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On July 21 2014 16:35 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 16:28 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:19 zeo wrote:
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Nice picture of menacing looking troops with ski masks on in that article. Maybe they should have edited out the Ukrainian flag if they are going to put it in an article claiming they went into anti-government controlled territories. Really helps to send the message of who are the good and who are the bad guys. ... No seriously ... Are you claiming the reporters created a fake story about being imprisoned... and they couldn't be bothered to photo-shop a flag out? No seriously, they went over there and didn't take a single picture? If I'm reading an article about China, and they put pictures of Tokyo in it, it raises doubts. This thread needs to uphold a higher standard of sources and actual news.
Raises doubts from a guy who posted a source called the 'Spanish Air Controller' from Kiev who "saw" 2 Ukrainian jets shooting down the Malaysian flight.
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Canada11587 Posts
On July 21 2014 16:35 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 16:28 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:19 zeo wrote:
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Nice picture of menacing looking troops with ski masks on in that article. Maybe they should have edited out the Ukrainian flag if they are going to put it in an article claiming they went into anti-government controlled territories. Really helps to send the message of who are the good and who are the bad guys. ... No seriously ... Are you claiming the reporters created a fake story about being imprisoned... and they couldn't be bothered to photo-shop a flag out? No seriously, they went over there and didn't take a single picture? If I'm reading an article about China, and they put pictures of Tokyo in it, it raises doubts. This thread needs to uphold a higher standard of sources and actual news.
To clarify. Is your position, that those reporters were not in anti-government controlled territory, lied about being imprisoned, and then put up a photo that shows them in government controlled Ukraine?
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On July 21 2014 16:36 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 16:35 zeo wrote:On July 21 2014 16:28 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:19 zeo wrote:
^
Nice picture of menacing looking troops with ski masks on in that article. Maybe they should have edited out the Ukrainian flag if they are going to put it in an article claiming they went into anti-government controlled territories. Really helps to send the message of who are the good and who are the bad guys. ... No seriously ... Are you claiming the reporters created a fake story about being imprisoned... and they couldn't be bothered to photo-shop a flag out? No seriously, they went over there and didn't take a single picture? If I'm reading an article about China, and they put pictures of Tokyo in it, it raises doubts. This thread needs to uphold a higher standard of sources and actual news. To clarify. Is your position, that those reporters were not in anti-government controlled territory, lied about being imprisoned, and then put a photo that shows them in government controlled Ukraine?
Please read the modnote. There needs to be a higher standard of sources in this thread (from page 27). They clearly do not know what the anti-government forces look like as evidance of posting Kiev troops in an article about anti-government forces. This raises doubts, doubts that should not be raised if respectable sources are used. There should be no doubt. I won't post any further regarding this.
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Canada11587 Posts
On July 21 2014 16:42 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 16:36 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:35 zeo wrote:On July 21 2014 16:28 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:19 zeo wrote:
^
Nice picture of menacing looking troops with ski masks on in that article. Maybe they should have edited out the Ukrainian flag if they are going to put it in an article claiming they went into anti-government controlled territories. Really helps to send the message of who are the good and who are the bad guys. ... No seriously ... Are you claiming the reporters created a fake story about being imprisoned... and they couldn't be bothered to photo-shop a flag out? No seriously, they went over there and didn't take a single picture? If I'm reading an article about China, and they put pictures of Tokyo in it, it raises doubts. This thread needs to uphold a higher standard of sources and actual news. To clarify. Is your position, that those reporters were not in anti-government controlled territory, lied about being imprisoned, and then put a photo that shows them in government controlled Ukraine? Please read the modnote. There needs to be a higher standard of sources in this thread. They clearly do not know what the anti-government forces look like as evidance of posting Kiev troops in an article about anti-government forces. This raises doubts, doubts that should not be raised if respectable sources are used. There should be no doubt. I won't post any further regarding this.
That's a cop out.
Do you claim that they created a story, lying about being captured by the anti-government faction, but then couldn't figure out how to get rid of a Ukranian flag in the background?
And I'll thank you for reminding me about a mod note that I am well aware as part of the moderation.
edit.
As for "There should be no doubt." Even the court of law does not require 'no doubt.' Beyond reasonable doubt, but not 'no doubt.' One can always doubt. Descartes doubted existence itself- until he hit upon the whole thinking thing.
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On July 21 2014 16:42 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 16:36 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:35 zeo wrote:On July 21 2014 16:28 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:19 zeo wrote:
^
Nice picture of menacing looking troops with ski masks on in that article. Maybe they should have edited out the Ukrainian flag if they are going to put it in an article claiming they went into anti-government controlled territories. Really helps to send the message of who are the good and who are the bad guys. ... No seriously ... Are you claiming the reporters created a fake story about being imprisoned... and they couldn't be bothered to photo-shop a flag out? No seriously, they went over there and didn't take a single picture? If I'm reading an article about China, and they put pictures of Tokyo in it, it raises doubts. This thread needs to uphold a higher standard of sources and actual news. To clarify. Is your position, that those reporters were not in anti-government controlled territory, lied about being imprisoned, and then put a photo that shows them in government controlled Ukraine? Please read the modnote. There needs to be a higher standard of sources in this thread (from page 27). They clearly do not know what the anti-government forces look like as evidance of posting Kiev troops in an article about anti-government forces. This raises doubts, doubts that should not be raised if respectable sources are used. There should be no doubt. I won't post any further regarding this.
It's a conflict in Ukraine and there are scary looking dudes on both sides. Point of the picture - the military conflict in Ukraine. You are setting an absurd and silly standard here. Discrediting the article wholly on that notion... raises serious doubts indeed.
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Just ignore zeo. He will find any way and means to discredit anything your posting. Dont even bother replying to him.
User was warned for this post
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On July 21 2014 16:46 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 16:42 zeo wrote:On July 21 2014 16:36 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:35 zeo wrote:On July 21 2014 16:28 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:19 zeo wrote:
^
Nice picture of menacing looking troops with ski masks on in that article. Maybe they should have edited out the Ukrainian flag if they are going to put it in an article claiming they went into anti-government controlled territories. Really helps to send the message of who are the good and who are the bad guys. ... No seriously ... Are you claiming the reporters created a fake story about being imprisoned... and they couldn't be bothered to photo-shop a flag out? No seriously, they went over there and didn't take a single picture? If I'm reading an article about China, and they put pictures of Tokyo in it, it raises doubts. This thread needs to uphold a higher standard of sources and actual news. To clarify. Is your position, that those reporters were not in anti-government controlled territory, lied about being imprisoned, and then put a photo that shows them in government controlled Ukraine? Please read the modnote. There needs to be a higher standard of sources in this thread. They clearly do not know what the anti-government forces look like as evidance of posting Kiev troops in an article about anti-government forces. This raises doubts, doubts that should not be raised if respectable sources are used. There should be no doubt. I won't post any further regarding this. That's a cop out. Do you claim that they created a story, lying about being captured by the anti-government faction, but then couldn't figure out how to get rid of a Ukranian flag in the background? And I'll thank you for reminding me about a mod note that I am well aware as part of the moderation.
Sent you a PM. Anna Nemtsova, the journalist that wrote the piece also writes for the Kiev Post. These kinds of 'sources' have no place here.
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Canada11587 Posts
On July 21 2014 17:04 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 16:46 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:42 zeo wrote:On July 21 2014 16:36 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:35 zeo wrote:On July 21 2014 16:28 Falling wrote:On July 21 2014 16:19 zeo wrote:
^
Nice picture of menacing looking troops with ski masks on in that article. Maybe they should have edited out the Ukrainian flag if they are going to put it in an article claiming they went into anti-government controlled territories. Really helps to send the message of who are the good and who are the bad guys. ... No seriously ... Are you claiming the reporters created a fake story about being imprisoned... and they couldn't be bothered to photo-shop a flag out? No seriously, they went over there and didn't take a single picture? If I'm reading an article about China, and they put pictures of Tokyo in it, it raises doubts. This thread needs to uphold a higher standard of sources and actual news. To clarify. Is your position, that those reporters were not in anti-government controlled territory, lied about being imprisoned, and then put a photo that shows them in government controlled Ukraine? Please read the modnote. There needs to be a higher standard of sources in this thread. They clearly do not know what the anti-government forces look like as evidance of posting Kiev troops in an article about anti-government forces. This raises doubts, doubts that should not be raised if respectable sources are used. There should be no doubt. I won't post any further regarding this. That's a cop out. Do you claim that they created a story, lying about being captured by the anti-government faction, but then couldn't figure out how to get rid of a Ukranian flag in the background? And I'll thank you for reminding me about a mod note that I am well aware as part of the moderation. Sent you a PM. Anna Nemtsova, the journalist that wrote the piece also writes for the Kiev Post. These kinds of 'sources' have no place here.
She writes for the DailyBeast and Newsweek, and worked as a researcher for the Washington Post. That post has every right to be here as it came from the DailyBeast.
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I suggest that TL creates a forum "conspiracy theories" where people like zeo are allowed to share their thoughts. No source criticism or basic level of critical thinking required.
edit: I have seen subforums like that on other sites and I find it extremely hilarious how various tinfoil-hats are very quick in presenting och coming up with various stupid theories and never question or criticize another guys theory if it is an alternative theory not discussed in mainstream media, lol.
User was warned for this post
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The fact that zeo is a russian stooge is well known to anyone who frequented the previous Ukraine thread. No matter the situation, no matter the topic, no matter the evidence, he will inevitably take a position that makes everything bad the fault of a combination of the US, the corrupt western media, or the "junta nazis" in kiev, and everything good a result of something either Putin or the heroic freedom fighters in eastern ukraine did. He will then find some weird source that supports his lunatic position, and ignore any evidence to the contrary as "biased western propaganda".
There is really no point in arguing with him, but he always manages to stay exactly barely outside of moderation range, and it is apparently pretty hard to ignore the bullshit he consistantly spews out, so someone will always react to him and call him out on it, which as has been seen is utterly pointless. This means that any thread dealing with the Ukraine crisis in any way is ~50% zeo trolling everyone else.
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Dutch forensic experts have arrived in Torez where the bodies are being held in cold storage trains where they can begin inspections.
Prime Minister Rutte is trying to get the bodies back to Holland so that their bodies can be inspected there.
Also said that once it is found who is responsible will face big repercussions in the forms of political/economic/financial ways. I doubt we'll truly ever find out. Too much delay in everything that and with the delay in everything from Russia and the rebels that evidence is probably lost by now.
The article also mentioned that for some strange reason the cooling of the trains was offline during the night of sunday to monday morning.
The cooling has been brought back online monday morning.
Src
Glad that the rebels are starting to cooperate. It's 4 days after the crash and the forensic experts havent started inspecting the bodies yet. Not sure how big of an effect that'll be for inspecting the bodies that its so long with not too good conditions on the bodies. Some forensic expert on TL has to put some more light on this.
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On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote:
Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
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You know that the thread has fallen to a new low when even the Mods writing the MOD warnings are so MAD that they can't control their own spelling before posting the MOD Warning 
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On July 21 2014 19:10 shannn wrote:Dutch forensic experts have arrived in Torez where the bodies are being held in cold storage trains where they can begin inspections. Prime Minister Rutte is trying to get the bodies back to Holland so that their bodies can be inspected there. Also said that once it is found who is responsible will face big repercussions in the forms of political/economic/financial ways. I doubt we'll truly ever find out. Too much delay in everything that and with the delay in everything from Russia and the rebels that evidence is probably lost by now. The article also mentioned that for some strange reason the cooling of the trains was offline during the night of sunday to monday morning. The cooling has been brought back online monday morning. SrcGlad that the rebels are starting to cooperate. It's 4 days after the crash and the forensic experts havent started inspecting the bodies yet. Not sure how big of an effect that'll be for inspecting the bodies that its so long with not too good conditions on the bodies. Some forensic expert on TL has to put some more light on this.
If evidence was destroyed or tampered with, you can be sure Russia and Ukranian rebels will be blamed for it. Someone is guilty and you don't need 100% proof to put more sanctions.
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Zurich15366 Posts
An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media:
Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?
http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782
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I would tell you guys to think more about the lack of communication between stuff first before saying that Russia or Ukraine had nothing do do with it. It's not the first time that communication broke down or soldiers/rebels acting without any sort of superior supervision. In the end it might have been an anti air crew that got piss drunk and trigger happy and now everyone tries to cover it.
Don't tell me otherwise, because my country is nearby and I for one feel that my safety and freedom is threatened because of all the Ukraine/Russia bullshit that's been going on recently. Personally I say that those crews that shot down the plane, be sent to the international court of justice and publicly executed afterwards. They are responsible for almost 300 lives taken a few days ago.
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On July 21 2014 20:32 zatic wrote:An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media: Show nested quote +Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia? http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782
I have followed your link to Julia Ioffe's article and from there I read the original article on vesti.ru site in Russian. The article on vesti.ru does not state in any way that "Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses". I have also checked other "sources" in her article and they appear to be those yellow pages that any educated person would never waste time reading which leads me to believe that Julia did it on purpose. Please do not post such material.
I can tell you myself that Russian media is strongly biased and prefer showing dead bodies in Lugansk on TV in prime time. I try not to watch it and mostly do Euronews. It surely does not fall into complete nonsense about plane full of corpses, not the official media at least.
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On July 21 2014 20:47 blackguard4 wrote:
I would tell you guys to think more about the lack of communication between stuff first before saying that Russia or Ukraine had nothing do do with it. It's not the first time that communication broke down or soldiers/rebels acting without any sort of superior supervision. In the end it might have been an anti air crew that got piss drunk and trigger happy and now everyone tries to cover it.
Don't tell me otherwise, because my country is nearby and I for one feel that my safety and freedom is threatened because of all the Ukraine/Russia bullshit that's been going on recently. Personally I say that those crews that shot down the plane, be sent to the international court of justice and publicly executed afterwards. They are responsible for almost 300 lives taken a few days ago.
even if we get those responsible for shooting it down, wether it be the guy that gave the command, the asstwats that didnt check wether or not it was a military plane they were aiming at (im pretty sure its not that hard to check if you can operate the equipment they used, but might be i dont know shit) or the guy that pulled the trigger - they wont get executed because almost no western country still uses death penalties - only USA i think. Several countries have an inactive one because they're in a state of peace atm, think the only active one would be USA. And the international court of crimes & shit is, as it happens, in the netherlands. im not sure if we'd be happy to take in those responsible for this and lock them up & pay for them, and i dont think any other country will be glad to take them.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On July 21 2014 21:10 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 20:32 zatic wrote:An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media: Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia? http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 I have followed your link to Julia Ioffe's article and from there I read the original article on vesti.ru site in Russian. The article on vesti.ru does not state in any way that "Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses".
Of course I can't read Russian - but I doubt Google Translate gets the article that wrong. Half the original article is about speculation that the corpses found were dead already before the crash. Feel free to provide a more accurate translation.
Google translated article:
+ Show Spoiler +"According to the people who collected the bodies, most of corpses -" stale. "People died and several days ago. For complete accuracy of this information can not answer - of course, necessary to conclude forensic" - says Shooters.
"In addition, he said, the plane was discovered a large quantity of drugs, blood serum and other things, which is not typical for conventional liner. Seems that there was a medical special cargo" - said the commander of the militia of DNR.
Shooters also reported that he had talked with people who collected body parts immediately after the crash. They note that from them was the strongest smell of corpses.
"That smell in any weather for half an hour could not be formed, and the weather was overcast yesterday, not too hot," - said the captain. But pilots apparently were alive until the disaster: "The whole cabin (and the front part of the well preserved) was literally flooded with their blood," - said the Gunmen.
All of these "suspicious" does not seem to fit together with reliable evidence that this ship passengers were quite still alive - they were even sent to the Internet their latest tweets and videos.
Of course, medical examiners will certainly give an exact (or at least more or less approximate) time of death of passengers and crew of "Boeing". However, the fact that their passports are collected from the ground after the crash locals were clean, if just from the press, can not but amaze.
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I honestly tend to think that the plane was shot down by the rebels by a mistake but on the other hand it would be so much more convenient for the current Ukrainian government if it fell 50 km further from their border and not before.
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EPT
