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On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman even post-op.
I am aware, I am trans. Most trans people don't have surgery btw, the main thing is hormone replacement (estrogen or testosterone).
The chromosome thing is not always a good indication also. For example I know a trans woman, was assigned boy at birth, but is still XX because of a condition. Gender identity is in the brain, not gene or organ.
But I get what you mean. Even though I am myself attracted to woman, I wouldn't be fully comfortable with a woman that has a penis, because I am just not attracted to that. But I wouldn't dismiss this person on the basis that she was born a boy or "not really a woman", but because I am not comfortable with her genital.
Of course, there can be legitimate reason (like wanting biological children), but I feel like it's most of time because of transphobia.
On July 31 2013 04:31 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:11 farvacola wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man.... You're correct, and that's also why it's our right to call you a bigot  Why would that make me a bigot? Only because I don't like something? So I love yoghurt and can now call anyone who doesn't like it a bigot? Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. That is wrong, chromosomes decide whether we are a boy or a girl, so a man who get's his sexual organ changed to that of a women, is indeed still a man, but with different sexual organs....
Nope, your gender is mostly independent from your chromosome.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_Female
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On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter.
you need to learn the definition of man, women, male, and female before you start calling anything scientific facts because it made you look really stupid.
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On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon.
though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid.
How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me.
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On July 31 2013 01:27 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 01:17 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 00:11 red_hq wrote:I've been looking for a news stroy on TL about the issues in russia right now and couldn't find one. This is kind of big and probably should be edited into the OP: Russia's Anti-Gay CrackdownBasically Russia is now allowed to detain foreign visitors and their own citizens on the premise of being gay. Also a lot of their pride parades end in bloodshed. The effects go beyond Russia too, this law makes it illegal for gays or single parents in countries with gay rights to adopt childern Russian children. It is illegal in Russia now to say being gay is okay as that is considered gay propiganda and you can be jailed for that. With them hosting the upcomming winter olympics tensions could get pretty high. On a lighter and more ironic note here are some SFW homoerotic pictures of Putin while he does his president stuff: http://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/16-homoerotic-photos-of-vladimir-putin Yea it is horrible. Also for the Olympic. I'm pretty sure they originally said that the law would be modified or lifted during the event to prevent backlash and stuff. But seems like they retracted that comment and gay athletes and visitor can be arrested :/ . ( source) Everything we have right now are statements from individual politicians. For example tagesschau.de quoted Dmitri Kosak today who said the law will be lifted. It's currently the headline. As Kosak is politically responsible for the olympics in Russia, I guess his opinion is more important though.
That's kind of disappointing like how China swept their problems under the rug for the olympics. I would rather a few people get hurt and a huge clusterfuck comes down on russia and makes them change their laws than no one at the olympics getting hurt and then the law being reinstated and all the LGBTQ people in Russia are oppressed forever.
Really sad and kinda scary considering my proximity to Russia.
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On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon.
This is some serious leftist newspeak. Fortunately it's not like that in reality.
We should differentiate between a person with genitals of one sex and brain structure of the opposite sex (and thus a valid reason to feel he/she is of the opposite sex), and someone having mental issues.
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On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me.
I didn't say I didn't understand that some people might prefer to only sleep with cis gendered people. I also didn't say trans women and cis women were entirely 100% identical. I said, saying that trans women aren't women based on 'chromosomes' was stupid.
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On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon.
How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be?
I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman?
I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women.
Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether.
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On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me.
Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed?
Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task.
And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow.
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On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether.
Some people are men, and some people are women, that is true. Men and trans men are men, and women and trans women are women. Chromosomes literally don't matter at all here, neither does any surgery that may or may not have been needed. In some specific times it might be necessary to differentiate between cis-women and trans-women or whatever, at which point one isn't a "man" because of "chromosomes".
On July 31 2013 04:43 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. This is some serious leftist newspeak. Fortunately it's not like that in reality.
Really? Because, I don't think you understand what I'm saying for you to post that.
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On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether.
It's not actually that simple.
quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction#Criticism_of_sex_vs._gender_terminology
The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation makes a distinction between sex and gender in their most recent Media Reference Guide. Sex is "the classification of people as male or female" at birth, based on bodily characteristics such as chromosomes, hormones, internal reproductive organs, and genitalia. Gender identity is "one's internal, personal sense of being a man or woman (or a boy or a girl).
Some feminist philosophers maintain that gender is totally undetermined by sex. See for example The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution, an important and widely influential feminist text.
...
However, some feminists go further and argue that neither sex nor gender are strictly binary concepts. Judith Lorber, for instance, has noted that many conventional indicators of sex are not sufficient to demarcate male from female. For example, not all women lactate, while some men do. Similarly, Suzanne Kessler, in a 1990 survey of medical specialists in pediatric intersexuality, found out that when a child was born with XY chromosomes but ambiguous genitalia, its sex was often determined according to the size of its penis. Thus, even if the sex/gender distinction holds, Lorber and Kessler suggest that the dichotomies of female/male and masculine/feminine are not themselves exhaustive. Lorber writes, "My perspective goes beyond accepted feminist views that gender is a cultural overlay that modifies physiological sex differences [...] I am arguing that bodies differ in many ways physiologically, but they are completely transformed by social practices to fit into the salient categories of a society, the most pervasive of which are 'female' and 'male' and 'women' and 'men.'"
Moreover, Lorber has alleged that there exists more diversity within the individual categories of sex and gender—female/male and feminine/masculine, respectively—than between them. Hence, her fundamental claim is that both sex and gender are social constructions, rather than natural kinds.
A comparable view has been advanced by Linda Zerilli, who writes, "[Monique] Wittig is critical of the sex/gender dichotomy in much feminist theory because such a dichotomy leaves unquestioned the belief that there is a 'core of nature which resists examination, a relationship excluded from the social in the analysis—a relationship whose characteristic is ineluctability in culture, as well as in nature, and which is the heterosexual relationship.' Putting sex in nature, gender in society, Wittig suggests, enabled feminists to interrogate the cultural construction of femininity; but this strategy also allowed dominant discourses to acknowledge the distinction without rethinking the foundations of their diverse theoretical enterprises and their concepts of subjectivity...."
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On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task.
A woman disliking circumsised penises is perfectly fine to me, if she doesnt find people who have had their tonsils removed attractive then good for her. Operating on a body does change something and theres nothing wrong with having preferences one way or the other.
Discriminating against someone and avoiding getting intimate with them are different things entirely. What is a meaningful difference is for everyone to decide themselves. And if it bothers someone that their partner once had a penis then i think thats fine. If he thinks thats amazing thats fine as well.
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On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me.
There are a lot of differences in brain structure between trans people and "normal" people and because it's morally unacceptable (not to mention really hard) to change the brain they change the body instead to match the brain. Trans women have a lot in common in the structure of the brain when compared to "normal" women as opposed to others of their same birth sex, you are right that there are differences but there are not as many as you would think either post op. Especially with MtF.
As for you last point it boils down to the whole associative morality or the Hitler's sweater thing. If you gave a person a normal looking sweater when they wanted one and then later told them it was one of Hitler's sweaters most people would be pretty disgusted but if they didn't know they wouldn't care. I understand it but can't really relate because I'm pretty liberal sexually.
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On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether.
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex
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On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether.
Being a woman or a man is not a choice. It is based on your gender identity, which is, for the majority of people, unchangeable.
So I didn't just wake up one day and chose to be transgender or a woman. I woke up and accepted it so that I could stop living with gender dysphoria and depression. It was never really a choice.
On July 31 2013 04:53 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. A woman disliking circumsised penises is perfectly fine to me, if she doesnt find people who have had their tonsils removed attractive then good for her. Operating on a body does change something and theres nothing wrong with having preferences one way or the other. Discriminating against someone and avoiding getting intimate with them are different things entirely. What is a meaningful difference is for everyone to decide themselves. And if it bothers someone that their partner once had a penis then i think thats fine. If he thinks thats amazing thats fine as well.
Yea sure, this is ok. I mean, this is not my point of view, but as long as you don't misgender or deny that person gender identity, I couldn't care less who you want to have sex with or not.
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On July 31 2013 04:53 red_hq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. As for you last point it boils down to the whole associative morality or the Hitler's sweater thing. If you gave a person a normal looking sweater when they wanted one and then later told them it was one of Hitler's sweaters most people would be pretty disgusted but if they didn't know they wouldn't care. I understand it but can't really relate because I'm pretty liberal sexually.
What if you were given a leather jacket and later found out it was made with human skin?I'd be disgusted, maybe youd still think its fine. The point is that everyone is different and has different preferences and views.
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On July 31 2013 04:53 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. A woman disliking circumsised penises is perfectly fine to me, if she doesnt find people who have had their tonsils removed attractive then good for her. Operating on a body does change something and theres nothing wrong with having preferences one way or the other. Discriminating against someone and avoiding getting intimate with them are different things entirely. What is a meaningful difference is for everyone to decide themselves. And if it bothers someone that their partner once had a penis then i think thats fine. If he thinks thats amazing thats fine as well.
You can justify your preference any way you want. I'm just explaining to you that "surgery" isn't really a good way to differentiate bodies since everyone has probably had it and that being weirded out by this theoretical body is rather irrational. I get that we aren't always rational. But pretending like you have some grand rational case for your preference won't get you far.
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On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether.
I don't understand why you need such clear definitions of man, woman, male, female or whatever the case. I've seen repeatedly on the last 2 pages people saying "yeah but just know that you're not an actual woman." Why is it important to make that distinction? Can't people just accept that others are different from them instead of coming up with some narrative so it fits their view of life?
What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement.
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On July 31 2013 04:56 Shodaa wrote:
Yea sure, this is ok. I mean, this is not my point of view, but as long as you don't misgender or deny that person gender identity, I couldn't care less who you want to have sex with or not.
Im not sure what you mean by misgender, but if you mean using the wrong terminology, calling a trans woman a man for example I'm afraid i disagree. Many people dont know what they should call what and id reckon for 99% of the population saying a trans woman is/was a man instead of male (i could be using the wrong words here even..) would be normal and frankly also understandable. Not everyone is familiar with these terms just as you may not be familiar with terms in other areas
On July 31 2013 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:53 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. A woman disliking circumsised penises is perfectly fine to me, if she doesnt find people who have had their tonsils removed attractive then good for her. Operating on a body does change something and theres nothing wrong with having preferences one way or the other. Discriminating against someone and avoiding getting intimate with them are different things entirely. What is a meaningful difference is for everyone to decide themselves. And if it bothers someone that their partner once had a penis then i think thats fine. If he thinks thats amazing thats fine as well. You can justify your preference any way you want. I'm just explaining to you that "surgery" isn't really a good way to differentiate bodies since everyone has probably had it and that being weirded out by this theoretical body is rather irrational. I get that we aren't always rational. But pretending like you have some grand rational case for your preference won't get you far.
Its not a good way or a bad way, a operated body is different from a non operated body period. I'm not sure what youre getting at. preference isnt rational so im not sure why i would be making a case for it to be so. The only rational thing im trying to say is that saying A is B and saying people who think A is A and B is B are bigots/sexist/whatever is stupid.
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On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow.
You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too.
If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view things differently and hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly.
If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves.
It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is.
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On July 31 2013 05:03 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:56 Shodaa wrote:
Yea sure, this is ok. I mean, this is not my point of view, but as long as you don't misgender or deny that person gender identity, I couldn't care less who you want to have sex with or not.
Im not sure what you mean by misgender, but if you mean using the wrong terminology, calling a trans woman a man for example I'm afraid i disagree. Many people dont know what they should call what and id reckon for 99% of the population saying a trans woman is/was a man instead of male (i could be using the wrong words here even..) would be normal and frankly also understandable. Not everyone is familiar with these terms just as you may not be familiar with terms in other areas
Misgendering would be like using female pronouns for a person, then finding out she was born a boy and using male pronoun even though she identify and look like a woman and that it would be impossible to know that this person was trans unless she told you.
But by your logic, it should be ok to call black people the n word because someone might not be aware of all the terminology and what is wrong/hurtful ? Of course not. Don't expect trans people to to be friendly if you insult them and unwilling to learn.
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EPT
