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On July 20 2014 23:10 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 22:58 Aveng3r wrote:On July 20 2014 22:22 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:55 radiatoren wrote:On July 20 2014 21:43 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:33 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 21:23 zeo wrote:
Opinion piece =\= fact.
The fact that he uses the laughable 'leaked recording', which if you post it here in this thread gets you banned as a fact, should give you an idea of the kind of evidance these warmongers have. People like you make me sick. Evidence is mounting. Luckily, shooting down an international airliner, albeit by mistake, is very hard to cover up. Instead you go and ask for "sources" only to discredit each and every piece of evidence that is handed to you. Lets turn the tables here. Can you even present a single piece of credible information that suggests that someone else than Russian backed rebel thugs brought down the plane by mistake? I'm sorry, asking for sources makes you sick? If they can't come out with things that cannpt be easily debunked they shouldn't be comming out with them at all. We don't really know anything. US and Russian intelegance agency's can claim something is there when it really isn't. We both know they both lie, and until they give us direct papers, pictures and evidance stating this and this happened because that. Don't believe them. Wait for evidance, because for now there isn't any. But when both claim the plane was shot down by ground-to-air missiles, that seems fairly certain. Who the blame befalls will never satisfy your standard of proof. It has been postulated that western intelligence have watched several advanced weapons crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine after the border was siezed. There has been unconfirmed information about a pro-russian envoy missing a missile, leaving for Russia. There has been another of SBUs unconfirmed recordings released that could very well be true. There has been official complaints about the pro-russians denying access to the crash sites for days. Looking from the outside the indices are starting to stack up in support of a certain conclusion. If you are refering to the video or picture of a BUK system moving somewhere on youtube (which I think you are). There are BUK missile systems with three and two missiles. The Ukrainian army has both (that is to say all three types) so there is no real proof when the video was taken or indeed where. Its not there are Russian flags on the thing. I could download that video and reupload it with the title 'Russian buk in Luxembourg on its way to Paris' and people would believe it. Its gotten that bad. But throw enough misinformation around and the layman will think 'well it can't all be propaganda'. The fact remains. There is no evidance. you are in laughable denial regarding the ever-growing pile of evidence that rest of the world has gathered. time to wake up pal. The only pile that is building up is the ever growing pile of baseless accusations and finger pointing. Facts and fact-checking are becoming relics of the past on this forum. Yeah like when you posted this: Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 05:28 zeo wrote:
A Spanish air-traffic controller in Kiev saying that the 777 was followed by two fighter jets minutes before it was shot down. On his account he goes on to say that soon after, all foreigners were escorted out and radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Which then turned out to be a spoonfed lie courtesy of the Russian propaganda machine. Needless to say, your ability to gauge fact versus fiction is clearly suspect.
Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you at all, just curious.
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On July 20 2014 23:13 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 23:10 farvacola wrote:On July 20 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 22:58 Aveng3r wrote:On July 20 2014 22:22 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:55 radiatoren wrote:On July 20 2014 21:43 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:33 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 21:23 zeo wrote:
Opinion piece =\= fact.
The fact that he uses the laughable 'leaked recording', which if you post it here in this thread gets you banned as a fact, should give you an idea of the kind of evidance these warmongers have. People like you make me sick. Evidence is mounting. Luckily, shooting down an international airliner, albeit by mistake, is very hard to cover up. Instead you go and ask for "sources" only to discredit each and every piece of evidence that is handed to you. Lets turn the tables here. Can you even present a single piece of credible information that suggests that someone else than Russian backed rebel thugs brought down the plane by mistake? I'm sorry, asking for sources makes you sick? If they can't come out with things that cannpt be easily debunked they shouldn't be comming out with them at all. We don't really know anything. US and Russian intelegance agency's can claim something is there when it really isn't. We both know they both lie, and until they give us direct papers, pictures and evidance stating this and this happened because that. Don't believe them. Wait for evidance, because for now there isn't any. But when both claim the plane was shot down by ground-to-air missiles, that seems fairly certain. Who the blame befalls will never satisfy your standard of proof. It has been postulated that western intelligence have watched several advanced weapons crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine after the border was siezed. There has been unconfirmed information about a pro-russian envoy missing a missile, leaving for Russia. There has been another of SBUs unconfirmed recordings released that could very well be true. There has been official complaints about the pro-russians denying access to the crash sites for days. Looking from the outside the indices are starting to stack up in support of a certain conclusion. If you are refering to the video or picture of a BUK system moving somewhere on youtube (which I think you are). There are BUK missile systems with three and two missiles. The Ukrainian army has both (that is to say all three types) so there is no real proof when the video was taken or indeed where. Its not there are Russian flags on the thing. I could download that video and reupload it with the title 'Russian buk in Luxembourg on its way to Paris' and people would believe it. Its gotten that bad. But throw enough misinformation around and the layman will think 'well it can't all be propaganda'. The fact remains. There is no evidance. you are in laughable denial regarding the ever-growing pile of evidence that rest of the world has gathered. time to wake up pal. The only pile that is building up is the ever growing pile of baseless accusations and finger pointing. Facts and fact-checking are becoming relics of the past on this forum. Yeah like when you posted this: On July 18 2014 05:28 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/spainbuca/status/489813837013848065A Spanish air-traffic controller in Kiev saying that the 777 was followed by two fighter jets minutes before it was shot down. On his account he goes on to say that soon after, all foreigners were escorted out and radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Which then turned out to be a spoonfed lie courtesy of the Russian propaganda machine. Needless to say, your ability to gauge fact versus fiction is clearly suspect. Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you at all, just curious.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/462231-malaysian-airliner-shot-down-over-eastern-ukraine?page=17#336
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On July 20 2014 23:10 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 22:58 Aveng3r wrote:On July 20 2014 22:22 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:55 radiatoren wrote:On July 20 2014 21:43 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:33 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 21:23 zeo wrote:
Opinion piece =\= fact.
The fact that he uses the laughable 'leaked recording', which if you post it here in this thread gets you banned as a fact, should give you an idea of the kind of evidance these warmongers have. People like you make me sick. Evidence is mounting. Luckily, shooting down an international airliner, albeit by mistake, is very hard to cover up. Instead you go and ask for "sources" only to discredit each and every piece of evidence that is handed to you. Lets turn the tables here. Can you even present a single piece of credible information that suggests that someone else than Russian backed rebel thugs brought down the plane by mistake? I'm sorry, asking for sources makes you sick? If they can't come out with things that cannpt be easily debunked they shouldn't be comming out with them at all. We don't really know anything. US and Russian intelegance agency's can claim something is there when it really isn't. We both know they both lie, and until they give us direct papers, pictures and evidance stating this and this happened because that. Don't believe them. Wait for evidance, because for now there isn't any. But when both claim the plane was shot down by ground-to-air missiles, that seems fairly certain. Who the blame befalls will never satisfy your standard of proof. It has been postulated that western intelligence have watched several advanced weapons crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine after the border was siezed. There has been unconfirmed information about a pro-russian envoy missing a missile, leaving for Russia. There has been another of SBUs unconfirmed recordings released that could very well be true. There has been official complaints about the pro-russians denying access to the crash sites for days. Looking from the outside the indices are starting to stack up in support of a certain conclusion. If you are refering to the video or picture of a BUK system moving somewhere on youtube (which I think you are). There are BUK missile systems with three and two missiles. The Ukrainian army has both (that is to say all three types) so there is no real proof when the video was taken or indeed where. Its not there are Russian flags on the thing. I could download that video and reupload it with the title 'Russian buk in Luxembourg on its way to Paris' and people would believe it. Its gotten that bad. But throw enough misinformation around and the layman will think 'well it can't all be propaganda'. The fact remains. There is no evidance. you are in laughable denial regarding the ever-growing pile of evidence that rest of the world has gathered. time to wake up pal. The only pile that is building up is the ever growing pile of baseless accusations and finger pointing. Facts and fact-checking are becoming relics of the past on this forum. Yeah like when you posted this: Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 05:28 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/spainbuca/status/489813837013848065A Spanish air-traffic controller in Kiev saying that the 777 was followed by two fighter jets minutes before it was shot down. On his account he goes on to say that soon after, all foreigners were escorted out and radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Which then turned out to be a spoonfed lie courtesy of the Russian propaganda machine. Needless to say, your ability to gauge fact versus fiction is clearly suspect.
Source that there was no Spanish traffic controller working in Kiev?
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On July 20 2014 23:16 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 23:10 farvacola wrote:On July 20 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 22:58 Aveng3r wrote:On July 20 2014 22:22 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:55 radiatoren wrote:On July 20 2014 21:43 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:33 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 21:23 zeo wrote:
Opinion piece =\= fact.
The fact that he uses the laughable 'leaked recording', which if you post it here in this thread gets you banned as a fact, should give you an idea of the kind of evidance these warmongers have. People like you make me sick. Evidence is mounting. Luckily, shooting down an international airliner, albeit by mistake, is very hard to cover up. Instead you go and ask for "sources" only to discredit each and every piece of evidence that is handed to you. Lets turn the tables here. Can you even present a single piece of credible information that suggests that someone else than Russian backed rebel thugs brought down the plane by mistake? I'm sorry, asking for sources makes you sick? If they can't come out with things that cannpt be easily debunked they shouldn't be comming out with them at all. We don't really know anything. US and Russian intelegance agency's can claim something is there when it really isn't. We both know they both lie, and until they give us direct papers, pictures and evidance stating this and this happened because that. Don't believe them. Wait for evidance, because for now there isn't any. But when both claim the plane was shot down by ground-to-air missiles, that seems fairly certain. Who the blame befalls will never satisfy your standard of proof. It has been postulated that western intelligence have watched several advanced weapons crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine after the border was siezed. There has been unconfirmed information about a pro-russian envoy missing a missile, leaving for Russia. There has been another of SBUs unconfirmed recordings released that could very well be true. There has been official complaints about the pro-russians denying access to the crash sites for days. Looking from the outside the indices are starting to stack up in support of a certain conclusion. If you are refering to the video or picture of a BUK system moving somewhere on youtube (which I think you are). There are BUK missile systems with three and two missiles. The Ukrainian army has both (that is to say all three types) so there is no real proof when the video was taken or indeed where. Its not there are Russian flags on the thing. I could download that video and reupload it with the title 'Russian buk in Luxembourg on its way to Paris' and people would believe it. Its gotten that bad. But throw enough misinformation around and the layman will think 'well it can't all be propaganda'. The fact remains. There is no evidance. you are in laughable denial regarding the ever-growing pile of evidence that rest of the world has gathered. time to wake up pal. The only pile that is building up is the ever growing pile of baseless accusations and finger pointing. Facts and fact-checking are becoming relics of the past on this forum. Yeah like when you posted this: On July 18 2014 05:28 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/spainbuca/status/489813837013848065A Spanish air-traffic controller in Kiev saying that the 777 was followed by two fighter jets minutes before it was shot down. On his account he goes on to say that soon after, all foreigners were escorted out and radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Which then turned out to be a spoonfed lie courtesy of the Russian propaganda machine. Needless to say, your ability to gauge fact versus fiction is clearly suspect. Source that there was no Spanish traffic controller working in Kiev?
One of the first of the various bizarre theories to emerge from the Russian media's coverage of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 downing was also one of the most outlandish: the Tale of the Spanish Dispatcher.
The night of the disaster, a certain "Carlos," presenting himself as a Spanish air traffic controller working in Kiev, began Tweeting in Spanish that Ukrainian jets, rather than separatists on the ground, had shot down the passenger plane. Russian media took the bait: "Spanish dispatcher: Two Ukrainian warplanes were near the Boeing before its disappearance," read the headline on the Kremlin's most propagandistic news outlet, Russia Today. Several major news outlets also picked up the story with similar headlines, including state channel Rossiya 24, the Defense Ministry's Zvezda channel, and popular newspapers like Komsomolskaya Pravda and Rossiiskaya Gazeta, the official mouthpiece of the Russian government. Others even speculated that Ukrainian forces had been trying to shoot down the Russian presidential jet, which supposedly had crossed paths with MH17 earlier that day. Between news broadcasts, Rossiya 24 added fuel to the fire by airing a segment about Siberian Air Flight 1812, which Ukraine admitted was accidentally shot down by its fighter jets over the Black Sea in 2001.
By the next day, Ukrainian and Western journalists had revealed "Carlos's" account, which has since been deleted, to be a fake. (The Spanish embassy said this Twitter user had been active during the Kiev protests but denied that any Spanish air traffic controller was in Ukraine.) Even Igor Korotchenko, editor of the Russian journal National Defense, argued the plane had not been shot down by fighter jets. No matter. The work was done: the narrative of events had already been muddied.
The Infowar Rages on in Moscow.
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On July 20 2014 23:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 23:13 Conti wrote:On July 20 2014 23:10 farvacola wrote:On July 20 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 22:58 Aveng3r wrote:On July 20 2014 22:22 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:55 radiatoren wrote:On July 20 2014 21:43 zeo wrote:On July 20 2014 21:33 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 21:23 zeo wrote:
Opinion piece =\= fact.
The fact that he uses the laughable 'leaked recording', which if you post it here in this thread gets you banned as a fact, should give you an idea of the kind of evidance these warmongers have. People like you make me sick. Evidence is mounting. Luckily, shooting down an international airliner, albeit by mistake, is very hard to cover up. Instead you go and ask for "sources" only to discredit each and every piece of evidence that is handed to you. Lets turn the tables here. Can you even present a single piece of credible information that suggests that someone else than Russian backed rebel thugs brought down the plane by mistake? I'm sorry, asking for sources makes you sick? If they can't come out with things that cannpt be easily debunked they shouldn't be comming out with them at all. We don't really know anything. US and Russian intelegance agency's can claim something is there when it really isn't. We both know they both lie, and until they give us direct papers, pictures and evidance stating this and this happened because that. Don't believe them. Wait for evidance, because for now there isn't any. But when both claim the plane was shot down by ground-to-air missiles, that seems fairly certain. Who the blame befalls will never satisfy your standard of proof. It has been postulated that western intelligence have watched several advanced weapons crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine after the border was siezed. There has been unconfirmed information about a pro-russian envoy missing a missile, leaving for Russia. There has been another of SBUs unconfirmed recordings released that could very well be true. There has been official complaints about the pro-russians denying access to the crash sites for days. Looking from the outside the indices are starting to stack up in support of a certain conclusion. If you are refering to the video or picture of a BUK system moving somewhere on youtube (which I think you are). There are BUK missile systems with three and two missiles. The Ukrainian army has both (that is to say all three types) so there is no real proof when the video was taken or indeed where. Its not there are Russian flags on the thing. I could download that video and reupload it with the title 'Russian buk in Luxembourg on its way to Paris' and people would believe it. Its gotten that bad. But throw enough misinformation around and the layman will think 'well it can't all be propaganda'. The fact remains. There is no evidance. you are in laughable denial regarding the ever-growing pile of evidence that rest of the world has gathered. time to wake up pal. The only pile that is building up is the ever growing pile of baseless accusations and finger pointing. Facts and fact-checking are becoming relics of the past on this forum. Yeah like when you posted this: On July 18 2014 05:28 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/spainbuca/status/489813837013848065A Spanish air-traffic controller in Kiev saying that the 777 was followed by two fighter jets minutes before it was shot down. On his account he goes on to say that soon after, all foreigners were escorted out and radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down. Which then turned out to be a spoonfed lie courtesy of the Russian propaganda machine. Needless to say, your ability to gauge fact versus fiction is clearly suspect. Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you at all, just curious. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/462231-malaysian-airliner-shot-down-over-eastern-ukraine?page=17#336
Oh, I knew about the twitter account and that it suddenly got closed down. I was asking for sources showing that it wasn't real and/or propaganda.
Edit: Ah, thanks!
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So your source is a known biased blog/website citing Ukranian media?
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I knew it wasn't going to convince you, Zeo; I'm posting it so that you'll do your little "everything Western is biased" dance for everyone to see. If you knew anything about FP, you'd know that the periodical tends to be hyper-critical of US foreign policy and is lauded by pretty much everyone as as unbiased as it gets. Luckily, you took the bait and cried wolf yet again. Kudos for remaining consistent.
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First of all, condolences to the relatives and friends of the families, it is a damnable tragedy, and probably there is no amount of words that would bring comfort. I don't want to get into who, why and when, because it would be a here-forbidden speculation, but I hope that the perperators will be brought to justice.
On the other hand, from my experience after the Polish Air Force TU-154M crash in 2010 which happened in Smolensk, Russia, I really doubt in quick end of investigation. Needless to say, that Poland after over 4 years, did not receive its property (wreckage) back, not to even mention original mediums from flight recorders, because supposedly there is still ongoing investigation on the crash in Russia. If the flight recorders have been moved to Russia already, as it is being reported, then I really hope it won't be a repeat of the above case. However I am very sceptical about it.
The only "good" thing that may come out of this, is the fact that the eyes of the world are pinned on the Eastern Ukraine, and hopefully the whole insurgency/war zone will disperse under the international pressure, after civilians from various countries came under fire.
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On July 20 2014 23:27 farvacola wrote:
I knew it wasn't going to convince you, Zeo; I'm posting it so that you'll do your little "everything Western is biased" dance for everyone to see. If you knew anything about FP, you'd know that the periodical tends to be hyper-critical of US foreign policy and is lauded by pretty much everyone as as unbiased as it gets. Luckily, you took the bait and cried wolf yet again. Kudos for remaining consistent.
Well I'm sure they are unbiased because you said so. Forget that every single article about Russia is negative while singing praises for whoever is sitting in Kiev. Still the fact remains that its an opinion piece without sources.
Maybe you should read the mod note about posting Ukranian sources. That tweet was posted well before the mod note came up and had the mod note come up before that it would not have been posted. There was absolutely nothing wrong with posting news as it came to light before page 27. Regardless wether or not that twitter exists it would first have to go through news.
The fact that you want to take something posted before 27 and use it as justification for something after 27 is laughable.
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On July 20 2014 23:05 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess of where the Boeing 777 was flying. The disclosure deepens the mystery of why Ukrainian aviation officials failed to entirely close off the airspace in the Donetsk region, where the jet was flying when it was shot down, killing all 298 people on board. Three Buk-M1 medium-range antiaircraft systems, also known as the SA-11 Gadfly under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization designation, were known to be in rebel hands as early as July 14, said Vitaly Nayda, the head of the counterintelligence division of Ukraine's security service. Ukraine imposed a partial flight ban in the region on flights below 26,000 feet on July 1, and raised the ceiling of the exclusion area to 32,000 feet on July 14. The Malaysia Airlines plane was flying at 33,000 feet. The altitude restrictions on commercial flights were raised after rebel separatists backed by Moscow on July 14 shot down a Ukrainian military Antonov An-26 transport plane with eight people on board over the skies of the Luhansk region. The aircraft was flying at 21,000 feet. Source: http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508Show nested quote +the cash-strapped Ukrainian government was receiving overflight fees for each commercial flight above its territory and therefore had a financial incentive to keep the airspace open as long as possible. Source: http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/ukraine-responsible-for-airspace-safety-iata-20140720-zuzmp.htmlOn a brighter note: Dutch cyclist avoided death twice: Rebooked tickets to both MH17 and MH370. Source: http://abcnews.go.com/International/dutch-cyclist-avoids-tragedy-scheduled-doomed-flights/story?id=24632968
In their defence, commercial planes fly over other conflict zones such as israel all the time and nothing ever happens. That's because people with at least half a brain actually check to see what planes are squawking before attacking them. Furthermore, it is illegal to attack planes without attempting to communicate with and warn them first. But the rebels are just scum who do not follow proper rules of engagement (which makes them terrorists).
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On July 20 2014 23:39 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 23:27 farvacola wrote:
I knew it wasn't going to convince you, Zeo; I'm posting it so that you'll do your little "everything Western is biased" dance for everyone to see. If you knew anything about FP, you'd know that the periodical tends to be hyper-critical of US foreign policy and is lauded by pretty much everyone as as unbiased as it gets. Luckily, you took the bait and cried wolf yet again. Kudos for remaining consistent. Well I'm sure they are unbiased because you said so. Forget that every single article about Russia is negative while singing praises for whoever is sitting in Kiev. Still the fact remains that its an opinion piece without sources. Maybe you should read the mod note about posting Ukranian sources.
EVERYBODY else in this thread seems to realize that you are full of shit. please take the hint and stop trying to piss everyone off.
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WASHINGTON -- U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry didn't hold back Sunday in his criticism of the crash site cleanup after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down in eastern Ukraine Thursday. Pro-Russian separatists in the area have reportedly removed nearly 200 bodies and denied access to international investigators.
"Drunken -- I mean literally, drunken -- separatist soldiers are piling bodies into trucks unceremoniously and disturbing the evidence," Kerry said on "Fox News Sunday."
"Airplane parts have been removed," Kerry continued. "We need full access and this is a moment of truth for Russia. Some of the leaders of the separatists are Russians. Russia arms these separatists. Russia trains these separatists. Russia supports these separatists. Russia has refused to call on them publicly to do the things that need to be done."
A rebel leader said Sunday that recovered bodies have been loaded into refrigerated train cars for holding until an international aviation delegation arrives.
Fox host Chris Wallace pressed Kerry on whether President Barack Obama's administration would impose tougher penalties on Russia or increase military assistance to Ukraine, since Kerry and other officials have strongly implied that Russian President Vladimir Putin bears blame for the tragedy. The Pentagon has said that Russians likely helped the separatists in eastern Ukrainian obtain and operate the missile system that allegedly shot down the plane.
Kerry said additional sanctions are possible.
Source
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What possible benefit could there be for either side to do this on purpose?
Ukraine isn't going to get any more support than they've already been getting from their allies. Whatever extra sympathy votes they do get (well, they don't actually get any, their enemies get hate points though so I guess in some people's warped minds that could conceivably count) they get at an extreme risk of everything unraveling under their feet if they were found out to be responsible.
Russia and the separatists have no discernible benefit from downing some random Malaysian airliner craft doing its route, not even as an outlandish false flag operation.
Separatists have been receiving/commandeering some pretty big guns. They've also been using them to down several planes over the last few weeks. They're also largely untrained, or at least it's likely that some units operating some of these weapons have received minimal training to do so and aren't part of an organized military (since there may be units that are properly trained, and could recognize a damn airliner flying at 35k ft for what it is, ie not a military craft).
Ukrainians haven't been firing at airborne targets as far as I'm aware since the separatists have no airforce.
It would seem extremely improbable that anything other than an accident involving undertrained separatist personnel has happened here. Other such accidents have happened before, notably an American ship downing an Iranian commercial flight. The various social media gaffes, conversations, inexplicable delays to providing access to the site to involved foreign parties and so on just round out the, rather obvious, conclusion.
Stuff happens when people have access to big guns. It's a rarity but it does happen. I have no idea why even fervent supporters of the separatists (like this Zeo character) would have trouble admitting that, well, sure looks like a fuck up happened here. This isn't even a game changer at this point, not with the amount of published fuck ups perpetrated by various parties (mostly American ones get published of course).
But yeah, if it makes you feel better Zeo, sure go ahead and blame it on whoever suits you best. Wouldn't want you to become emotionally unstable and go join the actual fight so might as well count this as therapy!
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On July 21 2014 00:39 Taguchi wrote:
What possible benefit could there be for either side to do this on purpose?
I imagine it would be blaming the other side.
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On July 21 2014 00:52 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 00:39 Taguchi wrote:
What possible benefit could there be for either side to do this on purpose?
I imagine it would be blaming the other side.
And? They get to feel better? They're at war with each other, what actually changes here? No one's gonna admit anything, NATO isn't gonna act, Russia isn't gonna suddenly invade using this as the pretext. It'd be pointless to do this as a false flag operation.
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On July 21 2014 00:55 Taguchi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 00:52 SoSexy wrote:On July 21 2014 00:39 Taguchi wrote:
What possible benefit could there be for either side to do this on purpose?
I imagine it would be blaming the other side. And? They get to feel better? They're at war with each other, what actually changes here? No one's gonna admit anything, NATO isn't gonna act, Russia isn't gonna suddenly invade using this as the pretext. It'd be pointless to do this as a false flag operation.
See Lusitania.
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On July 21 2014 00:52 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 00:39 Taguchi wrote:
What possible benefit could there be for either side to do this on purpose?
I imagine it would be blaming the other side.
It would not be worth it. Kiev is not going to get military support either way, but stands to lose all support if they were caught. Russia has nothing to gain from intentionally shooting down the plane and they know it, but they have a lot to lose. A false flag op just does not make sense for either side.
One thing that pisses me off is that the perpetrators have not admitted the crime. Accidents happen, even horrific ones. If I were the commander in charge of the group who shot down the plane, the least I could do would be to admit it and submit myself to dutch or Malaysian authorities. If this had happened then people would say that they should not of had the weaponry in the first place, but at least they would not be completely condemned.
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The Ukrainian Security Services (SBU) has released more leaked audio, reportedly a conversation between Oleksandr Khodakovsky, commander of the separatist's Vostok battalion and various separatist fighters and staff members. The Vostok battalion is widely regarded as Moscow's main military presence in eastern Ukraine and has been trying to establish increased control of the situation on the ground in the last month or so.
We cannot verify the audio, though we have heard audio of Khodakovsky before and this sounds like him.
We've provided an excerpted transcript. This first excerpted conversation reportedly takes place at 17:53 local time on July 18th. Khodakovsky is asking his man to locate the black boxes:
Khodakovsky - Do it really quick. Urgently. Moscow asks where the boxes are... Who is there besides you? Are there Strelkov's guys?
"Oleksiy" - I don't know. Just now OSCE people came.
Khodakovsky- So, first of all they are interested in the fate of 'black boxes.' They must be under our control. Please, do this task, ok?
Another conversation, reportedly recorded on July 18th at 18:10 local time, between Khodakovsky and "Andriy".
Khodakovsky - I have a request for you. It is not my request. Our friends from high above are very much interested in the fate of the 'black boxes.' I mean people from Moscow.
There are two items -- Khmuryi, Strelok's [sic] head of intelligence, has one. Please, cooperate with the Ministry of Emergency. All that you find must not come into somebody else's hands. Only yours, or Strelkov's people or Khmuryi's, it doesn't matter...
And together with that guy from the Ministry of Emergency, Oleksiy, try to take everything that you can find... so that it doesn't get into somebody else's hands...
All those people that are coming, OSCE and so on....
A conversation 50 minutes later:
Oleksiy: Listen, they should look like some orange small barrels?
Khodakovsky - The hell I know? You know better...
Oleksiy: We found something, This is just a box -- satellite navigatuon block. It is written on it. [note - the SBU is being polite. The actual translation is "We found some sort of fucking crap. It's got 'satellite navigation' written on it" - The Interpreter]
Khodakovsky - Hide it anyway. Who knows how they are described.
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On July 21 2014 01:07 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 00:55 Taguchi wrote:On July 21 2014 00:52 SoSexy wrote:On July 21 2014 00:39 Taguchi wrote:
What possible benefit could there be for either side to do this on purpose?
I imagine it would be blaming the other side. And? They get to feel better? They're at war with each other, what actually changes here? No one's gonna admit anything, NATO isn't gonna act, Russia isn't gonna suddenly invade using this as the pretext. It'd be pointless to do this as a false flag operation. See Lusitania.
That was more or less a proper casus belli though, perpetrated by an already embattled world power that admitted to the act and even tried to justify it.
Not like a Malaysian Airlines flight randomly passing overhead at all.
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EPT
