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On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 14:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:07 Nevermind86 wrote:On June 19 2006 06:36 venusian.kohai wrote:
people suiciding are so egocentric, they all think the world revolves around them. If you cannot live your life for yourself, then what's the point. I find infinitely more selfish the people that want to see you live so they can visit you once a year, even though your life really sucks, you become an antiquity or a strange object that can talk back about better days. Suicide takes a lot of fucking courage. Courage? I think the struggle to keep going, pushing yourself, and hoping to one day persevere takes way more courage. Suicide is cowardice. It is taking the easy way out of your problems. Think about it! Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O
Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability.
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On April 17 2012 15:39 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 15:38 Brutaxilos wrote:On April 17 2012 15:26 Release wrote:
If people actually want to kill themselves, they won't leave a note. That takes too much time.
People who actually want to kill themselves spend time researching how and what is the best way; things like where to shoot for the highest fatality rate, where to stab, where to jump, etc, etc.
Anyone who publicizes their suicide is not suicidal, but rather, is "calling for attention" -Nevermind86 (couldn't have said it better myself). Yes, committing suicide is calling for attention. But who are you to say that attention isn't important for a human being? Have you ever been ignored by everyone you've ever wanted to talk to? Do you understand the drive that, through hopelessness and frustration, forces a person to take the final step to gaining the attention he or she needs? Humans are social animals, the need for interaction is as integral as the need to eat and drink. But they are not suicidal. They are pretending to commit suicide to achieve their goal, which is to get attention, not to commit suicide. I'm not saying attention isn't important, it is. But at the end of the day, they want to be alive.
I'm saying this from personal experience. I have and still do contemplate suicide. Why? The best way to describe it would be revenge. When people do shitty things to you, you can't do anything about it. In our world today, we are only beginning to realize that psychological pain is just as real as physical pain. If someone harms you psychologically, you can't harm them physically, or else something like school shootings occur. The one who commits the physical attack always gets the most animosity from society. Something like committing suicide does two things. It elicits sympathy from society. They all begin to question themselves on how they could have and should have helped you. And it makes people feel guilty. This guilt is what people want.
I'm probably going off topic, I apologize. This is just an issue that I really take personally.
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On April 17 2012 16:11 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 15:39 Release wrote:On April 17 2012 15:38 Brutaxilos wrote:On April 17 2012 15:26 Release wrote:
If people actually want to kill themselves, they won't leave a note. That takes too much time.
People who actually want to kill themselves spend time researching how and what is the best way; things like where to shoot for the highest fatality rate, where to stab, where to jump, etc, etc.
Anyone who publicizes their suicide is not suicidal, but rather, is "calling for attention" -Nevermind86 (couldn't have said it better myself). Yes, committing suicide is calling for attention. But who are you to say that attention isn't important for a human being? Have you ever been ignored by everyone you've ever wanted to talk to? Do you understand the drive that, through hopelessness and frustration, forces a person to take the final step to gaining the attention he or she needs? Humans are social animals, the need for interaction is as integral as the need to eat and drink. But they are not suicidal. They are pretending to commit suicide to achieve their goal, which is to get attention, not to commit suicide. I'm not saying attention isn't important, it is. But at the end of the day, they want to be alive. I'm saying this from personal experience. I have and still do contemplate suicide. Why? The best way to describe it would be revenge. When people do shitty things to you, you can't do anything about it. In our world today, we are only beginning to realize that psychological pain is just as real as physical pain. If someone harms you psychologically, you can't harm them physically, or else something like school shootings occur. The one who commits the physical attack always gets the most animosity from society. Something like committing suicide does two things. It elicits sympathy from society. They all begin to question themselves on how they could have and should have helped you. And it makes people feel guilty. This guilt is what people want. I'm probably going off topic, I apologize. This is just an issue that I really take personally.
Do you publicize you suicide?
If you say yes, and then don't kill yourself, then probably not suicidal but wanting attention.
If you say yes, and do kill yourself, why would you publicize it in the first place? When you're dead, the people around you don't effect you anymore. You don't get to see their reactions.
If you say no, and do kill yourself, then you were suicidal
If you say no, but contemplate it, then you are probably suicidal, although you have to contemplate suicide and not some fantasy scheme of note writing.
I really don't want to be sexist here so i'll spoiler what i say next:
+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE]WebMDWomen try suicide more often, but men are 4 times more likely to die from a suicide attempt.
This is a prime example of "do you really want to kill yourself? or do you just want attention?"
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On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 14:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:07 Nevermind86 wrote:On June 19 2006 06:36 venusian.kohai wrote:
people suiciding are so egocentric, they all think the world revolves around them. If you cannot live your life for yourself, then what's the point. I find infinitely more selfish the people that want to see you live so they can visit you once a year, even though your life really sucks, you become an antiquity or a strange object that can talk back about better days. Suicide takes a lot of fucking courage. Courage? I think the struggle to keep going, pushing yourself, and hoping to one day persevere takes way more courage. Suicide is cowardice. It is taking the easy way out of your problems. Think about it! Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability.
Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it.
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On April 17 2012 16:11 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 15:39 Release wrote:On April 17 2012 15:38 Brutaxilos wrote:On April 17 2012 15:26 Release wrote:
If people actually want to kill themselves, they won't leave a note. That takes too much time.
People who actually want to kill themselves spend time researching how and what is the best way; things like where to shoot for the highest fatality rate, where to stab, where to jump, etc, etc.
Anyone who publicizes their suicide is not suicidal, but rather, is "calling for attention" -Nevermind86 (couldn't have said it better myself). Yes, committing suicide is calling for attention. But who are you to say that attention isn't important for a human being? Have you ever been ignored by everyone you've ever wanted to talk to? Do you understand the drive that, through hopelessness and frustration, forces a person to take the final step to gaining the attention he or she needs? Humans are social animals, the need for interaction is as integral as the need to eat and drink. But they are not suicidal. They are pretending to commit suicide to achieve their goal, which is to get attention, not to commit suicide. I'm not saying attention isn't important, it is. But at the end of the day, they want to be alive. I'm saying this from personal experience. I have and still do contemplate suicide. Why? The best way to describe it would be revenge. When people do shitty things to you, you can't do anything about it. In our world today, we are only beginning to realize that psychological pain is just as real as physical pain. If someone harms you psychologically, you can't harm them physically, or else something like school shootings occur. The one who commits the physical attack always gets the most animosity from society. Something like committing suicide does two things. It elicits sympathy from society. They all begin to question themselves on how they could have and should have helped you. And it makes people feel guilty. This guilt is what people want. I'm probably going off topic, I apologize. This is just an issue that I really take personally.
Pardon if I come off a wrong way here. There are a lot of shitty people in the world, I don't think killing yourself to get revenge on a couple is worth it. In fact, I think going on with life and rising above them is a better revenge. Eventually they will forget anyways.
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On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 14:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:07 Nevermind86 wrote:On June 19 2006 06:36 venusian.kohai wrote:
people suiciding are so egocentric, they all think the world revolves around them. If you cannot live your life for yourself, then what's the point. I find infinitely more selfish the people that want to see you live so they can visit you once a year, even though your life really sucks, you become an antiquity or a strange object that can talk back about better days. Suicide takes a lot of fucking courage. Courage? I think the struggle to keep going, pushing yourself, and hoping to one day persevere takes way more courage. Suicide is cowardice. It is taking the easy way out of your problems. Think about it! Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it.
Well, it goes both ways: Some people are suicidal, but do it by researching methods and choosing one that suits their needs. Others will do something wreckless in the hope that they die.
I believe that the prior is more suicidal than the latter.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 14:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:07 Nevermind86 wrote:On June 19 2006 06:36 venusian.kohai wrote:
people suiciding are so egocentric, they all think the world revolves around them. If you cannot live your life for yourself, then what's the point. I find infinitely more selfish the people that want to see you live so they can visit you once a year, even though your life really sucks, you become an antiquity or a strange object that can talk back about better days. Suicide takes a lot of fucking courage. Courage? I think the struggle to keep going, pushing yourself, and hoping to one day persevere takes way more courage. Suicide is cowardice. It is taking the easy way out of your problems. Think about it! Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it.
And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread.
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On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 14:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:07 Nevermind86 wrote:On June 19 2006 06:36 venusian.kohai wrote:
people suiciding are so egocentric, they all think the world revolves around them. If you cannot live your life for yourself, then what's the point. I find infinitely more selfish the people that want to see you live so they can visit you once a year, even though your life really sucks, you become an antiquity or a strange object that can talk back about better days. Suicide takes a lot of fucking courage. Courage? I think the struggle to keep going, pushing yourself, and hoping to one day persevere takes way more courage. Suicide is cowardice. It is taking the easy way out of your problems. Think about it! Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread.
You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media?
Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it.
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On April 17 2012 16:30 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 14:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:07 Nevermind86 wrote:
[quote]
If you cannot live your life for yourself, then what's the point. I find infinitely more selfish the people that want to see you live so they can visit you once a year, even though your life really sucks, you become an antiquity or a strange object that can talk back about better days. Suicide takes a lot of fucking courage.
Courage? I think the struggle to keep going, pushing yourself, and hoping to one day persevere takes way more courage. Suicide is cowardice. It is taking the easy way out of your problems. Think about it! Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread. You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media? Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it.
You have a point. In old times, "To fall on one's sword" was considered an honorable death. And how can one forget the Kamikaze attacks that weren't very long ago. I guess it's all based on one's perception and outlook on suicide though. Now days, you are pretty much taught that it is wrong.
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There's way too much misinformation in this thread. Before I begin, anyone who feels that they are considering suicide should publicize it. Inform your parents, your significant other, a friend, or the one nice teacher you have at school. Tell someone and seek help.
First, suicide that is caused by depression or MDD (Major depressive disorder) is hard. The reason that it is hard is that the amount of lethargy caused by the disorder itself makes many people so disinterested in life in general that even the action of suicide appears pointless. Why do the work of killing yourself if there is no point in doing *anything*. This is why many SSRI anti-depressents come with a risk of suicide: since SSRI's usually take around a month for enough of the dose to be present to fight depression the medicine also comes with a light upper. This upper can cause people to, in some cases, have the energy that they need to carry through with suicide.
Second, bipolar disorder is typically characterized by phases of mania that last multiple days. I do know that the medical listing for bipoloar disorder is considering a new classification that will better take into account people who switch multiple times in a day, but, in general, if you're trying to diagnose yourself with this, you probably don't have it. Further, the reason that bipolar disorder is dangerous (and carries roughly double the suicide rate of people who have been diagnosed with mdd - 10-20%) is because it causes mixed states wherein a person is mentally depressed by is moving into a manic state: they have the energy to commit suicide.
Third, to say that people commit or threaten suicide in order to get attention is irrelevant and naive. Why would you chastise and insult people who are actually, and likely, seeking legitimate help. While I will not detail the most successful and generally painless methods of suicide here, I will say that they are not the obvious choices. Many people who deal with long term depression spend a lot of time figuring these things out and getting things together. I cannot believe that there is a thread full of people here who are basically insulting them. Quite frankly, anyone that is researching suicide, or is telling you that they want to kill themselves (especially if this occurs outside of a particularly sudden even - like a verbal fight in a couple) then whether or not it is "for attention" is completely irrelevant.
Fourth, yes suicide does happen, at times, as a spontaneous decision. This is not the majority of cases. While it may seem to some to be the more (as was even implied before) "manly" method, this is irrelevant. These types of spontaneous decisions are the ones which we, societally, are best able to work to prevent and limit.
TL;DR this thread is filled with highly under-educated speculation about suicide, major depressive disorder, and bipolar disorder. If you need help, get help. If you think people threaten suicide "just to get attention" just remember that you'll look like a serious fucking asshole when you're wrong. And you're wrong in many cases.
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On April 17 2012 16:36 Zerothegreat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:30 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 14:15 Zerothegreat wrote:
[quote]
Courage?
I think the struggle to keep going, pushing yourself, and hoping to one day persevere takes way more courage. Suicide is cowardice. It is taking the easy way out of your problems. Think about it! Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread. You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media? Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it. You have a point. In old times, "To fall on one's sword" was considered an honorable death. And how can one forget the Kamikaze attacks that weren't very long ago. I guess it's all based on one's perception and outlook on suicide though. Now days, you are pretty much taught that it is wrong.
That's because one of the most fundamental capitalist myths is "if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything", which is also means "if you don't have what you want, you're not working hard enough", which is the demented little half-sister of "if you're unhappy with your lot in life, suck it up and work harder", which is, disturbingly, what a lot of people have posted here saying.
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On April 17 2012 16:46 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:36 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:30 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:
[quote]
Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread. You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media? Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it. You have a point. In old times, "To fall on one's sword" was considered an honorable death. And how can one forget the Kamikaze attacks that weren't very long ago. I guess it's all based on one's perception and outlook on suicide though. Now days, you are pretty much taught that it is wrong. That's because one of the most fundamental capitalist myths is "if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything", which is also means "if you don't have what you want, you're not working hard enough", which is the demented little half-sister of "if you're unhappy with your lot in life, suck it up and work harder", which is, disturbingly, what a lot of people have posted here saying.
Oh but you're missing the best flaw of this myth: the idea that those who have many things, earned those things.
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On April 17 2012 00:57 W0L0L0 wrote:
So much ragequit, even irl.
Even if this is said in jest, and can be taken "as a joke", this is even some ways true.
If you do commit suicide, I do think that you're wrong. There is so much to live for, no matter where you are in life. There will always be.
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On April 17 2012 16:50 Testuser wrote:Even if this is said in jest, and can be taken "as a joke", this is even some ways true. If you do commit suicide, I do think that you're wrong. There is so much to live for, no matter where you are in life. There will always be.
What you're literally saying here is that people shouldn't commit suicide because you think life is worth living. All that you have done is communicate that you (1) have no idea how people who are seriously contemplating suicide feel and (2) decided that despite your lack of experience/understanding you can judge them.
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On April 17 2012 16:09 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 15:55 ppdealer wrote:On April 17 2012 15:39 Release wrote:On April 17 2012 15:38 Brutaxilos wrote:On April 17 2012 15:26 Release wrote:
If people actually want to kill themselves, they won't leave a note. That takes too much time.
People who actually want to kill themselves spend time researching how and what is the best way; things like where to shoot for the highest fatality rate, where to stab, where to jump, etc, etc.
Anyone who publicizes their suicide is not suicidal, but rather, is "calling for attention" -Nevermind86 (couldn't have said it better myself). Yes, committing suicide is calling for attention. But who are you to say that attention isn't important for a human being? Have you ever been ignored by everyone you've ever wanted to talk to? Do you understand the drive that, through hopelessness and frustration, forces a person to take the final step to gaining the attention he or she needs? Humans are social animals, the need for interaction is as integral as the need to eat and drink. But they are not suicidal. They are pretending to commit suicide to achieve their goal, which is to get attention, not to commit suicide. I'm not saying attention isn't important, it is. But at the end of the day, they want to be alive. That's one really dumb train of logic you have there. They killed themselves because in the end they want to be alive?? The other poster was talking about attention-seeking in terms of people publicizing their suicide attempt before they even commit it. These suicide notes on the other hand are from people already dead. If they are (actually dead), then they probably cried for attention by pretending to be suicidal, didn't get it, THEN actually became suicidal.
A lot of assumptions you have there.
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On April 17 2012 16:46 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:36 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:30 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 14:30 Mothra wrote:
[quote]
Persevere towards what? Majority of people have goals in life that the thought of accomplishing gives them pleasure. To a suicidal person I think there is no goal in this world that offers the prospect of pleasure to their mind. Therefore the goal becomes death. They are "pushing themselves and persevering" towards their goal of being dead. You seem to assume that killing yourself is easy, yet obviously it's something you've never succeeded at and possibly never even attempted. How can you know something is easy if you've never done it yourself? Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread. You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media? Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it. You have a point. In old times, "To fall on one's sword" was considered an honorable death. And how can one forget the Kamikaze attacks that weren't very long ago. I guess it's all based on one's perception and outlook on suicide though. Now days, you are pretty much taught that it is wrong. That's because one of the most fundamental capitalist myths is "if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything", which is also means "if you don't have what you want, you're not working hard enough", which is the demented little half-sister of "if you're unhappy with your lot in life, suck it up and work harder", which is, disturbingly, what a lot of people have posted here saying.
It's not just capitalist, I'd say religion plays a big part in it too. Religion is the reason a lot of people choose to live or die. Remember the 9/11 attacks, a suicidal attack for a religious cause. Also, Christians are taught that committing suicide is a great sin.
Personally, I think it is important to believe in something and always find a reason to live. A favorite quote of mine from the movie "Don Juan DeMarco" : "There are only four questions of value in life, Don Octavio. What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for, and what is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same – only love."
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On April 17 2012 16:52 ppdealer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:09 Release wrote:On April 17 2012 15:55 ppdealer wrote:On April 17 2012 15:39 Release wrote:On April 17 2012 15:38 Brutaxilos wrote:On April 17 2012 15:26 Release wrote:
If people actually want to kill themselves, they won't leave a note. That takes too much time.
People who actually want to kill themselves spend time researching how and what is the best way; things like where to shoot for the highest fatality rate, where to stab, where to jump, etc, etc.
Anyone who publicizes their suicide is not suicidal, but rather, is "calling for attention" -Nevermind86 (couldn't have said it better myself). Yes, committing suicide is calling for attention. But who are you to say that attention isn't important for a human being? Have you ever been ignored by everyone you've ever wanted to talk to? Do you understand the drive that, through hopelessness and frustration, forces a person to take the final step to gaining the attention he or she needs? Humans are social animals, the need for interaction is as integral as the need to eat and drink. But they are not suicidal. They are pretending to commit suicide to achieve their goal, which is to get attention, not to commit suicide. I'm not saying attention isn't important, it is. But at the end of the day, they want to be alive. That's one really dumb train of logic you have there. They killed themselves because in the end they want to be alive?? The other poster was talking about attention-seeking in terms of people publicizing their suicide attempt before they even commit it. These suicide notes on the other hand are from people already dead. If they are (actually dead), then they probably cried for attention by pretending to be suicidal, didn't get it, THEN actually became suicidal. A lot of assumptions you have there.
If by "assumptions" you mean he has succinctly pointed out the idiocy of calling something a "cry for attention", then okay... I guess he made an assumption. All the time all kinds of groups of people educate people that if they are contemplating suicide they should make it known and seek help. Then there are lots of assholes like you who insult them and chastise them as just "trying to get attention". Maybe they actually need attention and help so that they don't kill themselves. Clearly, by your logic, they should just keep quiet.
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On April 17 2012 16:48 Precipice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:46 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:36 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:30 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:
[quote]
Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread. You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media? Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it. You have a point. In old times, "To fall on one's sword" was considered an honorable death. And how can one forget the Kamikaze attacks that weren't very long ago. I guess it's all based on one's perception and outlook on suicide though. Now days, you are pretty much taught that it is wrong. That's because one of the most fundamental capitalist myths is "if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything", which is also means "if you don't have what you want, you're not working hard enough", which is the demented little half-sister of "if you're unhappy with your lot in life, suck it up and work harder", which is, disturbingly, what a lot of people have posted here saying. Oh but you're missing the best flaw of this myth: the idea that those who have many things, earned those things.
I have a casual theory that the whole mental healthcare discipline exists to stave off the domino effect of depression (depression leading to suicide, which leads to depression in others, which leads to their suicide), which could potentially cause the capitalist model to fail. And, yes, I appreciate the irony that this may make me seem paranoid. I don't know if I really believe this, but I do think contemporary psychology and psychiatry (separate from neuroscience) is mostly full of crap.
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On April 17 2012 16:53 Zerothegreat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:46 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:36 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:30 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 14:44 Zerothegreat wrote:
[quote]
Death is inevitable, we will all get there one day it isn't really a goal. And killing yourself is easy depending on how you do it and the situation in which you do it in. And how can anyone know if it is easy? Anyone that has done it is dead and can't tell you. At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread. You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media? Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it. You have a point. In old times, "To fall on one's sword" was considered an honorable death. And how can one forget the Kamikaze attacks that weren't very long ago. I guess it's all based on one's perception and outlook on suicide though. Now days, you are pretty much taught that it is wrong. That's because one of the most fundamental capitalist myths is "if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything", which is also means "if you don't have what you want, you're not working hard enough", which is the demented little half-sister of "if you're unhappy with your lot in life, suck it up and work harder", which is, disturbingly, what a lot of people have posted here saying. It's not just capitalist, I'd say religion plays a big part in it too. Religion is the reason a lot of people choose to live or die. Remember the 9/11 attacks, a suicidal attack for a religious cause. Also, Christians are taught that committing suicide is a great sin. Personally, I think it is important to believe in something and always find a reason to live. A favorite quote of mine from the movie "Don Juan DeMarco" : "There are only four questions of value in life, Don Octavio. What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for, and what is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same – only love."
Uhhhh... In saying "It's not just capitalist, I'd say religion..." you move this poster's argument outside of the context that it was operating in. That particular poster efficiently succeeded at isolating a major myth that has empowered many people's responses in this thread. Religion itself is of relatively little importance. It's only ability to impact people's decisions in regards to suicide (especially in cases of mental health issues) lies in the ultimate threat of hell. Thus religion is incapable of providing an ultimate consolation and succeeds, realistically, only in the threat of eternal torture. Ironically, many Christians still kill themselves. This should, just barely, give you an idea of how shitty some people feel: they would prefer an eternity in hell to a single life on this earth.
tl;dr Your critique of the poster you dealt with does not work with his argument in any way.
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On April 17 2012 16:55 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 16:48 Precipice wrote:On April 17 2012 16:46 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:36 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:30 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 16:24 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 16:20 Mothra wrote:On April 17 2012 16:11 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 17 2012 15:13 Zerothegreat wrote:On April 17 2012 15:11 khaydarin9 wrote:
[quote]
At risk of coming off the wrong way ... have you tried killing yourself? I suspect if you had, you wouldn't say it was "easy". Sure, the people who succeeded are dead, but there are plenty of people who have attempted suicide at some point in their lives who will tell you that it's not easy. I would suspect people that had the desire to live would find it very hard. But those who don't want to live will find it pretty easy. If you really wanted to kill yourself there are so many easy methods to do so these days. Edit: I was going to go into detail to answer your question on if I tried or not. But writing it and posting it here just feels "wrong." Going into those details make me feel disturbed. :O Ambiguous answer to the rhetorical question aside, the logistics of committing suicide successfully are reasonably complicated on a number of levels. Firstly, society is set up to keep us safe. We put fences around dangerous sites, we put voltage limits on domestic power supplies, we flag purchases of unusual volumes of medication, we have gun control (certain countries excepted). Significantly, there is also an immense amount of pressure to censor information that could make it easier for people to "harm themselves". There's an ongoing ideological battle in journalistic discourse about reporting suicides and if that encourages other people to attempt it. No one wants to be responsible for another person killing themselves, so even on the internet, it can be difficult to find the information that would help you in your plans. Secondly, we're culturally, and probably biologically, conditioned to keep ourselves alive. We look both ways before crossing the street, we put pressure on open wounds, etc. Reflexes and instincts are, almost by definition overwhelming, and difficult to subvert, particularly in moments of high stress. Thirdly, the human body is actually kind of a hard thing to kill, particularly when it's your own. Pain is a powerful motivator. Fear of pain is just as powerful, and people with suicidal ideation, being in pain, are desperate to not experience any more, but there are very, very few ways to kill yourself painlessly, and most methods of suicide, if failed, carry a high risk of living with more pain (mental, physical, social) or even disability. Well said. This is why whenever I hear someone say "suicide is easy" I figure they must not have seriously thought about it. And yet the number of suicides are very high. Especially in Japan as someone has mentioned earlier in the thread. You really want to play the numbers game? The "number of suicides is high" means what, exactly? High per capita? Compared to the number of attempted suicides? Compared to the number of people suffering from mental illness? What about the attempts that are never reported? What about deaths that are suicide but are not pronounced suicide by the coroner, and vice versa? What about, as I mentioned, the problematic relationship between suicide and journalism/the media? Japanese culture has had a terribly interesting relationship with suicide, going back thousands of years, in which I believe - and I have no background in Japanese history - suicide was not considered shameful, certainly not in the way that contemporary Western culture continues to consider it. You have a point. In old times, "To fall on one's sword" was considered an honorable death. And how can one forget the Kamikaze attacks that weren't very long ago. I guess it's all based on one's perception and outlook on suicide though. Now days, you are pretty much taught that it is wrong. That's because one of the most fundamental capitalist myths is "if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything", which is also means "if you don't have what you want, you're not working hard enough", which is the demented little half-sister of "if you're unhappy with your lot in life, suck it up and work harder", which is, disturbingly, what a lot of people have posted here saying. Oh but you're missing the best flaw of this myth: the idea that those who have many things, earned those things. I have a casual theory that the whole mental healthcare discipline exists to stave off the domino effect of depression (depression leading to suicide, which leads to depression in others, which leads to their suicide), which could potentially cause the capitalist model to fail. And, yes, I appreciate the irony that this may make me seem paranoid. I don't know if I really believe this, but I do think contemporary psychology and psychiatry (separate from neuroscience) is mostly full of crap.
Still not seeing what any of this has to do with the capitalist model. A communist or post-scarcity model would still be vulnerable to everybody committing suicide.
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EPT
