|
In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards. Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread. Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults. |
On July 21 2014 21:28 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 21:10 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 20:32 zatic wrote:An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media: Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia? http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 I have followed your link to Julia Ioffe's article and from there I read the original article on vesti.ru site in Russian. The article on vesti.ru does not state in any way that "Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses". Of course I can't read Russian - but I doubt Google Translate gets the article that wrong. Half the original article is about speculation that the corpses found were dead already before the crash. Feel free to provide a more accurate translation. Google translated article: + Show Spoiler +"According to the people who collected the bodies, most of corpses -" stale. "People died and several days ago. For complete accuracy of this information can not answer - of course, necessary to conclude forensic" - says Shooters.
"In addition, he said, the plane was discovered a large quantity of drugs, blood serum and other things, which is not typical for conventional liner. Seems that there was a medical special cargo" - said the commander of the militia of DNR.
Shooters also reported that he had talked with people who collected body parts immediately after the crash. They note that from them was the strongest smell of corpses.
"That smell in any weather for half an hour could not be formed, and the weather was overcast yesterday, not too hot," - said the captain. But pilots apparently were alive until the disaster: "The whole cabin (and the front part of the well preserved) was literally flooded with their blood," - said the Gunmen.
All of these "suspicious" does not seem to fit together with reliable evidence that this ship passengers were quite still alive - they were even sent to the Internet their latest tweets and videos.
Of course, medical examiners will certainly give an exact (or at least more or less approximate) time of death of passengers and crew of "Boeing". However, the fact that their passports are collected from the ground after the crash locals were clean, if just from the press, can not but amaze.
I doubt that Google translate understands the text better than me my native language 
|
Zurich15313 Posts
On July 21 2014 21:32 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 21:28 zatic wrote:On July 21 2014 21:10 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 20:32 zatic wrote:An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media: Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia? http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 I have followed your link to Julia Ioffe's article and from there I read the original article on vesti.ru site in Russian. The article on vesti.ru does not state in any way that "Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses". Of course I can't read Russian - but I doubt Google Translate gets the article that wrong. Half the original article is about speculation that the corpses found were dead already before the crash. Feel free to provide a more accurate translation. Google translated article: + Show Spoiler +"According to the people who collected the bodies, most of corpses -" stale. "People died and several days ago. For complete accuracy of this information can not answer - of course, necessary to conclude forensic" - says Shooters.
"In addition, he said, the plane was discovered a large quantity of drugs, blood serum and other things, which is not typical for conventional liner. Seems that there was a medical special cargo" - said the commander of the militia of DNR.
Shooters also reported that he had talked with people who collected body parts immediately after the crash. They note that from them was the strongest smell of corpses.
"That smell in any weather for half an hour could not be formed, and the weather was overcast yesterday, not too hot," - said the captain. But pilots apparently were alive until the disaster: "The whole cabin (and the front part of the well preserved) was literally flooded with their blood," - said the Gunmen.
All of these "suspicious" does not seem to fit together with reliable evidence that this ship passengers were quite still alive - they were even sent to the Internet their latest tweets and videos.
Of course, medical examiners will certainly give an exact (or at least more or less approximate) time of death of passengers and crew of "Boeing". However, the fact that their passports are collected from the ground after the crash locals were clean, if just from the press, can not but amaze. I doubt that Google translate understands the text better than me my native language
I doubt that as well - mind pointing out what Google got wrong here?
|
On July 21 2014 21:34 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 21:32 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 21:28 zatic wrote:On July 21 2014 21:10 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 20:32 zatic wrote:An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media: Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia? http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 I have followed your link to Julia Ioffe's article and from there I read the original article on vesti.ru site in Russian. The article on vesti.ru does not state in any way that "Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses". Of course I can't read Russian - but I doubt Google Translate gets the article that wrong. Half the original article is about speculation that the corpses found were dead already before the crash. Feel free to provide a more accurate translation. Google translated article: + Show Spoiler +"According to the people who collected the bodies, most of corpses -" stale. "People died and several days ago. For complete accuracy of this information can not answer - of course, necessary to conclude forensic" - says Shooters.
"In addition, he said, the plane was discovered a large quantity of drugs, blood serum and other things, which is not typical for conventional liner. Seems that there was a medical special cargo" - said the commander of the militia of DNR.
Shooters also reported that he had talked with people who collected body parts immediately after the crash. They note that from them was the strongest smell of corpses.
"That smell in any weather for half an hour could not be formed, and the weather was overcast yesterday, not too hot," - said the captain. But pilots apparently were alive until the disaster: "The whole cabin (and the front part of the well preserved) was literally flooded with their blood," - said the Gunmen.
All of these "suspicious" does not seem to fit together with reliable evidence that this ship passengers were quite still alive - they were even sent to the Internet their latest tweets and videos.
Of course, medical examiners will certainly give an exact (or at least more or less approximate) time of death of passengers and crew of "Boeing". However, the fact that their passports are collected from the ground after the crash locals were clean, if just from the press, can not but amaze. I doubt that Google translate understands the text better than me my native language I doubt that as well - mind pointing out what Google got wrong here?
The beginning of the article on vesti.ru (official Russian media) Julia first links to:
"Как часто бывает после катастроф, которые потрясают мир, появляется множество предположений и откровенных фейков. Так случилось и сразу после трагического крушения над территорией Украины малазийского "Боинга". В Сети стали появляться сообщения о том, что некие интернет-пользователи об этой катастрофе знали заранее и даже предупреждали. ..."
My translation follows:
As frequently happens after the accidents, that shake the whole world a lot of various speculations and clear fakes appear. The exact thing happened right after the tragic Malasyian "Boeing" accident over the territory of Ukraine. The internet was flooded with the articles about some internet users that already knew the catastrophe would happen and even warned about it. ...
Further the article discusses various speculations about the tragedy.
|
On July 21 2014 21:48 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 21:34 zatic wrote:On July 21 2014 21:32 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 21:28 zatic wrote:On July 21 2014 21:10 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 20:32 zatic wrote:An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media: Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia? http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 I have followed your link to Julia Ioffe's article and from there I read the original article on vesti.ru site in Russian. The article on vesti.ru does not state in any way that "Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses". Of course I can't read Russian - but I doubt Google Translate gets the article that wrong. Half the original article is about speculation that the corpses found were dead already before the crash. Feel free to provide a more accurate translation. Google translated article: + Show Spoiler +"According to the people who collected the bodies, most of corpses -" stale. "People died and several days ago. For complete accuracy of this information can not answer - of course, necessary to conclude forensic" - says Shooters.
"In addition, he said, the plane was discovered a large quantity of drugs, blood serum and other things, which is not typical for conventional liner. Seems that there was a medical special cargo" - said the commander of the militia of DNR.
Shooters also reported that he had talked with people who collected body parts immediately after the crash. They note that from them was the strongest smell of corpses.
"That smell in any weather for half an hour could not be formed, and the weather was overcast yesterday, not too hot," - said the captain. But pilots apparently were alive until the disaster: "The whole cabin (and the front part of the well preserved) was literally flooded with their blood," - said the Gunmen.
All of these "suspicious" does not seem to fit together with reliable evidence that this ship passengers were quite still alive - they were even sent to the Internet their latest tweets and videos.
Of course, medical examiners will certainly give an exact (or at least more or less approximate) time of death of passengers and crew of "Boeing". However, the fact that their passports are collected from the ground after the crash locals were clean, if just from the press, can not but amaze. I doubt that Google translate understands the text better than me my native language I doubt that as well - mind pointing out what Google got wrong here? The beginning of the article on vesti.ru (official Russian media) Julia first links to: "Как часто бывает после катастроф, которые потрясают мир, появляется множество предположений и откровенных фейков. Так случилось и сразу после трагического крушения над территорией Украины малазийского "Боинга". В Сети стали появляться сообщения о том, что некие интернет-пользователи об этой катастрофе знали заранее и даже предупреждали. ..." My translation follows: As frequently happens after the accidents, that shake the whole world a lot of various speculations and clear fakes appear. The exact thing happened right after the tragic Malasyian "Boeing" accident over the territory of Ukraine. The internet was flooded with the articles about some internet users that already knew the catastrophe would happen and even warned about it. ... Further on the article discusses various speculations about the tragedy.
And google translate tells me that according to the article at least some people are pushing a narrative where everyone on the plane was dead before it crashed which seems what Joffe was going for? She's not a particularly amazing FP writer but most of the 'sources' she quotes seem to be about what she says they are.
|
On July 21 2014 21:55 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 21:48 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 21:34 zatic wrote:On July 21 2014 21:32 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 21:28 zatic wrote:On July 21 2014 21:10 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 20:32 zatic wrote:An excerpt of the different versions of MH17 that are apparently circulating Russian media: Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?
Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia? http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 I have followed your link to Julia Ioffe's article and from there I read the original article on vesti.ru site in Russian. The article on vesti.ru does not state in any way that "Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses". Of course I can't read Russian - but I doubt Google Translate gets the article that wrong. Half the original article is about speculation that the corpses found were dead already before the crash. Feel free to provide a more accurate translation. Google translated article: + Show Spoiler +"According to the people who collected the bodies, most of corpses -" stale. "People died and several days ago. For complete accuracy of this information can not answer - of course, necessary to conclude forensic" - says Shooters.
"In addition, he said, the plane was discovered a large quantity of drugs, blood serum and other things, which is not typical for conventional liner. Seems that there was a medical special cargo" - said the commander of the militia of DNR.
Shooters also reported that he had talked with people who collected body parts immediately after the crash. They note that from them was the strongest smell of corpses.
"That smell in any weather for half an hour could not be formed, and the weather was overcast yesterday, not too hot," - said the captain. But pilots apparently were alive until the disaster: "The whole cabin (and the front part of the well preserved) was literally flooded with their blood," - said the Gunmen.
All of these "suspicious" does not seem to fit together with reliable evidence that this ship passengers were quite still alive - they were even sent to the Internet their latest tweets and videos.
Of course, medical examiners will certainly give an exact (or at least more or less approximate) time of death of passengers and crew of "Boeing". However, the fact that their passports are collected from the ground after the crash locals were clean, if just from the press, can not but amaze. I doubt that Google translate understands the text better than me my native language I doubt that as well - mind pointing out what Google got wrong here? The beginning of the article on vesti.ru (official Russian media) Julia first links to: "Как часто бывает после катастроф, которые потрясают мир, появляется множество предположений и откровенных фейков. Так случилось и сразу после трагического крушения над территорией Украины малазийского "Боинга". В Сети стали появляться сообщения о том, что некие интернет-пользователи об этой катастрофе знали заранее и даже предупреждали. ..." My translation follows: As frequently happens after the accidents, that shake the whole world a lot of various speculations and clear fakes appear. The exact thing happened right after the tragic Malasyian "Boeing" accident over the territory of Ukraine. The internet was flooded with the articles about some internet users that already knew the catastrophe would happen and even warned about it. ... Further on the article discusses various speculations about the tragedy. And google translate tells me that according to the article at least some people are pushing a narrative where everyone on the plane was dead before it crashed which seems what Joffe was going for? She's not a particularly amazing FP writer but most of the 'sources' she quotes seem to be about what she says they are.
The article is about internet speculations that big tragedies often cause. You can trust google translate if that what you intend to do. As I said earlier I speak Russian, it's my native language, I see and hear a lot of bias and far-fetched facts from the Russian media every day, it is true, and it does not make me happy at all. I'd like to hope that western media is at least more professional not to draw conclusions from the internet yellow pages about what Russian ppl think or told to think.
|
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action.
|
please don't talk nonsense like the Ukraine government being under US control.
Even if it wasn't the rebels who shot down the plane; it was still likely an accident.
|
On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action.
Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ...
|
On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action.
sry this isn't a hollywood movie, evil conniving governments don't blow passenger planes out of the sky as a pretext to flex their military/economic muscles
pls stop conspiracy-ing.
|
On July 21 2014 22:17 zlefin wrote:
please don't talk nonsense like the Ukraine government being under US control.
Even if it wasn't the rebels who shot down the plane; it was still likely an accident.
And Donetsk region shale gas deposits are completely out of the picture here, right? And the fact that there were rumours about Yatsenyuk transferring monetary gold to US is also just rumours. And if we look at the reserves balance during that time we won't see anything strange, right?
Ukrainian international reserves (gold) from 2010 to 2014 years (in US dollars)
01.01.2011 1249,0 +301.0 +31.751%
01.01.2012 1385,3 +136.3 +10.912%
01.01.2013 1890,4 +505.1 +36.460%
01.01.2014 1640,2 -250.2 -13.236%
01.06.2014 1618,2 -21.9 -1.336%
taken from http://index.minfin.com.ua/
I am not hiding that I don't like the current Ukrainian government, I didn't like the former as well, but at least planes did not fell and towns were not bombed.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
Ok, there's plenty going on, but not much reporting. I'll try to draw it together through the sources I have.
Basically, as was already posted in the thread, forensic experts have arrived at the site, starting to do work. For example, the refrigerated corpse train has been sealed by the OSCE:
But all the decisions will happen tomorrow, 22nd of July.
a) There will be a UNSC meeting, the draft text will demand full access to the site. The question is, will Russia veto or not (Source.).
"The Russian ambassador to Australia, Vladimir Morozov, reportedly said on Monday his government would support the Australian resolution as long as it did not lay “blame”.
However, it remained unclear whether the current wording of the resolution – which refers to the plane being shot down – was acceptable." (ibid.)
Note that at a press conference today, Russia put forward a new theory that a Ukrainian plane [could have] shot down MH17.
(Note: wikipedia says that SU-25's have a max service ceiling of 22,000 feet, while MH17 had to be flying above 32,000 feet. Weird...)
Russian UN draft text blames Kyiv (Source.)
b) EU foreign ministers will meet to decide on new sanctions on Russia after shooting down the MH17. The sticking point is whether France (and Germany) will accept 3rd level sanctions, i.e., cancel the Mistral sale. This is generally seen as conditional on what happens at the UNSC meeting.
Britain will push for EU sanctions targeting whole sectors of the Russian economy in the wake of the Ukraine plane disaster even if it means taking a short-term "hit" to the economy, its ministers said on Monday. "We believe the time has now come for sanctions to be tightened further and that is precisely what we will be seeking to deliver in the meetings in the EU later this week," Clegg told a monthly news conference. He said it was time for the EU to move to "Tier 3" sanctions against Russia, which would block access to European markets for whole sectors of the Russian economy such as gas and oil. "Let's be clear, in doing so there might be some short-term economic effects in the UK as there would be in other European member states, but a failure to act with the right collective resolve in the EU, in my view, has not served us well in the last seven months." However, London believes others are more reluctant, such as Germany, which relies on Russian energy supplies, and France, which has a contract to supply Russia with two warships. Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/uk-wants-to-hit-russia-with-sanctions-that-will-actually-bite-2014-7#ixzz386tvQBXZ
Edit:
c) Putin is chairing a Russian national security council meeting. Alec Luhn from the Guardian speculates about its content but it's all up for grabs until the time comes:
|
On July 21 2014 22:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. sry this isn't a hollywood movie, evil conniving governments don't blow passenger planes out of the sky as a pretext to flex their military/economic muscles pls stop conspiracy-ing.
it is not a hollywood movie it is politics.
|
On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action.
There are some things about the "Ukraine shooting Putins plane down" that I do not see fit:
First of all, motive: Why would they shoot down Putins plane? If anything, the crisis has shown that neither EU or US wants a direct military involvement (boots on the ground has been denied vehemently all the way) so it is not going to go down that way. Besides, Putin is not the most extreme politician in Russia and shooting down his plane would for certain give Russia a valid reason to invade. Since Ukraine has so much worse of an army, the result would be very undesirable for the ukrainian government. I just cannot see a positive result from doing that.
Second of all, execution: If you have as advanced weaponry as this, you would be lacking severely in training to take the shot if in doubt. As much as defections has hit the ukrainian army, I find it unlikely for them to lack soldiers trained in using this equipment.
I think it is safe to discount that theory.
If Ukraine shot the plane down, it had to be a black flag operation or a freak-accident (as far as I know there are no pro-russian militia controlled aircrafts in operation). I don't see that as very likely either, but I am willing to reconsider if sufficient evidence leaks about where the SAM was when it fired. So far it seems very unlikely that anyone but an insufficiently trained militia-man took the shot by accident.
|
On July 21 2014 22:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ...
It will give Ukraine more international support and money.
|
On July 21 2014 23:02 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 22:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ... It will give Ukraine more international support and money.
There's no way the Ukraine could've done that without anyone noticing, so at the very least you'd have to be so paranoid to assume that this was a joint operation between the Ukraine, the US and probably a few other countries.
|
On July 21 2014 22:56 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. There are some things about the "Ukraine shooting Putins plane down" that I do not see fit: First of all, motive: Why would they shoot down Putins plane? If anything, the crisis has shown that neither EU or US wants a direct military involvement (boots on the ground has been denied vehemently all the way) so it is not going to go down that way. Besides, Putin is not the most extreme politician in Russia and shooting down his plane would for certain give Russia a valid reason to invade. Since Ukraine has so much worse of an army, the result would be very undesirable for the ukrainian government. I just cannot see a positive result from doing that. Second of all, execution: If you have as advanced weaponry as this, you would be lacking severely in training to take the shot if in doubt. As much as defections has hit the ukrainian army, I find it unlikely for them to lack soldiers trained in using this equipment. I think it is safe to discount that theory. If Ukraine shot the plane down, it had to be a black flag operation or a freak-accident (as far as I know there are no pro-russian militia controlled aircrafts in operation). I don't see that as very likely either, but I am willing to reconsider if sufficient evidence leaks about where the SAM was when it fired. So far it seems very unlikely that anyone but an insufficiently trained militia-man took the shot by accident.
That is my first guess, the rebels. I am however have serious concerns about the current Ukrainian government and it's sheer ability to control the country.
|
On July 21 2014 23:13 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 22:56 radiatoren wrote:On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. There are some things about the "Ukraine shooting Putins plane down" that I do not see fit: First of all, motive: Why would they shoot down Putins plane? If anything, the crisis has shown that neither EU or US wants a direct military involvement (boots on the ground has been denied vehemently all the way) so it is not going to go down that way. Besides, Putin is not the most extreme politician in Russia and shooting down his plane would for certain give Russia a valid reason to invade. Since Ukraine has so much worse of an army, the result would be very undesirable for the ukrainian government. I just cannot see a positive result from doing that. Second of all, execution: If you have as advanced weaponry as this, you would be lacking severely in training to take the shot if in doubt. As much as defections has hit the ukrainian army, I find it unlikely for them to lack soldiers trained in using this equipment. I think it is safe to discount that theory. If Ukraine shot the plane down, it had to be a black flag operation or a freak-accident (as far as I know there are no pro-russian militia controlled aircrafts in operation). I don't see that as very likely either, but I am willing to reconsider if sufficient evidence leaks about where the SAM was when it fired. So far it seems very unlikely that anyone but an insufficiently trained militia-man took the shot by accident. That is my first guess, the rebels. I am however have serious concerns about the current Ukrainian government and it's sheer ability to control the country.
Sheer ability to control the country? If anything they are not controlling it at all, with russia already in possession of the crimea and now trying to get the region controlled by the rebels.
|
On July 21 2014 23:07 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:02 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 22:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ... It will give Ukraine more international support and money. There's no way the Ukraine could've done that without anyone noticing, so at the very least you'd have to be so paranoid to assume that this was a joint operation between the Ukraine, the US and probably a few other countries.
You have too much trust in goverment, it has already happened actually see:
Ukrainian international reserves in 2014 year (in US dollars)
01.01.2014 20415,7 +1603.8 +8.5% <-- nice income chunk in times of revolution
01.02.2014 17805,6 -2610.1 -12.8%
01.03.2014 15462,3 -2343.3 -13.2%
01.04.2014 15085,5 -376.8 -2.4%
01.05.2014 14226,3 -859.3 -5.7%
01.06.2014 17898,6 +3672.3 +25.8% <--- where did all these money come from?
|
On July 21 2014 23:15 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:07 Conti wrote:On July 21 2014 23:02 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 22:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ... It will give Ukraine more international support and money. There's no way the Ukraine could've done that without anyone noticing, so at the very least you'd have to be so paranoid to assume that this was a joint operation between the Ukraine, the US and probably a few other countries. You have too much trust in goverment, it has already happened actually see: Ukrainian international reserves in 2014 year (in US dollars) 01.01.2014 20415,7 +1603.8 +8.5% 01.02.2014 17805,6 -2610.1 -12.8% 01.03.2014 15462,3 -2343.3 -13.2% 01.04.2014 15085,5 -376.8 -2.4% 01.05.2014 14226,3 -859.3 -5.7% 01.06.2014 17898,6 +3672.3 +25.8% <--- where did all these money come from?
Well if that doesn't prove everything I'll be damned. Thank you for showing me the light.
|
The article about journalist Anna Nemtsova being detained is intriguing, and I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. But having a picture of armed men in front of the Ukrainian flag in an article about pro-Russia rebels seems to be a sloppy job by the editor (or whomever is responsible for photos) at the very least..
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
