum. I like how you claim "facts and fact-checking are becoming relics of the past". We have been posting information from various NEUTRAL sources while you have nothing. The very act of posting sources is a fact check fyi. You remind me of the Intelligent Movement guys. Deny every single piece of fact that was presented in your eyes as "not enough". Guess what? Your "not enough" will apply to every single thing we show/present, so you might as well stop trying to act neutral and admit your a pro-russian poster. Your history speaks for yourself, you speak of respect for the families, your a hypocrite. Your denying the truth, the fact that mounting evidence gathered by various neutral sources points towards the russian-backed separatist being the ones who shot down MH17 with the excuse of "not enough" or "we dont know who did it". You seriously disgust me as a failure of a person to even think/accept evidence of anything contrary to your wishes and your talking of "respect" when you obviously lack any. This will be my last post dealing with you. I only hope you stop trying to force feed your biased opinions down everyone's throat without a NEUTRAL source, which i seriously doubt you have. I am sorry for this rant, but this is really annoying me because of how this incident is very close to my heart. I have personally taken a lot of MH flights, so have my family as I am from Singapore. | ||
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Hazzyboy
Estonia555 Posts
As I said before it's a repeat of MH370 - where one version turns into totally different just after couple weeks and investigation doesn't provide any real answers to what happened. P.S. Mind this in history whenever an accidental shot down happens - whoever did it always confess after some time. Again if it was accidental there is not much you can blame during a possible military operation or defense. | ||
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micronesia
United States24765 Posts
On July 21 2014 10:20 Hazzyboy wrote: P.S. Mind this in history whenever an accidental shot down happens - whoever did it always confess after some time. Again if it was accidental there is not much you can blame during a possible military operation or defense. I don't understand this line of thinking (the part about how it's an accident so not much you can blame)... People who shouldn't have such advanced technology are given the technology. They lack the training, or even some of the components necessary to use it properly. They shoot down a commercial airliner carrying civilians and squawking that it is a civilian plane. The group who used the equipment so irresponsibly, and the people who supplied this group so inappropriately are both heavily to blame. | ||
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Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
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mainerd
United States347 Posts
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On July 21 2014 10:20 Hazzyboy wrote: From day one nothing changed and looks like won't. Was reading through news and found a Ukrainian media posting the supposed photo of Buk which has one missing missile and getting transported on a truck to Russian border. Buk has a number #312 and I decided to check who had such a BUK in their arsenal Russia or Ukraine and was baffled why would own media post so incompetent information about a picture of own BUK and claim it's Russian. There is an online database of Buk missile launchers? | ||
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