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On July 20 2014 06:09 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 06:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 06:05 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:[quote] Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview. I remember his name for some pretty extreme comments, but maybe im confusing the side then. Read my reply to yourself and to Anarchy and you'll get your explanation. Yep i've definitly mistaken you for someone else, sorry about that.
No problem man. But I was simply making the point that there really is no significant reason why Ukraine is soooo incredibly important to any real player except for political motivations. That goes for Russia a border away, and for the US despite it being half a world away. But I don't like how things are painted into a Lord of the Rings theme. Ukrainian politics are very famous for corruption and sleaziness. There's oligarchs in power and it's as bad as ever but somehow we portray Poroshenko as Gandalf + Jesus Christ simply because he's fighting against the Orcish insurgents with backing from Sauronic Russia.
No, I don't like Russian government policy and the Ukraine affair made me lose what little faith I had in them. As a country otherwise, there's nothing about Russia I like except old classical music and architecture and European military history. I have absolutely no reason to favor Russia. But I don't see things in black and white. That puts me in the minority, but I'm okay with that. Germany's one of the few involved parties that I'd say has any legitimacy to say anything on the matter, even despite the overwhelming US influence. Russia has none, and the US has about as much. We (US) aren't exactly good guys by any means, and certainly have huge political interests in this matter (our involvement says enough). It is true that Poroshenko is doing the only reasonable thing you can do when there is armed revolt (although we condemn leaders we don't like/support when they do the same lol), but he is full of crap whenever he utters anything for the obvious reason that it's often little more than wartime propaganda, which, being in a war, is what you can expect.
But I don't understand what an article previously posted in the thread as "pathological Russophobia in the west". Condemnation should not be coupled with self-righteousness and hatred. Then, it kills the legitimacy of the condemnation, because then it appears as a product of that hatred, rather than of legitimate intention to condemn foul behavior. It's silly really.
+ Show Spoiler +
But, I must apologize to the mobs on this forum. I can't jump on the Russophobic bandwagon, when 1) I have trouble hating an entire nation or religion or whatever with millions of very different people, 2) I see no reason to have burning enmity for anything, and 3) I've been a part of US things far, far worse than anything Russia's done in the recent past, and that's just considering direct stuff, so I've learned that being self-righteous is unbelievably stupid and arrogant, even when you represent a place that is one of the least to be acting like that. It's also why I like to call people out on that sort of thing, to possibly reconsider their misplaced hatred. It's different from being raised on media and video games and shit news and hating, with ludicrous self-righteousness, whoever is the bad guy in all this media like many people, my younger self included. "First take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." It took me almost losing my back to realize that.
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Support your troops and invade another country while saying its not your army. When you lose control over them try to accuse invaded country's government of shooting down civilian plane and blame them for everything that happend. Destroy remaining proof of your act of terror and let bodies decay. Seems logic Russian.
And they aren't rebels, they are Russians. And they should be invaded for the shit they've done, and will do in the future. Mark my words.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:05 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 04:25 sashkata wrote:
The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo Yeah. The rebels need to be held responsible by the west. This behavior by the Russians to destabilize the country and illegally invade Crimea cannot go unpunished. I would like the EU and NATO to take their responsibility and establish a corridor to the crash site by force if necessary. Then Russia must be held responsible for this incident and allow their arsenal of BUK batteries to be put under scrutiny. The more time that passes the likeliness of finding the team responsible for this accident decreases. Russia needs to be punished where it hurts. Crimea should be handed over to the Ukranians and enough NATO presence in the area must exist in order for Ukraine to be able to not extend the lease of the Russian fleet base in the Black Sea if they want to. The cold war is over and Russia lost. It seems like the time has come for Putin to be reminded by this. Thugs cannot be allowed to control the crash site. The whereabouts of the black box recorder must be released. If they are in Russia they must be handed over to independent investigators ASAP. What can NATO do? NATO is just the US, and its feeble puppet states in Europe. You are literally the modern-era "socii latini" to Washington. We practically own you when it comes to foreign policy and military affairs. But what country in NATO has a functional military besides the US? Certainly not Sweden lol. France, a little bit. NATO cannot do anything with the US, and if the US doesn't see such a thing feasible, then nothing will be done. But short of the US devoting most of its military with large-scale conscription, any aggression directed against Russia as you support will be a one-sided slaughter. What does Russia have to do with insurgents firing at the airliner? They gave no order to do it. Let's not twist the culpability of insurgents into Russophobia. What boggles my mind more is how incompetent the Ukrainian military is that civil war is still going on even with entirely overwhelming firepower and manpower. This war should have been done months ago. Do you condemn the US for all the harm and aggression and devastation it's caused just in the last decades that outdoes Russia by many magnitudes? I dare you to say anything. If you do say anything, you would be at least be fair, but your pride would be hurt. But if you're going to hate one devil and worship another, that's comically two-faced.
I'm not talking about an invasion of Russia. The UK and the Netherlands backed up by Polish troops could access the region via Poland in days. The mission would be to secure the site and stop the Russian "covert" support to the rebels in the region. Russia would be forced to back off or risk further escalation of the conflict.
As for Crimea. A combination of economic sanctions and making europe less dependent of russian oil and gas. Germany, I'm looking at you. Time to start your nuclear reactors again.
Increased NATO presence in the region and the black sea together with UN pressure could then force Russia from Crimea.
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Mexico2170 Posts
On July 20 2014 06:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 06:05 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview. I remember his name for some pretty extreme comments, but maybe im confusing the side then. Read my reply to yourself and to Anarchy and you'll get your explanation.
I don't know why i get the impression you are a very egocentric person...But i agree with you (on some things at least) there seems to be a lot of hate for russia right now, but obviously there won't be big consecuences as sadly as this is, because 1.- Even if the rebels are supported by russia (which im sure they are), russia itself didnt shot down the plane, it was a mistake, so something like recovering crimea or anything extreme is out of the questions. and 2.-people don't want another big international conflict, i don't think Russia, the US, and Europe will do anything extreme because that very well could end up in another world war.
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On July 20 2014 06:53 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 06:09 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 06:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 06:05 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:
[quote]
I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings.
It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview. I remember his name for some pretty extreme comments, but maybe im confusing the side then. Read my reply to yourself and to Anarchy and you'll get your explanation. Yep i've definitly mistaken you for someone else, sorry about that. No problem. But I was simply making the point that there really is no significant reason why Ukraine is soooo incredibly important to any real player except for political motivations. That goes for Russia a border away, and for the US despite it being half a world away. But I don't like how things are painted into a Lord of the Rings theme. Ukrainian politics are very famous for corruption and sleaziness. There's oligarchs in power and it's as bad as ever but somehow we portray Poroshenko as Gandalf + Jesus Christ simply because he's fighting against the Orcish insurgents with backing from Sauronic Russia. No, I don't like Russian government policy and the Ukraine affair made me lose what little faith I had in them. As a country otherwise, there's nothing about Russia I like except old classical music and architecture and European military history. I have absolutely no reason to favor Russia. But I don't see things in black and white. That puts me in the minority, but I'm okay with that. Germany's one of the few involved parties that I'd say has any legitimacy to say anything on the matter, even despite the overwhelming US influence. Russia has none, and the US has about as much. We (US) aren't exactly good guys by any means. It is true that Poroshenko is doing the only reasonable thing you can do when there is armed revolt (although we condemn leaders we don't like/support when they do the same), but he is full of crap whenever he utters anything for the obvious reason that it's nothing more than wartime propaganda.
Yeah, Russia has no say in the matter (and the cold war never happened). Russia is making an example out of Ukraine. Ukraine showed signs of wanting to leave the empire, so Russia took the important part of Ukraine by force (Crimea), and fostered a proxy war in eastern Ukraine to show other soviet satellites what happens when you try to step out of line. Russia's being a dick the same way it used to be when it was a rival to the US, and it's getting called on it. This is significant because nobody has really brought this kind of fight to Europe since the end of the cold war. We've mostly been focusing our proxy wars in the middle east.
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/chaos-at-malaysian-airlines-crash-site-leaves-victims-by-the
The crash has starkly brought to life the realities of the Donetsk People’s Republic, which says it is an independent Russian candidate state but seems to actually be made up of myriad armed groups with no obvious order or command structure. Grumpy, the armed men’s leader, said no investigators or observers would be allowed until the “experts” — who, as provincial police officers, would have no training in handling air disasters or other crime scenes of such magnitude — had completed their work.
He said that the men were employees of the armed wing of the Donetsk People’s Republic’s “prosecutor’s office,” which the self-proclaimed prime minister has said is investigating the crime. None of the men, however, even knew what the prosecutor’s name was offhand. One rebel in a safari hat who routinely made casual threats to shoot reporters in the knees eventually looked at the back of his “Donetsk Prosecutor’s Office” badge and found the prosecutor’s name, Ramil Khalikov. Khalikov was nowhere to be seen. The man, who declined to give his name, admitted that he had only joined the prosecutor’s office “very, very recently.”
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Crimea will go back to ukrainians when Palestine will go back to palestinians. (... that's never)
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On July 20 2014 06:56 Itachii wrote:
Support your troops and invade another country while saying its not your army. When you lose control over them try to accuse invaded country's government of shooting down civilian plane and blame them for everything that happend. Destroy remaining proof of your act of terror and let bodies decay. Seems logic Russian.
And they aren't rebels, they are Russians. And they should be invaded for the shit they've done, and will do in the future. Mark my words.
The roots and even now the foundation of revolution are Ukrainians. They were already out in full force before Russia even had a say in anything going on in eastern Ukraine and Russian citizens went to join them. What is this conspiracy that the insurgents were and are entirely Russian? You may be getting the timeline mixed up.
I'm sorry Pole, but as an American, I find your hatred worrying. If Russia should be invaded for being assholes to Ukraine and the new Ukrainian administration, it implies things should happen to the US too for all the shit we've done, and I can't even imagine what should happen to the US. It wouldn't be pretty, and it's almost insulting to the US people. Anyways, PROland is welcome to try to attack Russia. I can assure you though it will end terribly. Don't expect Uncle Sam's help either. To put it bluntly, you're not important enough to us if you decide to embark on this voyage.
On July 20 2014 07:04 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. On July 20 2014 05:05 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 04:25 sashkata wrote:
The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo Yeah. The rebels need to be held responsible by the west. This behavior by the Russians to destabilize the country and illegally invade Crimea cannot go unpunished. I would like the EU and NATO to take their responsibility and establish a corridor to the crash site by force if necessary. Then Russia must be held responsible for this incident and allow their arsenal of BUK batteries to be put under scrutiny. The more time that passes the likeliness of finding the team responsible for this accident decreases. Russia needs to be punished where it hurts. Crimea should be handed over to the Ukranians and enough NATO presence in the area must exist in order for Ukraine to be able to not extend the lease of the Russian fleet base in the Black Sea if they want to. The cold war is over and Russia lost. It seems like the time has come for Putin to be reminded by this. Thugs cannot be allowed to control the crash site. The whereabouts of the black box recorder must be released. If they are in Russia they must be handed over to independent investigators ASAP. What can NATO do? NATO is just the US, and its feeble puppet states in Europe. You are literally the modern-era "socii latini" to Washington. We practically own you when it comes to foreign policy and military affairs. But what country in NATO has a functional military besides the US? Certainly not Sweden lol. France, a little bit. NATO cannot do anything with the US, and if the US doesn't see such a thing feasible, then nothing will be done. But short of the US devoting most of its military with large-scale conscription, any aggression directed against Russia as you support will be a one-sided slaughter. What does Russia have to do with insurgents firing at the airliner? They gave no order to do it. Let's not twist the culpability of insurgents into Russophobia. What boggles my mind more is how incompetent the Ukrainian military is that civil war is still going on even with entirely overwhelming firepower and manpower. This war should have been done months ago. Do you condemn the US for all the harm and aggression and devastation it's caused just in the last decades that outdoes Russia by many magnitudes? I dare you to say anything. If you do say anything, you would be at least be fair, but your pride would be hurt. But if you're going to hate one devil and worship another, that's comically two-faced. I'm not talking about an invasion of Russia. The UK and the Netherlands backed up by Polish troops could access the region via Poland in days. The mission would be to secure the site and stop the Russian "covert" support to the rebels in the region. Russia would be forced to back off or risk further escalation of the conflict. As for Crimea. A combination of economic sanctions and making europe less dependent of russian oil and gas. Germany, I'm looking at you. Time to start your nuclear reactors again. Increased NATO presence in the region and the black sea together with UN pressure could then force Russia from Crimea.
By region do you mean eastern Ukraine? Bringing in more parties into the conflict will only worsen matters, not make them better. Also, I don't think the UK and Netherlands are capable of doing much militarily. So basically it would just be a huge political shitstorm with nothing good coming out of such action. Why are you rooting for this? Nothing good will come of it.
There already are sanctions, and not because anyone gives a fuck about Ukraine, but we don't like Russia. lol. Fortunately, we own most of Europe, and Russia doesn't, so we can't be sanctioned when we do much worse things in the world. Non-Russian European nations have a lot of problems and frailties, not just dependence on Russian industries/energy. To cut that out would most likely have a ripple effect. I'm sure they know this, as they've been pretty reluctant. Also, cutting trade relations when not in wartime is an extremely serious action to do. Don't understate it. Those folks in the Bundestag are not so dumb, ya know.
On July 20 2014 07:05 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 06:53 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 06:09 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 06:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 06:05 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
[quote]
It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview. I remember his name for some pretty extreme comments, but maybe im confusing the side then. Read my reply to yourself and to Anarchy and you'll get your explanation. Yep i've definitly mistaken you for someone else, sorry about that. No problem. But I was simply making the point that there really is no significant reason why Ukraine is soooo incredibly important to any real player except for political motivations. That goes for Russia a border away, and for the US despite it being half a world away. But I don't like how things are painted into a Lord of the Rings theme. Ukrainian politics are very famous for corruption and sleaziness. There's oligarchs in power and it's as bad as ever but somehow we portray Poroshenko as Gandalf + Jesus Christ simply because he's fighting against the Orcish insurgents with backing from Sauronic Russia. No, I don't like Russian government policy and the Ukraine affair made me lose what little faith I had in them. As a country otherwise, there's nothing about Russia I like except old classical music and architecture and European military history. I have absolutely no reason to favor Russia. But I don't see things in black and white. That puts me in the minority, but I'm okay with that. Germany's one of the few involved parties that I'd say has any legitimacy to say anything on the matter, even despite the overwhelming US influence. Russia has none, and the US has about as much. We (US) aren't exactly good guys by any means. It is true that Poroshenko is doing the only reasonable thing you can do when there is armed revolt (although we condemn leaders we don't like/support when they do the same), but he is full of crap whenever he utters anything for the obvious reason that it's nothing more than wartime propaganda. Yeah, Russia has no say in the matter (and the cold war never happened). Russia is making an example out of Ukraine. Ukraine showed signs of wanting to leave the empire, so Russia took the important part of Ukraine by force (Crimea), and fostered a proxy war in eastern Ukraine to show other soviet satellites what happens when you try to step out of line. Russia's being a dick the same way it used to be when it was a rival to the US, and it's getting called on it. This is significant because nobody has really brought this kind of fight to Europe since the end of the cold war. We've mostly been focusing our proxy wars in the middle east.
Wait, why should the aggressor have a say on what it's doing being right? Are you saying Russia should have be taken legitimately considering the fact they're worsening matters? I don't see why you're being sarcastic.
Yeah they're being a dick lol, and we should call them out on it and I certainly have been, but not in the tone of Russophobic MURICA self-righteousness like we're Jesus Christ, especially when you consider we're pretty bad ourselves. Then it just sounds like we're yelling at them because we hate them anyways and are just looking for any reason to yell at the more. If we want to be taken with any seriousness, we can't be doing it that way.
So, from what I understand from your post, it's okay for the US to be the world's biggest asshole, but it's only bad when Russia does anything remotely similar and does it deserve every form of hellfire conceivable by the human mind. But what's even funnier is that in your post, you can replace every instance "Russia" with "US" and it would still make perfect sense. Except when someone steps out of line, the US brings a lot more pain and does it anywhere in the world, and I realize that's severely understating it. If there's anything from this conflict that's giving me any relief, it's that the Russians don't do things the American way of bringing more pain than Chuck Norris. But hell, who cares that Christians are being eliminated Terminator-style in Iraq for that past decade? Oh, that's not a big geopolitical interest for us, so we shouldn't pay it any mind.
Yes, you are right, we focus our proxy wars where we have political interest. The Mideast is very important to our imperialistic interests (since you're talking about empires, I may as well join in), and that's why we've been fucking it up for the past 60 years whenever anyone "steps out of line" in even the smallest ways. Now that it's Ukraine and all the usurpation and fighting there with an opportunity for us to expand further in Europe, obviously that's where the proxy war is going to be and same for Russia for their own reasons. It may surprise you, but we and the Russians ain't much different at all, except we're a lot more Mongolian and frequent in our methods.
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On July 20 2014 07:13 xM(Z wrote:
Crimea will go back to ukrainians when Palestine will go back to palestinians. (... that's never)
Maybe, maybe it will take as long as it to for the Baltics to go to the Balts though.
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On July 20 2014 07:04 one-one-one wrote:
As for Crimea. A combination of economic sanctions and making europe less dependent of russian oil and gas. Germany, I'm looking at you. Time to start your nuclear reactors again.
We don't like nucular things, just wait 20 years for solar/wind powers 
Or the fusion reactors in France/North Germany. Might be a good solution. But quite far in the future.
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Why can't France just share their Nuclear Power?
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that's US monopoly. it has nuclear weapons stationed in many countries. (thought nuclear weapons)
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On July 20 2014 08:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Why can't France just share their Nuclear Power?
DING DING. We have a winner. Seriously, since they love nuclear power more than anyone else, why not do their part in lowering EU dependence on Russian energy? It's as if they have no interest in doing so.
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Every nation does share it's power. Imports from nuclear power was always a point of critique of our fission exit as we have to import fe from (probably less secure) Czech reactors instead of quite newer Bavarian.
Takes some time to put the power grid up to the new ways/challenges.
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On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:05 one-one-one wrote:On July 20 2014 04:25 sashkata wrote:
The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo Yeah. The rebels need to be held responsible by the west. This behavior by the Russians to destabilize the country and illegally invade Crimea cannot go unpunished. I would like the EU and NATO to take their responsibility and establish a corridor to the crash site by force if necessary. Then Russia must be held responsible for this incident and allow their arsenal of BUK batteries to be put under scrutiny. The more time that passes the likeliness of finding the team responsible for this accident decreases. Russia needs to be punished where it hurts. Crimea should be handed over to the Ukranians and enough NATO presence in the area must exist in order for Ukraine to be able to not extend the lease of the Russian fleet base in the Black Sea if they want to. The cold war is over and Russia lost. It seems like the time has come for Putin to be reminded by this. Thugs cannot be allowed to control the crash site. The whereabouts of the black box recorder must be released. If they are in Russia they must be handed over to independent investigators ASAP. What can NATO do? NATO is just the US, and its feeble puppet states in Europe. You are literally the modern-era "socii latini" to Washington. We practically own you when it comes to foreign policy and military affairs. But what country in NATO has a functional military besides the US? Certainly not Sweden lol. France, a little bit. NATO cannot do anything with the US, and if the US doesn't see such a thing feasible, then nothing will be done. But short of the US devoting most of its military with large-scale conscription, any aggression directed against Russia as you support will be a one-sided slaughter.
Just because we don't spend a retarded amount of money on war like the USA does, doesn't mean Europe does not have a functional military. Germany and France together spend more on military than Russia does. Add the UK and it goes way over Russia. Then there's Turkey and Italy. Of course the US has a lot more swing within NATO with their humongous army but don't act like the others are nothing.
Anyway nobody is going to war against Russia. Europe is perfectly capable of dealing with the separatists. Russia will just drop their support if this happens.
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On July 20 2014 06:56 Itachii wrote:
Support your troops and invade another country while saying its not your army. When you lose control over them try to accuse invaded country's government of shooting down civilian plane and blame them for everything that happend. Destroy remaining proof of your act of terror and let bodies decay. Seems logic Russian.
And they aren't rebels, they are Russians. And they should be invaded for the shit they've done, and will do in the future. Mark my words.
Typical nationalist rusophobe.
Now on topic:
Will there be a crash video of the plane because the ones I've seen so far 'explosion on ground with no smoke trail' and 2nd was low quality phone camera or something with questionably different weather condition (during plane crash it was cloudy and the low quality crash video is during clear sky). Again Eastern Ukraine is the most spied on place on Earth now and still no legit video of plane crash?!
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On July 20 2014 08:21 Hazzyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 06:56 Itachii wrote:
Support your troops and invade another country while saying its not your army. When you lose control over them try to accuse invaded country's government of shooting down civilian plane and blame them for everything that happend. Destroy remaining proof of your act of terror and let bodies decay. Seems logic Russian.
And they aren't rebels, they are Russians. And they should be invaded for the shit they've done, and will do in the future. Mark my words.
Typical nationalist rusophobe. Now on topic: Will there be a crash video of the plane because the ones I've seen so far 'explosion on ground with no smoke trail' and 2nd was low quality phone camera or something with questionably different weather condition (during plane crash it was cloudy and the low quality crash video is during clear sky). Again Eastern Ukraine is the most spied on place on Earth now and still no legit video of plane crash?!
Just curious, what do you hope to glean from watching a video of variously sized pieces of debris falling out of the sky? The people most likely to have had nice enough optics trained on the plane to capture video during the strike are the ones who shot the missile, and they certainly wouldn't release anything like that. The US government is claiming they have infrared satellite images of the missile strike, but afaik have not yet released these images.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/u-s-spy-satellites-tracked-missile-hit-malaysia-airlines-plane-report-article-1.1871779
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On July 20 2014 08:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Anyway nobody is going to war against Russia. Europe is perfectly capable of dealing with the separatists. Russia will just drop their support if this happens.
http://qz.com/237405/vladimir-putin-is-having-trouble-backing-out-of-the-corner-in-which-hes-trapped-himself/
Andrew Kuchins, a Russia expert at the Center on Strategic and International Studies, is not convinced that Putin can do much even if he decides he wants to–the situation may now be out of his complete control. “I am skeptical that he can control his side (of the border) to the extent that frankly we would be much more comfortable with,” Kuchins told Quartz. “He is responsible for sure, but there may likely be some unaccountable actors on his side of the border as well. Hard to turn these things off like a light switch.”
so maybe not
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So does Merkel need the support of the Greens in order to stay in office?
LONDON, July 19 (Reuters) - British Prime Minister David Cameron said on Saturday that if it were proven that Ukrainian separatists were behind the downing of a Malaysian jet carrying 298 passengers, Russia would be to blame for having destabilized the country.
"If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them," he wrote in The Sunday Times newspaper.
Cameron also appeared to criticize fellow members of the European Union for being slow to act against the Kremlin.
"For too long there has been a reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine," he wrote.
Source
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So it's okay to show debris on ground with bodies but plane shot down and falling from air is too graphical? That video won't change much because argument of who shot the missile will remain.
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EPT
