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Even without blaming anyone for the actual crash, the rebels are handling this like fucking retards. I do not understand why the research teams cannot be accompanied by an international force of peacekeepers to secure the crash site and stop this bizarre, fucking atrocious disgracing of the victims and their families and friends.
Everyone's banging their fists on the table but nothing is actually fucking happening. Bah, this is making me so angry.
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On July 20 2014 03:19 Evilmystic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 02:40 one-one-one wrote:
I want to point out that there are different tiers of surface-to-air weapons. The weapon used to down the AN-26 last week was probably a smaller hand held SAM which can not be used to shoot down airplanes at 30k+ feet.
A plausible chain of events is that the Ukranian military planes have been flying on higher altitudes, out of reach of hand operated SAMs, ever since their AN-26 was shot down. To counter this, rebels have gotten access to advanced "BUK" weapons with substantially better capabilities, with our without Russian aid ( I believe that they were assisted by Russians, but of course I don't have any hard evidence).
AN-26 was shot down on altitude of around 6500 meters, well out of range of any shoulder-launched SAM. That led to Ukraine's accusations of russian military involvement in taking this plane down, as well as closing of airspace below 10000 m.
That seems to be correct. I don't know the max altitude of MANPADS by heart. The concept that I described about "tiered" SAM weapons is still correct though. Has it been established which weapon that was used to shoot down the AN-26?
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KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m.
Source
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The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo
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On July 20 2014 04:25 sashkata wrote:
The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo
It's hard to loot bodies if they're being sent back to their families 1500 miles away. The rebels also probably don't have the manpower or equipment to 'guard' the crash site, gather the bodies for transportation, and fight the Ukrainian military (combat is going on pretty close by) all at the same time.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-vladimir-putin-russia-rebel-groups
However, it seems likely that far from prompting introspection and apologies, MH17 will only serve to intensify the Russian sense of belligerence and unfair victimisation that has become more pronounced as 2014 has gone on, with criticism of the Sochi Winter Olympics and the annexation of Crimea bundled into one and served as incontrovertible proof of pathological Russophobia in the west. The slew of "Putin the killer" front pages in Britain and across Europe are likely to exacerbate this.
Early signs seem to suggest that Russia is not preparing to abandon the rebels and publicly denounce their methods. Instead, state television is scrambling to promote outlandish conspiracy theories, or suggesting as Putin did that Ukraine is ultimately responsible for the tragedy, whoever fired the missile. The deputy foreign minister has railed that the US is like a "bad surgeon", wandering around the world making crude incisions and then being surprised by the pain that ensues. The minor issue of who actually brought down the plane, in this version, is almost an irrelevance
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● UK calls for EU to re-evaluate relations with Russia ● UK send air accident investigators and police to Ukraine ● Australia threatens to ban Russia from G20 summit ● US backs Kiev claims over flight MH17 ● OSCE observers seek access to crash site ● Confusion surrounds location of in-flight recorders ● Official death toll climbs to 298 ● Russian foreign minister calls for independent inquiry ● Merkel calls on Russia to recognise its responsibilities The UK and the Netherlands have called on the EU to reconsider its relations with Russia as evidence mounts that pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine shot down Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 on Thursday. Raising the expectation of further sanctions against Russia, British prime minister David Cameron and Mark Rutte, his Dutch counterpart, said on Saturday that Russian president Vladimir Putin needed to “actively engage with the international community and use his influence on the separatists to ensure they allow access to the crash site”. “The PM and PM Rutte agreed that the EU will need to reconsider its approach to Russia in light of evidence that pro-Russian separatists brought down the plane,” Downing Street added. Dutch foreign minister Frans Timmermans said the Netherlands was “angry, furious” at news that some of the 298 bodies at the site were not being “treated properly”. Dutch forensic experts left for the crash site on Saturday but continued to encounter difficulties in identifying and repatriating the bodies of the 193 Dutch citizens on the flight, he said. Mr Timmermans said the Netherlands would not rest until those responsible, and those that supported them, were brought to justice. New foreign secretary Philip Hammond complained that the UK was “not getting enough support from the Russians, adding: “The world’s eyes will be on Russia to see if she delivers on her obligations in the next couple of hours.” In a rare admission by Russia of its role in the conflict, Moscow pledged on Saturday to use its influence with the rebels to move towards a political solution, in what observers said was a small signal that Moscow might become more co-operative. The Russian foreign ministry said Russia’s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov and US secretary of state John Kerry agreed in a phone call on Saturday that both parties in the Ukrainian conflict should observe the April Geneva Declaration, which called for the cessation of all violence and the start of a political process. Tony Abbott, Australia’s prime minister, on Saturday threatened to try to block Russian President Vladimir Putin from attending a G20 summit in November if he failed to help with the investigation. + Show Spoiler +
US President Barack Obama said on Friday that the plane was brought down by a missile fired from territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists and that the rebels in eastern Ukraine had received training from Russia in the use of anti-aircraft weaponry.
The calls for Russia to bring the rebels to heel came as Ukraine directly accused Russian military personnel of firing the missile that downed MH17 and released photographs of a Buk rocket system – the missile widely believed to have been used – said to have been taken on Thursday in territory held by the Russian-backed separatists near the crash site. One image showed a trail of smoke, which the state security service said was left by a rocket after it was fired at the airliner on Thursday.
“Russia is trying to cover its tracks and claim that another party is responsible for the act of terrorism,” Vitaliy Nayda, the head of counter-intelligence.
Ukraine also accused the rebels of destroying evidence at the site of the disaster, which is in rebel-held territory in the east of the country. “The terrorists, with the help of Russia, are trying to destroy evidence of international crimes,” the government said.
Ukraine’s prime minister said armed men had prevented government experts from collecting evidence and threatened to detain them, while bodies had been removed from the site near the border with Russia.
Andriy Lysenko, spokesman for Ukraine’s National Security and Defence Council, said rebels were forcing emergency workers to collect evidence and hand it over to them.
Source
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On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source
I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings.
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On July 20 2014 04:25 sashkata wrote:
The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo
Yeah.
The rebels need to be held responsible by the west. This behavior by the Russians to destabilize the country and illegally invade Crimea cannot go unpunished. I would like the EU and NATO to take their responsibility and establish a corridor to the crash site by force if necessary. Then Russia must be held responsible for this incident and allow their arsenal of BUK batteries to be put under scrutiny. The more time that passes the likeliness of finding the team responsible for this accident decreases.
Russia needs to be punished where it hurts. Crimea should be handed over to the Ukranians and enough NATO presence in the area must exist in order for Ukraine to be able to not extend the lease of the Russian fleet base in the Black Sea if they want to. The cold war is over and Russia lost. It seems like the time has come for Putin to be reminded by this.
Thugs cannot be allowed to control the crash site. The whereabouts of the black box recorder must be released. If they are in Russia they must be handed over to independent investigators ASAP.
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On July 20 2014 05:05 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 04:25 sashkata wrote:
The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo Yeah. The rebels need to be held responsible by the west. This behavior by the Russians to destabilize the country and illegally invade Crimea cannot go unpunished. I would like the EU and NATO to take their responsibility and establish a corridor to the crash site by force if necessary. Then Russia must be held responsible for this incident and allow their arsenal of BUK batteries to be put under scrutiny. The more time that passes the likeliness of finding the team responsible for this accident decreases. Russia needs to be punished where it hurts. Crimea should be handed over to the Ukranians and enough NATO presence in the area must exist in order for Ukraine to be able to not extend the lease of the Russian fleet base in the Black Sea if they want to. The cold war is over and Russia lost. It seems like the time has come for Putin to be reminded by this. Thugs cannot be allowed to control the crash site. The whereabouts of the black box recorder must be released. If they are in Russia they must be handed over to independent investigators ASAP.
Ukraine is not a NATO member and even if the plane was shot down (seems very likely now) by whatever party, it was hardly an attack on a NATO member, but very likely a tragic mistake in a warzone...
NATO without the US cannot do anything militarily, France and GB are the only countries that would be even able to transport an army to Crimea, the other european countries lack force projection, meaning EU cannot do anything in that regard even if it wanted to. The US will hardly get itself dragged into a potential very big conflict, doing anything militarily is no option it seems.
I think the EU should widen the sanctions imposed on Russia a bit for continuing to fuck with another country, regardless of this tragedy.
Any attempt to investigate will likely be blocked ad infinitum or until compromising material will savely be stored away in some archive.
Oh and Russia won't give the Crimea back, what exactly could we do to enforce this demand?
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On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings.
It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy.
On July 20 2014 05:05 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 04:25 sashkata wrote:
The one thing that disgusts me is that the bodies are left there to lie around. You don't want the site to be investigated? Okay. Shady, but okay. You should still return the bodies to their families, so they can be buried properly. If you can't transport them yourselves, than allow someone to come and pick them up. These people deserve to be returned to their loved once!
edit typo Yeah. The rebels need to be held responsible by the west. This behavior by the Russians to destabilize the country and illegally invade Crimea cannot go unpunished. I would like the EU and NATO to take their responsibility and establish a corridor to the crash site by force if necessary. Then Russia must be held responsible for this incident and allow their arsenal of BUK batteries to be put under scrutiny. The more time that passes the likeliness of finding the team responsible for this accident decreases. Russia needs to be punished where it hurts. Crimea should be handed over to the Ukranians and enough NATO presence in the area must exist in order for Ukraine to be able to not extend the lease of the Russian fleet base in the Black Sea if they want to. The cold war is over and Russia lost. It seems like the time has come for Putin to be reminded by this. Thugs cannot be allowed to control the crash site. The whereabouts of the black box recorder must be released. If they are in Russia they must be handed over to independent investigators ASAP.
What can NATO do? NATO is just the US, and its feeble puppet states in Europe. You are literally the modern-era "socii latini" to Washington. We practically own you when it comes to foreign policy and military affairs. But what country in NATO has a functional military besides the US? Certainly not Sweden lol. France, a little bit. NATO cannot do anything with the US, and if the US doesn't see such a thing feasible, then nothing will be done. But short of the US devoting most of its military with large-scale conscription, any aggression directed against Russia as you support will be a one-sided slaughter.
What does Russia have to do with insurgents firing at the airliner? They gave no order to do it. Let's not twist the culpability of insurgents into Russophobia. What boggles my mind more is how incompetent the Ukrainian military is that civil war is still going on even with entirely overwhelming firepower and manpower. This war should have been done months ago.
Do you condemn the US for all the harm and aggression and devastation it's caused just in the last decades that outdoes Russia by many magnitudes? I dare you to say anything. If you do say anything, you would be at least be fair, but your pride would be hurt. But if you're going to hate one devil and worship another, that's comically two-faced.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy.
l.o.l.
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On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l.
What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset.
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On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset.
Yep, you got me. There is no retort to your lucid and diamond sharp analysis.
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On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset.
Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit.
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On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit.
Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview.
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On July 20 2014 05:53 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Yep, you got me. There is no retort to your lucid and diamond sharp analysis.
To say the least, certainly sharper than anything you've stated. But I guess you are confronted with a realistic view on the matter (or in your case, anything isn't only senseless russia bashing which I've done enough of in this or other threads), the response is to make sarcastic, snide comments. Bravo mate.
On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit.
Hahahaha!!!
Please tell me where is there conspiracy bullshit? I spent half my time in the old Ukraine thread condemning the insurgents and condemning Russian troop buildup. I also spent time, ironically enough, condemning conspiracy theories, like the one that the insurgents were rank-and-file Russian military personnel and others.
On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview.
I still am that way. However, my goal is not to take a side, but to condemn stupidity. I don't really have much bias outside of sports clubs, and certainly not for Russia (Lol who is this guy?). Rabid anti-Americanism and double-sided nature/views with no basis will be addressed as I have done in the past. I've done that alot on this forum. This has among some US-bashing Europeans earned me the reputation that Swiss guy knows me by. However, I will also condemn MURICA-style posts, especially ones attempting to justify grave atrocities and behavior, and posts that reflect a contradictory view on things.
The same's happening now, just not with the US. That somehow makes me biased? Nope. We could be talking about Greenland for christsake and I'd still be addressing ridiculous or mob mentality-style comments, and I don't have the slightest care about Greenland.
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On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview.
I remember his name for some pretty extreme comments, but maybe im confusing the side then.
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On July 20 2014 06:05 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview. I remember his name for some pretty extreme comments, but maybe im confusing the side then.
Read my reply to yourself and to Anarchy and you'll get your explanation.
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On July 20 2014 06:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 06:05 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On July 20 2014 05:57 Roggay wrote:On July 20 2014 05:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:33 Sub40APM wrote:On July 20 2014 05:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 20 2014 05:02 Sjokola wrote:On July 20 2014 04:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.
Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash. At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m. Source I wonder if the Ukrainian army will use this time to intensify aerial bombings. It'll probably end up with them losing more aircraft and killing a much higher degree of civilians through collateral and less tactical planning (since the priority would on striking as much as possible). Then Russia can do the American thing and use it as justification to intervene as the "good guys" against a "vicious despot" fighting against violent insurgents a la Khomeini-loving Shia terrorists and Kurdish radicals in the 1980s. Only difference is, and it's rather very fortunate, Ukraine isn't fighting Russia on top of that. The Ukrainian regime is without a doubt rotten to the core and no one with a functional brain would support them, but their trump card and the reason why anyone cares about them is that non-Russian Europe is afraid of Russia since Russia is the only powerful country on that continent, and the US hates Russia because the US hates anything that is a roadblock to its megalomaniac policy. l.o.l. What's funny is it's true. lol. It's kind of like how all of Latin America hates us because we're the big power in the house. I see you have no actual retort and you have my apologies for being so blunt on the matter. But honestly, no one cares about Ukraine for Ukraine. Just for Ukraine as a political asset. Honestly, every single post I've ever seen you post about anything russia related have all been incredibly russia-biased and full of conspiracy bullshit. Really? I remember back in the day he was one of the most adamant backers of the United States I had ever seen. That's a fairly interesting, fairly radical shift in worldview. I remember his name for some pretty extreme comments, but maybe im confusing the side then. Read my reply to yourself and to Anarchy and you'll get your explanation.
Yep i've definitly mistaken you for someone else, sorry about that.
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EPT
