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On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement.
implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal.
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On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is.
No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different.
How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery.
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On July 31 2013 05:11 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:03 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:56 Shodaa wrote:
Yea sure, this is ok. I mean, this is not my point of view, but as long as you don't misgender or deny that person gender identity, I couldn't care less who you want to have sex with or not.
Im not sure what you mean by misgender, but if you mean using the wrong terminology, calling a trans woman a man for example I'm afraid i disagree. Many people dont know what they should call what and id reckon for 99% of the population saying a trans woman is/was a man instead of male (i could be using the wrong words here even..) would be normal and frankly also understandable. Not everyone is familiar with these terms just as you may not be familiar with terms in other areas Misgendering would be like using female pronouns for a person, then finding out she was born a boy and using male pronoun even though she identify and look like a woman and that it would be impossible to know that this person was trans unless she told you.But by your logic, it should be ok to call black people the n word because someone might not be aware of all the terminology and what is wrong/hurtful ? Of course not. Don't expect trans people to to be friendly if you insult them and unwilling to learn.
That bolded statement is extremely counter productive to the point you're attempting to make because the important thing to note here is that it doesn't matter one single bit what they look like but rather how they identify with themselves. What you've said has connotations that they need to actually look like a typical woman or misgendering would be less inappropriate.
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On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex
"Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words.
If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid.
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On July 31 2013 05:11 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:03 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:56 Shodaa wrote:
Yea sure, this is ok. I mean, this is not my point of view, but as long as you don't misgender or deny that person gender identity, I couldn't care less who you want to have sex with or not.
Im not sure what you mean by misgender, but if you mean using the wrong terminology, calling a trans woman a man for example I'm afraid i disagree. Many people dont know what they should call what and id reckon for 99% of the population saying a trans woman is/was a man instead of male (i could be using the wrong words here even..) would be normal and frankly also understandable. Not everyone is familiar with these terms just as you may not be familiar with terms in other areas Misgendering would be like using female pronouns for a person, then finding out she was born a boy and using male pronoun even though she identify and look like a woman and that it would be impossible to know that this person was trans unless she told you. But by your logic, it should be ok to call black people the n word because someone might not be aware of all the terminology and what is wrong/hurtful ? Of course not. Don't expect trans people to to be friendly if you insult them and unwilling to learn.
If you insist on calling someone something they dont want to be called after they informed you of their preference you're beind a dick, though often in trans debates people are called out for their ignorance, while its not so obvious for all what exact words are preferred and also not something which is of great importance or relevance in most peoples lives.
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On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid.
"Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders.
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On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery.
If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues.
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On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid.
On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders.
lol you are still the stupid one DinoMight. or at least very poorly educated.
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On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues.
That's like a super awesome hypothetical person that both doesn't exist anywhere in the world and isn't relevant to any thought experiment in this thread. Thanks for weighing in though.
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On July 31 2013 05:13 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement. implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal.
I didn't say that or imply it. I asked why it was necessary to define man, woman, male, female, etc. so specifically, is it so you don't accidentally sleep with someone of the same sex? Are you so afraid of this statistically negligible event happening that you feel the need to insult people who are different than you by saying "but seriously, you're not actually a woman"?
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On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues.
also i think you ment to be wrong using the words male and female.... at least that way you would be wrong and make sense instead of that mash up of unrelated words
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On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues.
lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited.
But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying.
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On July 31 2013 05:25 renoB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:13 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement. implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal. I didn't say that or imply it. I asked why it was necessary to define man, woman, male, female, etc. so specifically, is it so you don't accidentally sleep with someone of the same sex? Are you so afraid of this statistically negligible event happening that you feel the need to insult people who are different than you by saying "but seriously, you're not actually a woman"?
Seeing as transgender terminology isnt the most relevant and important thing to most peoples live im not sure where the problem is in asking a trans woman if she actually is a woman. Or would you expect everyone to ask "were you born with the body and genetilia of a male, but identify as a woman?".
Edit: im actually unsure of what youre saying. are you for labeling specifically or against it? you question its importance but imply using the wrong word is insulting. sorry if im overseeing something
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On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders.
What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one.
I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas.
What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?"
I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am.
Thanks.
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On July 31 2013 05:25 renoB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:13 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement. implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal. I didn't say that or imply it. I asked why it was necessary to define man, woman, male, female, etc. so specifically, is it so you don't accidentally sleep with someone of the same sex? Are you so afraid of this statistically negligible event happening that you feel the need to insult people who are different than you by saying "but seriously, you're not actually a woman"?
All right, this is pretty easy to avoid and there will be warning signs that will prevent you from sleeping with someone of the same sex. I don't think that is a major concern for most people in the world and is a problem that can be solved on case by case basis. I also don't think the labeling issue you are addressing will fix the problem, if it ever arises anywhere in the world.
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On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks.
man and women are societal constructs about the different genders.
male and female are sexes based on biology.
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On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery.
I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore."
It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally likely to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission.
I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary.
"Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery."
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On July 31 2013 05:33 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:25 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement. implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal. I didn't say that or imply it. I asked why it was necessary to define man, woman, male, female, etc. so specifically, is it so you don't accidentally sleep with someone of the same sex? Are you so afraid of this statistically negligible event happening that you feel the need to insult people who are different than you by saying "but seriously, you're not actually a woman"? Seeing as transgender terminology isnt the most relevant and important thing to most peoples live im not sure where the problem is in asking a trans woman if she actually is a woman. Or would you expect everyone to ask "were you born with the body and genetilia of a male, but identify as a woman?".
Usually this is the kind of stuff that you mention during the first few dates, way before sex. And this is when you explain everything to the person and ask them if they have question.
Asking a trans woman if she's a woman is a bad question, she would just answer yes, that wouldn't give you much information.
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On July 31 2013 05:33 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:25 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement. implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal. I didn't say that or imply it. I asked why it was necessary to define man, woman, male, female, etc. so specifically, is it so you don't accidentally sleep with someone of the same sex? Are you so afraid of this statistically negligible event happening that you feel the need to insult people who are different than you by saying "but seriously, you're not actually a woman"? Seeing as transgender terminology isnt the most relevant and important thing to most peoples live im not sure where the problem is in asking a trans woman if she actually is a woman. Or would you expect everyone to ask "were you born with the body and genetilia of a male, but identify as a woman?".
So...you're getting hot and heavy with a chick after a night at the bars. She's into you, you're into her. She goes back to your place. She's naked in your bed. You think she's super hot and can't wait to do the dirty. But before you can do anything you ask "were you born a female?" Given that trans people are like 2% of the population (someone smarter than me can weigh in if my estimation is bad) that's a really weird question to ask. You're gonna get blue balled a lot more often than you get to "stay true to your preferences."
I also don't think you understand how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays. You'd never be able to tell if a woman was born with a penis. Surgeons often make prettier vaginas than nature does. And the hormone therapy is comprehensive enough that pretty much all of the secondary sex characteristics are spot on. It's all expensive as balls, but it's damn good surgery.
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On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying.
So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis?
On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology.
You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human...
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EPT
