Malaysian airliner shot down over Eastern Ukraine - Page 59

On July 22 2014 02:59 mainerd wrote:

The page had already changed by the time I checked it after your post.

Wikipedia may want to lock some of their pages related to the incident :X

On July 22 2014 05:09 Sub40APM wrote:
Isnt it 9 pm already in Donetsk, did the Malaysians get the black-boxes? The reporters I am reading saying no.

In Donetsk, black box negotiations remain murky and fraught, my colleague Shaun Walker reports.

From the hotel where the Malaysian delegation met rebel leaders, he tells me that "Talks are ongoing, but it's unclear if this is a handover or a negotiation."

When the initial meeting took place, a "massive media scrum" took over the hotel lobby and it seems the black boxes never actually arrived with the rebel representatives.

The Kyiv Post's Christopher Miller and Buzzfeed's Max Seddon have similar accounts.

The result of all this Russian coverage is that Russians’ understanding of what happened is as follows. At best, the crash is an unfortunate accident on the part of the Ukrainian military that the West is trying to pin on Russia, which had nothing to do with it; at worst, it is all part of a nefarious conspiracy to drag Russia into an apocalyptic war with the West. So whereas the West sees the crash as a game-changer, the Russians do not see why a black swan event has to change anything or they want to resist what they see is a provocation. To them, after a few days of watching Russian television, it’s not at all clear what happened nor that their government is somehow responsible for this tragedy. And the more we insist on it, the less likely the Russians are to agree.

Floriana Fossato, a longtime scholar of Russian media, says that this, coupled with the media’s conscious use of the Soviet language of crisis—“traitors,” “fascists,” “fifth columns”—quickly brings to the surface the psychological demons of a society massively traumatized by the twentieth century, traumas that society has never adequately addressed. The result, she says, is a kind of collective PTSD-meets-Stockholm Syndrome.

In Russians' view, “Americans have recreated the situation where they have excuse for intervention,” Fossato says. “No one admits that they are afraid, but they are. They are panicked. And they are right in being afraid because they know what happened, and they know there must be an answer to what is going on. And so they lock onto Putin for protection. This is why they don’t turn to Putin and ask him to do something.”

But in addition to the Russian public not clamoring for decisive action from Putin, there is a far more serious problem. As The New Yorker's David Remnick noted in his column on the crash of MH17, Putin has become prisoner to his own propaganda machine, much as he’s become prisoner of the rebels he thought were doing his geopolitical dirty work in Ukraine.

On July 22 2014 03:53 Sub40APM wrote:

Ya, really fascinating to check out the edit history in line with the Russian briefing about the putative Ukrainian Su-25 intercepting the jet. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sukhoi_Su-25&action=history

The weirdest thing in the same briefing they also blamed Ukrainian Buk's for the shot down. The more trash you throw on the wall, the more likely something will stick I guess.

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Dutch prosecutors have opened an investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 on suspicion of murder, war crimes and intentionally downing an airliner, a spokesman said on Monday. Based on the Law on International Crimes, the Netherlands can prosecute any individual who committed a war crime against a Dutch citizen. The 298 people who were killed when the plane was downed over Ukraine included 193 Dutch citizens.

The spokesman said that a Dutch public prosecutor was in Ukraine as part of the investigation.

The Dutch prime minister meanwhile threatened tough action against Russia if it did not do more to help.

On July 22 2014 05:09 Derez wrote:
...At this point its pretty freaking obvious what happened and the results of any investigation will be less than what the Russians will consider unimpeachable, so what's the point?

On July 22 2014 03:05 Nyxisto wrote:
You have to keep in mind though that the service ceiling is the height at which an aircraft can climb 100 feet/minute(or 500 feet/min for jets) and is fully operational. This is not to be confused with the Maximum Operating Altitude which basically means "it flies as high as it physically can". Some planes can double their service ceiling, for example most commercial airplanes can go up to 40k feet, while the service ceiling is something like 30k.

On July 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:


Not to mention, you have to add the range of the missile as well. Apparently the SU25 can carry either R-60 or K-13 missiles, with a range of roughly 22500 feet (8km) and 72000 feet (22km). So a jet at 22000 feet still can reach a plane at 40000 feet with it's missiles, operational/service ceiling doesn't matter in this case, doesn't tell anything.

But it's moot anyway, the investigations should tell pretty easy if it was hit by a AA missile or a BUK System. Even with those potatorrists running around like retards on the wreckage (quite a difference between a 7kg warhead and a 70kg warhead).

While it may never come out who actually fired whatever was fired, i'm pretty convinced that at least the type of missile will be found out.

On July 22 2014 09:04 Sub40APM wrote:

Sure, a jet could. But according to Russian deputy minister of defense the Su-25 was following MH17 for protracted period of time at the same altitude before shooting it down with an air to air missile. Which it fired simultaneously with a BUK SAM battery that the Ukrainians snuck deep into rebel territory.