Malaysian airliner shot down over Eastern Ukraine - Page 51

On July 20 2014 12:11 Nick_54 wrote:


Source? I figured a mod would read the top of the thread.

On July 20 2014 12:11 Nick_54 wrote:


Source? I figured a mod would read the top of the thread.

On July 20 2014 09:13 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Hmm I mean it kind of makes sense to blame Russia for providing the rebels with the Buk system and training but I still have the feeling that the majority of the people with that sentiment are hypocritical as hell. Most of the people on this forum come from western countries and most of our governments export arms that claim thousands of lives every year. So should we blame our own politicians for those deaths too or is it somehow different because maybe the weapons we sell don't kill 300 civilians in a day with lots of media attention but maybe 3 civilians each day of the year...?

Reports that credit cards have been looted from the victims of Malaysia Airlines MH17 have prompted Dutch banks to take “preventative measures” against possible fraud, the Dutch Banking Association said in a statement Saturday. International outrage has erupted over the treatment of the bodies and evidence in the 16-square-mile debris field of the plane that was shot down over contested Ukraine airspace Thursday.

Alexander Borodai, the prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, said Saturday that local residents may have used the credit cards of the victims. The victims’ next of kin will be reimbursed for any credit card “abuse,” according to the Dutch Banking Association. Of the 298 passengers who perished aboard MH17, 193 were Dutch.
Source.

The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.

The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists.

On July 20 2014 10:26 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:


We already know who fired it. The Rebels. The actual person who pulled the trigger, doubtful unless someone comes forward after being captured or something.

On July 20 2014 15:37 Nick_54 wrote:


Actually meant to quote this one. Do you have a neutral source like the thread rules says ? Just think we should all follow the same rules here.

US statement 20.07:

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors.

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems.

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft.

At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11. http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/mobile//statements/asmt-07192014.html#.U8t-pRInolQ.twitter

On July 20 2014 10:26 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:


We already know who fired it. The Rebels. The actual person who pulled the trigger, doubtful unless someone comes forward after being captured or something.

Evidence is mounting not only that the BUK that killed MH17 came from Russia, but that the firing on the airliner was either supervised or ordered, or even operated, by Russian personnel.

If this is the case, the “lone rebel with an itchy trigger finger” theory goes out the window, and the “Russia is running a reckless and undeclared air war inside Ukraine” theory comes into sharp focus. Suddenly, an act of terrorism becomes an act of interstate war, directed with subterfuge and deniability (what my colleague John Schindler has dubbed “Special War”) with the goal of dismembering the Ukrainian state.

Source

On July 20 2014 20:26 zeo wrote:

No, we do not know who fired it. There is absolutely no proof other than a party with extremely vested interests in the conflict known for intelegance masterpieces such as 'Iraq has WMDs' says so.

There is a disturbing trend of pointing fingers first, look for facts that back up xy world view later on this forum. It is extremely disrespectful to the people that died on that plane and their loved ones. They deserve to know exactly what happened.

On July 20 2014 20:38 darkness wrote:


I know you're pro-Russian but please don't be a terrorist supporter now. It's disgusting. All signs lead to separatists.

Example: http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5913089/did-this-ukrainian-rebel-commander-take-credit-for-shooting-down-the

Evidence that Kremlin-backed separatists in east Ukraine downed Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 is now so overwhelming as to rule out any other culprit, at least outside the imaginations of conspiracy theorists or professional Kremlin propagandists.

For months, Russian President Vladimir Putin has waged maskirovka warfare in east Ukraine - an old, Soviet-perfected model of destabilizing foreign countries which is characterized by dissimulation, misdirection and plausible deniability, all done with the use of arms-length proxies.

Putin, a former KGB lieutenant colonel, continues to maintain that he has nothing to do with the separatists even as their political leadership has lately visited Moscow begging for more materiel and even opened a satellite office there to coordinate their activities more closely with their master and patron. It also pays to remember that Putin denied invading and annexing Crimea - until he didn't.

U.S. officials, including one from the Defense Department, have confirmed to the Wall Street Journal that the separatists - many of whom are in fact Russian nationals - downed the commercial airliner over the skies of the separatist-controlled region of Donetsk on July 17 using the Buk anti-aircraft missile system. This is a Soviet-era, vehicle-mounted munition with a range of 46,000 feet. The MH17 was blown apart at an altitude of 33,000 feet.

The separatists, who have previously claimed credit for shooting down Ukrainian military planes and helicopters, said they haven't got the capability to hit an aircraft at the MH17's altitude. Except that they admitted, albeit privately and inadvertently, that they'd done just that.

The Ukrainian Security Service, or SBU, has leaked a series of what it alleges are intercepted phone conversations from the separatist camp. In one, recorded in the aftermath of the tragedy, a separatist commander named Igor Bezler (or "Bes," meaning "Demon") tells Colonel Vasyl Geranin, a man whom the SBU says is an officer of Russia's military intelligence agency, or GRU: "Just now a plane was hit and destroyed by the Minera Group," referring to a rebel unit.

A week ago, Bezler admitted in a recorded "press conference" held in Donetsk that separatists had received tanks and armored vehicles from Russia for the purpose of defending Slavyansk, a city that recently was retaken by Ukraine's military.

Western intelligence officials have told the Financial Times that they have judged the SBU intercepts to be genuine.

Defense experts say that there is no way ragtag insurgents could operate a surface-to-air missile as sophisticated as the Buk. But the rebels are not quite ragtag insurgents.

Their self-proclaimed military commander is a man named Col. Igor Strelkov (also known as Girkin). According to the European Union, which sanctioned him in April, Strelkov is also an officer of the GRU. This means that the entire anti-Kiev insurgency is not just pro-Russian in orientation but overseen and led by an outed Russian spy.

This is a crucial fact that has been obscured in much of the recent media coverage of the war for east Ukraine and just who's involved in waging it. Samantha Power, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said yesterday: "Russia can end this war." What she meant was, the separatists are a wholly owned, if not quite wholly operated, subsidiary of the Russian government.
Source.

On July 20 2014 20:38 Ghanburighan wrote:

On July 20 2014 21:18 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:

Why do you post this? It is a sensationalist biased blog with no value what so ever.
Maybe it is a good guiding principle to avoid sources with inflationary accusations of "terrorism", those tent to be horrible propaganda websites...

Tom Nichols is a professor of National Security Affairs at the U.S. Naval War College and an adjunct professor in the Harvard Extension School. He also taught at Dartmouth College, Georgetown University (where he also received his PhD), and other schools and lecture programs.

He is currently a Senior Associate of the Carnegie Council on Ethics and International Affairs, and a Fellow of the International History Institute at Boston University.

He has also been a Fellow of the International Security Program and the Project on Managing the Atom at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.

In his Washington days, Tom was a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a consultant to the U.S. government, and a research analyst for private industry. Later, he served as personal staff for foreign and defense affairs to the late U.S. Senator John Heinz of Pennsylvania.

On July 20 2014 21:23 zeo wrote:
Opinion piece =\= fact.

The fact that he uses the laughable 'leaked recording', which if you post it here in this thread gets you banned as a fact, should give you an idea of the kind of evidence these warmongers have.

Western intelligence officials have told the Financial Times that they have judged the SBU intercepts to be genuine.

On July 20 2014 21:24 Ghanburighan wrote:


Mostly because it was recommended by Edward Lucas from the Economist. But also because the writer is knowledgeable.