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On July 21 2014 23:22 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:15 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 23:07 Conti wrote:On July 21 2014 23:02 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 22:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ... It will give Ukraine more international support and money. There's no way the Ukraine could've done that without anyone noticing, so at the very least you'd have to be so paranoid to assume that this was a joint operation between the Ukraine, the US and probably a few other countries. You have too much trust in goverment, it has already happened actually see: Ukrainian international reserves in 2014 year (in US dollars) 01.01.2014 20415,7 +1603.8 +8.5% 01.02.2014 17805,6 -2610.1 -12.8% 01.03.2014 15462,3 -2343.3 -13.2% 01.04.2014 15085,5 -376.8 -2.4% 01.05.2014 14226,3 -859.3 -5.7% 01.06.2014 17898,6 +3672.3 +25.8% <--- where did all these money come from? Well if that doesn't prove everything I'll be damned. Thank you for showing me the light.
Do you have any facts to support your version?
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On July 21 2014 23:07 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:02 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 22:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ... It will give Ukraine more international support and money. There's no way the Ukraine could've done that without anyone noticing, so at the very least you'd have to be so paranoid to assume that this was a joint operation between the Ukraine, the US and probably a few other countries.
Yea, the Americans would have seen it on the sattelite images. There's no way the Ukrainian government could have launched these missilles from sepratist controlled land. Plus there is one good argument against the whole "Ukrainian government shoot down the plane" argument. The sepratists don't have planes, the Ukrainians haven't used a single ground to air rocket the entire conflict.So why would they now. Plus killing Putin would have been the end of the Ukrain as a souverein state, the Russian would have invaded and the international community would be way to slow to react. Lose, lose situation for the Ukrainians.
And I wanted to share this: http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6609806/51fd8b6e/anne_applebaum_geeft_poetin_de_schuld_van_mh17_aanslag.html
Dutch website, but the clip is in English.
Gave me some insight as to how the Russians are involved in the conflict. I had no idea this way the Russians approached the conflict.
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Well you see the Ukranians and Americans actually had an elite team of special operatives along with an experienced semi driver smuggle what I estimate to be a 20-30 ton missile launcher and a bunch of missiles deep into rebel territory. After insertion, they stayed hidden from the hundreds of rebel patrols and waited until a civilian airline was over the area and shot it down. Then they bribed some Russians/ rebels to drive the launcher into Russia to make it look like it was theirs all along.
/sarcasm
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On July 21 2014 23:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
Well you see the Ukranians and Americans actually had an elite team of special operatives along with an experienced semi driver smuggle what I estimate to be a 20-30 ton missile launcher and a bunch of missiles deep into rebel territory. After insertion, they stayed hidden from the hundreds of rebel patrols and waited until a civilian airline was over the area and shot it down. Then they bribed some Russians/ rebels to drive the launcher into Russia to make it look like it was theirs all along.
/sarcasm
zeo approves
User was warned for this post
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On July 21 2014 23:50 ticklishmusic wrote:
Well you see the Ukranians and Americans actually had an elite team of special operatives along with an experienced semi driver smuggle what I estimate to be a 20-30 ton missile launcher and a bunch of missiles deep into rebel territory. After insertion, they stayed hidden from the hundreds of rebel patrols and waited until a civilian airline was over the area and shot it down. Then they bribed some Russians/ rebels to drive the launcher into Russia to make it look like it was theirs all along.
/sarcasm
Sarcasm is a good way of showing the ridiculousness of some of the claims that are made. Unfortunately the blind will never see the light..
(still a good post though)
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On July 21 2014 23:28 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:22 Conti wrote:On July 21 2014 23:15 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 23:07 Conti wrote:On July 21 2014 23:02 myminerals wrote:On July 21 2014 22:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 21 2014 22:14 myminerals wrote:
I actually hope the this tragedy was a horrible mistake of the rebels because if it's not and the plane was hit by the order of the Ukrainian government whose decisions are under US control, this whole region have all chances of becoming another war zone.
I am not saying that Russia is not adding fuel to fire by supplying the rebels with weapons, it does, I just hope it was a mistake and not a planned action. Why the Ukrainian gov ? what would they have to gain from doing that? ... It will give Ukraine more international support and money. There's no way the Ukraine could've done that without anyone noticing, so at the very least you'd have to be so paranoid to assume that this was a joint operation between the Ukraine, the US and probably a few other countries. You have too much trust in goverment, it has already happened actually see: Ukrainian international reserves in 2014 year (in US dollars) 01.01.2014 20415,7 +1603.8 +8.5% 01.02.2014 17805,6 -2610.1 -12.8% 01.03.2014 15462,3 -2343.3 -13.2% 01.04.2014 15085,5 -376.8 -2.4% 01.05.2014 14226,3 -859.3 -5.7% 01.06.2014 17898,6 +3672.3 +25.8% <--- where did all these money come from? Well if that doesn't prove everything I'll be damned. Thank you for showing me the light. Do you have any facts to support your version?
Before you put data and then make your own facts try to put up sources before actually claming anything.
IMF payed Ukraine 3.2 billion dollars from a 17.1 billion dollar loan starting in May. So the money comes from a IMF loan for economic reforms for Ukraine.
src
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On July 22 2014 00:13 shannn wrote:IMF payed Ukraine 3.2 billion dollars from a 17.1 billion dollar loan starting in May. So the money comes from a IMF loan for economic reforms for Ukraine. src
Nice timing lol.
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President Barack Obama spoke Monday on the investigation into the Malaysian airliner crash in Ukraine, saying Russian-backed separatists are blocking the probe at the crash site.
"What are they trying to hide?" Obama asked.
Obama said the "immediate focus" in the aftermath is "on recovering those who were lost, investigating exactly what happened and putting forward the facts."
"We have to make sure that the truth is out and that accountability exists," Obama said.
Obama said Russia has "direct responsibility" to allow international access to the crash site in order for a proper investigation to take place.
"Now's a time for President Putin and Russia to pivot away from the strategy they've been taking," Obama said.
Putin has avoided taking blame for the crash, pointing a finger instead at Ukraine.
Source
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On July 21 2014 22:46 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 22:17 zlefin wrote:
please don't talk nonsense like the Ukraine government being under US control.
Even if it wasn't the rebels who shot down the plane; it was still likely an accident.
And Donetsk region shale gas deposits are completely out of the picture here, right? And the fact that there were rumours about Yatsenyuk transferring monetary gold to US is also just rumours. And if we look at the reserves balance during that time we won't see anything strange, right? Ukrainian international reserves (gold) from 2010 to 2014 years (in US dollars) 01.01.2011 1249,0 +301.0 +31.751% 01.01.2012 1385,3 +136.3 +10.912% 01.01.2013 1890,4 +505.1 +36.460% 01.01.2014 1640,2 -250.2 -13.236% 01.06.2014 1618,2 -21.9 -1.336% taken from http://index.minfin.com.ua/I am not hiding that I don't like the current Ukrainian government, I didn't like the former as well, but at least planes did not fell and towns were not bombed.
1. I am a native Russian speaker too, First Channel on the 18th led with the Beoing shut down. The story begins with interviews of various rebels putting forward their various claims: Trying to kill Putin, trying to set up Russia and so forth.
2. Pravda -- what you may call yellow press but that receives a significant number of readers that would put it in top 5 papers in Russia -- ran with the various conspiracies. They ran the gamut from Ukraine is trying to hide that freedom fighters are about to invade Kiev to Americans did it to its just like the other Malaysia flight that was being used to try to frame Russia.
3. Argumenti i fakti -- a 'more serious' paper -- front story right now is 'Russian Federation detected Ukrainian fighter jets following the Malaysian liner" TODAY.
4. lenta.ru -- whose editor was fired by the Kremlin and replaced by a loyalst during this crisis -- the lead story is "Poroshenko denies Ukrainian Fighter jet responsible for Boeing" in the side window a story goes "Ukrainian Boeing was in the same space!"
Fair enough, you let your bias now and quite honestly I think we should salute you for stating repeatedly that you do believe the rebels did it or that Russian press stinks but please then also accept the fact that there is a tremendous amount of conspiracy theories floated by media outlets that would be classified as 'main stream' in other countries in Russia and that you've inadvertently could have picked some of those conspiracies up.
+ Show Spoiler +
Just some other points: The "Donestk" shalegas field lies over both Kharkiv and Northern Donetsk oblast. Its true that a small percentage of it lies in rebel territory but so does a large part of Soviet-era industry that eats that gas up. Letting the rebels kidnap two provinces would be energy net positive.
And about the gold: Yanukovich ran down the economy to the point where Ukraine was out of hard currency, Russia offered to supply it and then when he went out the IMF offered to supply it but with stringent reform requirements -- including depositing some of the gold with the IMF. When the first tranche of Ukrain's IMF loan was cleared the gold stocks were re-stocked.
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I think if the plane got shot down, it was by mistake from either side. I'd rather believe it was the "rebels "or russian military personal aiding the "rebels". They shot down several ukrainian Trooptransport & helis already showing their capability.
What I like to know, would the Nato actually be able to send AWACS to at least surveillance the Ukrainian airspace ? And further could the Radar of an AWACS detect a BUK Missle?
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Holy... In a move foreseen by exactly no-one, the Malaysian PM successfully negotiated with the rebels to get the bodies and black boxes out of the combat zone:
PRIME MINISTER NAJIB RAZAK STATEMENT ON MH17 AGREEMENT In recent days, we have been working behind the scenes to establish contact with those in charge of the MH17 crash site. That contact has now been made. Under difficult and fluid circumstances, we have been discussing the problems that have occupied us all: securing vital evidence from the aircraft, launching an independent investigation, and above all recovering the remains of those who lost their lives. Tonight, we have established the basis of an agreement to do just that. Earlier this evening I spoke to Alexander Borodai, who is in command of the region where the tragedy occurred. We have agreed the following: · Firstly, the remains of 282 people, currently in Torez, will be moved by train to Kharkiv, where they will be handed over to representatives from the Netherlands. The train will depart this evening Ukraine time, and will be accompanied by six Malaysian members of the recovery team. The remains will then be flown to Amsterdam on board a Dutch C130 Hercules, together with the Malaysian team. Following any necessary forensic work, the remains of Malaysian citizens will then be flown home to Malaysia. · Secondly, at approximately 9pm tonight Ukraine time, the two black boxes will be handed over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk, who will take custody of them. · Thirdly, independent international investigators will be guaranteed safe access to the crash site to begin a full investigation of the incident. I must stress that although agreement has been reached, there remain a number of steps required before it is completed. There is work still to be done, work which relies on continued communication in good faith. Mr Borodai and his people have so far given their co-operation. + Show Spoiler +
I ask that all parties continue to work together to ensure that this agreement is honoured; that the remains of our people are returned, that the black box is handed over, and that the international team is granted full access to the site.
Only then can the investigation into MH17 truly begin; only then can the victims be afforded the respect they deserve. We need to know what caused the plane to crash, and who was responsible for it, so that justice may be done.
In recent days, there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel. And that I feel. But sometimes, we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome.
I understand that for the families, nothing can undo this damage. The lives taken cannot be given back; the dignity lost cannot be regained.
My heart reaches out to those whose loved ones were lost on MH17. We hope and pray that the agreement reached tonight helps bring them a clear step towards closure.
All kudos to Najib Razak.
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On July 22 2014 02:29 Ghanburighan wrote:Holy... In a move foreseen by exactly no-one, the Malaysian PM successfully negotiated with the rebels to get the bodies and black boxes out of the combat zone: Show nested quote +PRIME MINISTER NAJIB RAZAK STATEMENT ON MH17 AGREEMENT In recent days, we have been working behind the scenes to establish contact with those in charge of the MH17 crash site. That contact has now been made. Under difficult and fluid circumstances, we have been discussing the problems that have occupied us all: securing vital evidence from the aircraft, launching an independent investigation, and above all recovering the remains of those who lost their lives. Tonight, we have established the basis of an agreement to do just that. Earlier this evening I spoke to Alexander Borodai, who is in command of the region where the tragedy occurred. We have agreed the following: · Firstly, the remains of 282 people, currently in Torez, will be moved by train to Kharkiv, where they will be handed over to representatives from the Netherlands. The train will depart this evening Ukraine time, and will be accompanied by six Malaysian members of the recovery team. The remains will then be flown to Amsterdam on board a Dutch C130 Hercules, together with the Malaysian team. Following any necessary forensic work, the remains of Malaysian citizens will then be flown home to Malaysia. · Secondly, at approximately 9pm tonight Ukraine time, the two black boxes will be handed over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk, who will take custody of them. · Thirdly, independent international investigators will be guaranteed safe access to the crash site to begin a full investigation of the incident. I must stress that although agreement has been reached, there remain a number of steps required before it is completed. There is work still to be done, work which relies on continued communication in good faith. Mr Borodai and his people have so far given their co-operation. + Show Spoiler +
I ask that all parties continue to work together to ensure that this agreement is honoured; that the remains of our people are returned, that the black box is handed over, and that the international team is granted full access to the site.
Only then can the investigation into MH17 truly begin; only then can the victims be afforded the respect they deserve. We need to know what caused the plane to crash, and who was responsible for it, so that justice may be done.
In recent days, there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel. And that I feel. But sometimes, we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome.
I understand that for the families, nothing can undo this damage. The lives taken cannot be given back; the dignity lost cannot be regained.
My heart reaches out to those whose loved ones were lost on MH17. We hope and pray that the agreement reached tonight helps bring them a clear step towards closure.
All kudos to Najib Razak.
You beat me to it. He was uniquely positioned to make a deal with the rebels, and he managed to not screw it up.
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anything conclusive yet as to who shot the airliner down?
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http://qz.com/237962/obama-and-putin-today-went-to-battle-over-what-happened-to-malaysia-airlines-flight-17/
But Putin’s government also held a news conference today, in which it denied that Russia had supplied the separatists with a BUK missile system “or any other weapons,” and suggested that the Ukrainian government is the prime suspect in the crash. Air Force Lieutenant General Igor Makushev said that Russian radar detected the presence of Ukrainian fighter jets close to the Malaysian flight, suggesting that one of them may have shot down the airliner.
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“Russian air space control systems detected a Ukrainian Air Force plane, presumably an SU-25 (fighter jet), scrambling in the direction of the Malaysian Boeing,” Makushev said, quoted by Reuters. “The distance of the SU-25 plane from the Boeing was from 3 to 5 kilometres (2 to 3 miles).”
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Gotta love the Russian editors of wikipedia. Here is the Su-25 wiki page, subsection Ukrainian conflict
On 21 July 2014, Russian Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartapolov stated that there was no proof for Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 being shot down by a rebel BUK anti-air missile. Instead, the Russian General showed proof of a Ukrainian Su-25 flying as close as 3,000 meters to the Malaysia aircraft before it crashed; he asked the Ukrainian government for an official statement on this finding,[52] although this is questionable given the Su-25's maximum service ceiling is 16,000 ft fully armed.
There was different information on SU-25 service ceiling just a few years ago - and these specs didn't change since (only the article was edited and somehow the editing history too [not deep enough at the moment] to support US version of Ukrainian war). The ceiling was 24000 ft while fully armed. Besides, being fully armed, it can still reach 35000 ft if only for a little while and attack it's airborne targets (check the term [ceiling]). SU-25 jet is fully capable of shooting down a Boeing 777 passenger airplane at 33000-35000 feet. And if you consider that one can arm it with just a few AA missiles specifically for this purpose, this capability increases greatly.
Then click on the capabilities: fully loaded : 16,000 feet. Unarmed, 22,000 feet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29
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I am no expert, but I think it should be fairly simple to tell if a plane was hit with an air-to-air missile versus a surface-to-air one once investigators have the opportunity to study the debris field and wreckage.
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On July 22 2014 02:45 Sub40APM wrote:Gotta love the Russian editors of wikipedia. Here is the Su-25 wiki page, subsection Ukrainian conflict Show nested quote +On 21 July 2014, Russian Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartapolov stated that there was no proof for Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 being shot down by a rebel BUK anti-air missile. Instead, the Russian General showed proof of a Ukrainian Su-25 flying as close as 3,000 meters to the Malaysia aircraft before it crashed; he asked the Ukrainian government for an official statement on this finding,[52] although this is questionable given the Su-25's maximum service ceiling is 16,000 ft fully armed.
There was different information on SU-25 service ceiling just a few years ago - and these specs didn't change since (only the article was edited and somehow the editing history too [not deep enough at the moment] to support US version of Ukrainian war). The ceiling was 24000 ft while fully armed. Besides, being fully armed, it can still reach 35000 ft if only for a little while and attack it's airborne targets (check the term [ceiling]). SU-25 jet is fully capable of shooting down a Boeing 777 passenger airplane at 33000-35000 feet. And if you consider that one can arm it with just a few AA missiles specifically for this purpose, this capability increases greatly. Then click on the capabilities: fully loaded : 16,000 feet. Unarmed, 22,000 feet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29
The page had already changed by the time I checked it after your post.
he asked the Ukrainian government for an official statement on this finding,[52] although this is above the Su-25's maximum service ceiling when fully armed.[citation needed]It was me russian asshole
Wikipedia may want to lock some of their pages related to the incident :X
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/it-wasnt-us-russian-generals-scour-the-internet-for-mh17-the
A list of 10 questions compiled by Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov referred to tweets supposedly from a Spanish air traffic controller in Kiev who claimed that Flight 17 was escorted by two Ukrainian fighters — despite Spain’s assertion that no such person actually exists.
Kartapolov went one step further by intimating the U.S. helped shoot down the plane with an experimental rocket-tracking satellite that he said flew over Ukrainian airspace just before the crash. “Coincidence or no, the time of the crash matches the time the satellite flew over,” he said. Kartapolov demanded that the U.S. turn over images from the satellite that intelligence officials say helped them identify the surface-to-air missile that shot down the plane. “Nobody has seen these images,” he said.
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You have to keep in mind though that the service ceiling is the height at which an aircraft can climb 100 feet/minute(or 500 feet/min for jets) and is fully operational. This is not to be confused with the Maximum Operating Altitude which basically means "it flies as high as it physically can". Some planes can double their service ceiling, for example most commercial airplanes can go up to 40k feet, while the service ceiling is something like 30k.
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On July 22 2014 03:00 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/it-wasnt-us-russian-generals-scour-the-internet-for-mh17-theShow nested quote + A list of 10 questions compiled by Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov referred to tweets supposedly from a Spanish air traffic controller in Kiev who claimed that Flight 17 was escorted by two Ukrainian fighters — despite Spain’s assertion that no such person actually exists.
Kartapolov went one step further by intimating the U.S. helped shoot down the plane with an experimental rocket-tracking satellite that he said flew over Ukrainian airspace just before the crash. “Coincidence or no, the time of the crash matches the time the satellite flew over,” he said. Kartapolov demanded that the U.S. turn over images from the satellite that intelligence officials say helped them identify the surface-to-air missile that shot down the plane. “Nobody has seen these images,” he said.
Jesus Christ, next time we will hear that there was a peaceful rocket taking a stride and a druken pilot flew into it on purpose.........
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EPT
